Could Milo speak at BYU?

[dahlia]

So, after the shameful behavior at Berkeley this past week, where the tolerant left destroyed private businesses, brutalized people, and damaged the campus to make sure a gay Republican would not speak, I got to wondering... Could Milo speak at any of the Church schools?

Thoughts:

1. Not invited, too controversial in toto.

2. Not invited, there might be violence.

3. Not invited, he's gay.

4. Not invited, uses too much profanity.

5. Invited, we give everyone a chance to speak and we educate our students to think critically about what they hear. 

6. Invited, a good conservative, tho he's a lot different than what we're used to.

7. Other.

What say you?

[Just_A_Guy]

I would say 4).  

Also--he's a jerk.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 and 4. 

I like and admire him. Don't agree with everything he has to say, but he can think for himself and is totally fearless. 

[Blackmarch]

If for some reason enough faculty that he was important enough to outweigh the cons i'd imagine he would be. I just don't see that happening.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

If for some reason enough faculty that he was important enough to outweigh the cons i'd imagine he would be. I just don't see that happening.

Can the English department at BYU discuss and analyze "controversial" books (Lolita, Ulysses, etc)? Or does all literature taught there have to be church approved?

[Blackmarch]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Can the English department at BYU discuss and analyze "controversial" books (Lolita, Ulysses, etc)? Or does all literature taught there have to be church approved?

no idea as i hardly have any experience with BYU. Don't know about church approved, but would definitely have to be BYU approved and that would definitely be influenced by the church leadership. I imagine the devil would be in the details of the how one would go about it, I don't think it would be absolutely impossible but one would have to have a really compelling reason. If you ever go into psychology or criminal investigation, or into health sciences theres some pretty nasty stuff out there that you come across just because you need to know about it.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

 If you ever go into psychology or criminal investigation, or into health sciences theres some pretty nasty stuff out there that you come across just because you need to know about it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to quote you on my BYU question. 


And I agree totally with what you said. You can't sugarcoat everything 24/7. Sometimes reality isn't pretty. 

[NeuroTypical]

He is rude, crass, vulgar, obscene, nasty, and uses shockingly offensive language to get his points across.  I think he's also quite vociferous against organized religion in general.  Of course BYU would never touch him with a 10 foot pole.  No matter how salient many of his points may be.

[Just_A_Guy]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Can the English department at BYU discuss and analyze "controversial" books (Lolita, Ulysses, etc)? Or does all literature taught there have to be church approved?

I think so long as there is redeeming literary/historical quality, the Church takes a relatively light touch.  (That's not a statement of a formal policy; it's just my impression based on experience.)  I remember reading "Things Fall Apart" and a translation of "A Favela" during my time there, as well as a profanity-laced Vietnam memoir entitled "A Slow Walk Through the Garden of Hell" that (if memory serves) recounted the author's visit to local brothels in gruesome detail.

I would like to think that MY's absence would be more due to the BYU student body's overwhelmingly not caring what he has to say, than because of any formal top-down ban.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[bytebear]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

He is rude, crass, vulgar, obscene, nasty, and uses shockingly offensive language to get his points across.  I think he's also quite vociferous against organized religion in general.  Of course BYU would never touch him with a 10 foot pole.  No matter how salient many of his points may be.

I dont think he's anti-religion at all.  He's a laps Catholic from what I understand.  His issues are cultural with Islam, and has some frightening statistics to back them up.  If anything he's a Constitutionalist, a defender of free speech, freedom of religion, and feels the left is truly destroying the experiment of liberty we call America. 

But he is a potty mouth, which won't go over well.  Sad, but I think the same of the Book of Mormon musical, which has a somewhat decent overall message, but presents it in terms that are unwatchable.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, dahlia said:

So, after the shameful behavior at Berkeley this past week, where the tolerant left destroyed private businesses, brutalized people, and damaged the campus to make sure a gay Republican would not speak, I got to wondering... Could Milo speak at any of the Church schools?

There are two types of speeches that are regularly given at BYU -- Forums and Devotionals.  Devotionals are specifically of a religious nature and are almost exclusively GAs.  Forums are not necessarily religious, but more scholarly in nature.  Many, though, recognizing BYU is a religious school, will interject religious issues of the day into their chosen topic.

One forum I attended was a fairly accomplished lawyer who came to discuss the legal conflicts of religious freedom vs other freedoms.  He pointed out the potential for this conflict to grow to become the premier issue of the nation.  He predicted that religious people would be legally required to accept the unacceptable.  Even back in those days courts were ruling that individuals could be forced into commerce -- a non-voluntary exchange -- that violated their religious convictions.  Today, it has become the premier issue.

Back to the topic, the forum speakers are chosen because they are very accomplished, very dignified, and very scholarly.  Milo is very popular.  That's all.  He's not accomplished (in classical terms).  He's not dignified.  He's not scholarly.  So, why would they ask him to speak?

[Guest MormonGator]

8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think so long as there is redeeming literary/historical quality, the Church takes a relatively light touch.  (That's not a statement of a formal policy; it's just my impression based on experience.)  I remember reading "Things Fall Apart" and a translation of "A Favela" during my time there, as well as a profanity-laced Vietnam memoir entitled "A Slow Walk Through the Garden of Hell" that (if memory serves) recounted the author's visit to local brothels in gruesome detail.

 

Thank you Jag. That makes me feel better. 

One of the best books I've ever read was "The Things They Carried" by Tim O'Brien. It is also a Vietnam war novel and it's also very  R rated. Read it in a war lit class in college. 

[dahlia]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

 

Back to the topic, the forum speakers are chosen because they are very accomplished, very dignified, and very scholarly.  Milo is very popular.  That's all.  He's not accomplished (in classical terms).  He's not dignified.  He's not scholarly.  So, why would they ask him to speak?

I went to Michigan in the 1970's, and then again in the late 1990's. We had a range of people speak, some of whom, especially the political types, were not 'dignified or scholarly,' but they were at the forefront of the Native American movement, student rights, women's movement, etc. People at the forefront of societal change may not be educated. They may not be dignified. Shoot, they may not even be men, but they have something to say. And, I would suggest that their very popularity is a reason to hear them out, at least once, to see what they are about. 

I didn't know Milo had a podcast, so when I found out, I listened to a couple of them. My biggest complaint is that he sounded like a lot of young people. I got his message in a couple of minutes and didn't really need to listen to much more. It's not the world I live in anymore. And yes, I admit to being a terrible ageist in that regard.

On the other hand, I also recently learned that Nigel Farage of the UK's Brexit movement has a radio show that is played on YouTube. Now that is man worth listening to. 

[NeuroTypical]

Nigel Farage rocks.  The crown prince of zingy rhetoric.

[Traveler]

 

It was my understanding that BYU is the only college that as an institution believes that all things should be taught and learned through the Holy Ghost.  This was one on the reasons I chose to attend BYU.  What I learned was that even though this principle was to be a standard – that such a standard is quite difficult for a university institution to maintain.  There were in my mind too many exceptions at BYU.  With that said – BYU is still the only university I know of that strives towards this standard (Southern Virginia University as a possible exception but I do not know that much about SVU myself).

I do not see any reason to invite anyone to present any concept at BYU that does not believe (or at least respects) that all things should be taught and learned through the power of the Holy Ghost.   It is my personal opinion that Milo is not a good candidate to speak at BYU.  But it is also my personal opinion that a person can prayerfully listen to and consider his ideas and the value of such in today’s world.  

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

On 2/5/2017 at 0:28 PM, dahlia said:

And, I would suggest that their very popularity is a reason to hear them out, at least once, to see what they are about.

Madonna, Britney Spears, Justin Beiber, Miley, Cyrus, Jenna Jameson, Jim Morrison, Tommy Chong, Chris Farley, Jimmy Hendrix...

Just because they are popular doesn't mean I care what they say about substantive matters.

[dahlia]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Madonna, Britney Spears, Justin Beiber, Miley, Cyrus, Jenna Jameson, Jim Morrison, Tommy Chong, Chris Farley, Jimmy Hendrix...

Just because they are popular doesn't mean I care what they say about substantive matters.

You're mixing apples and oranges. None of these are political figures - Milo is or at least aims to be. I don't care what 'celebrities' say about anything. Except Billy Corgan, who is doing a 30 day tour thru much of the Heartland and posting on FB. I care desperately about what he has to say about music, American rock and blues music history, and doing laundry in a laundromat. : )

[dahlia]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

It was my understanding that BYU is the only college that as an institution believes that all things should be taught and learned through the Holy Ghost.  This was one on the reasons I chose to attend BYU.  What I learned was that even though this principle was to be a standard – that such a standard is quite difficult for a university institution to maintain.  There were in my mind too many exceptions at BYU.  With that said – BYU is still the only university I know of that strives towards this standard (Southern Virginia University as a possible exception but I do not know that much about SVU myself).

I do not see any reason to invite anyone to present any concept at BYU that does not believe (or at least respects) that all things should be taught and learned through the power of the Holy Ghost.   It is my personal opinion that Milo is not a good candidate to speak at BYU.  But it is also my personal opinion that a person can prayerfully listen to and consider his ideas and the value of such in today’s world.  

 

The Traveler

This is fine by me. I wanted to know if there were limits to who gets invited. BYU is a church school. If the admin thinks all speakers should be guided by the spirit and have an LDS outlook (tho I'm not sure that's exactly what you're saying). Surely someone like Justice Clarence Thomas could speak, and he's not LDS. 

[NeuroTypical]

So, BYU did have Al Mohler come speak.  Hard-line Baptist Al Mohler.  He doesn't think Mormons are Christians, he doesn't think we're saved or follow the correct Jesus.  That said, he was there because he wanted our help, and he's got a track record of civil discourse.  Here's how he approached the elephant in the room:

"I do not believe that we are going to heaven together, but I do believe we may go to jail together,"

I've yet to see a Milo video or read a Milo transcript that has anything near the same level of civility, or any civility for that matter.  It's all rhetoric about how his side good their side bad.  The fact that many of his points are sailient is beside the point of what BYU will allow and not allow. 

[prisonchaplain]

A Milo visit at BYU, or any conservative religious school, would be pointless.  He fights secular liberalism with the tools of secular liberalism.  His provocations would just be awkward in a conservative religious setting.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, prisonchaplain said:

A Milo visit at BYU, or any conservative religious school, would be pointless.  He fights secular liberalism with the tools of secular liberalism.  His provocations would just be awkward in a conservative religious setting.

Even a conservative religious school needs to hear other points of view. We don't want to see conservative snowflakes (and yes, they do exist) who crumble and fall to pieces when they hear a different point of view.  

[prisonchaplain]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Even a conservative religious school needs to hear other points of view. We don't want to see conservative snowflakes (and yes, they do exist) who crumble and fall to pieces when they hear a different point of view.  

True...but Milo doesn't really present a different POV that makes sense at conservative schools. He throws liberal hypocrisies back in their faces, using their own sense of humor, their own vulgarities, their own sacred cows.  The equivalent for BYU would be to bring in folks from Sojourners, someone like Ron Sider or Tony Campolo (both liberal Christian thinkers, who traffic much in fulfilling ethics and God's will).

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, dahlia said:

You're mixing apples and oranges. None of these are political figures - Milo is or at least aims to be. I don't care what 'celebrities' say about anything. Except Billy Corgan, who is doing a 30 day tour thru much of the Heartland and posting on FB. I care desperately about what he has to say about music, American rock and blues music history, and doing laundry in a laundromat. : )

To continue the metaphor, I'd say that you first indicated we were talking about fruits.  Now that you heard my argument, you're changing it to apples and excluding oranges.  That's fine.  That simply reinforces my point.  "popularity alone" is not enough to say that we need to listen to them.  But that was what you said at first.

Now, we're narrowing it down to "popular political figures".  Ok.  Let's look at that.  When has BYU asked any guest speaker who was invited simply because he was a "popular political figure"?  I can't think of any.  But I haven't really kept tabs on them.  Can you think of any?

Some political figures (Like Dick Cheney) actually approached BYU and asked if he could give an address.  That's what I heard anyway.  But BYU doesn't just go and invite someone just because they were popular figures.  They invite someone because they believe they might have something that would be both educational and edifying to the student body.  I still don't think Milo would qualify.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

True...but Milo doesn't really present a different POV that makes sense at conservative schools. He throws liberal hypocrisies back in their faces, using their own sense of humor, their own vulgarities, their own sacred cows.  The equivalent for BYU would be to bring in folks from Sojourners, someone like Ron Sider or Tony Campolo (both liberal Christian thinkers, who traffic much in fulfilling ethics and God's will).

I know what you mean. Milo is certainly controversial. 

 

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, dahlia said:

This is fine by me. I wanted to know if there were limits to who gets invited. BYU is a church school. If the admin thinks all speakers should be guided by the spirit and have an LDS outlook (tho I'm not sure that's exactly what you're saying). Surely someone like Justice Clarence Thomas could speak, and he's not LDS. 

I think most of this discussion has been envisioning Milo as a potential BYU forum speaker, sponsored by administration.  But it's important to note, that's not the type of venue Milo has done so far.  Rather, individual student groups tend to independently invite him to come address a few dozen/couple hundred of them at their campus; and then the rest of the university gets the vapors and admin solemnly intones that they cannot guarantee the safety, blah blah blah.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Just_A_Guy