The biggest fear of exaltation

[person0]

I have family members and others who have touted speculation that a being such as Lucifer was necessary to the plan of salvation, as an opposition was needed in all things.  To this type of speculation, I generally respond by asking who tempted Lucifer?  If he is the only way we will face the needed opposition, what was the opposition force that enticed him to rebel in the first place?  Will one speculate that there is a 3rd party 'evil' god that does this?  I think not.  As was said:

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Satan is not required for Gods plan to exalt his children. 

Satan fell because as has been said:

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Men (and spirits) will always seek power in corruption.

If you read Moses 7 in greater context, it does appear to lead one to the conclusion @Rob Osborn is touting:

Quote

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;
34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.
35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.
36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.
37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?
38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.
39 And that which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment;
40 Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands.
(Moses 7) (emphasis added)

There is an exception though, the verse speaks of the wickedness of the people at the time of Enoch, not specifically the occurrence of Satan, nor does it speak specifically of the wickedness of the earth as a whole.  However, it is definitely reasonable to extrapolate to say that if all of God's creations would weep over the wickedness of the brethren of Enoch, then since we can assume there are those who are equally wicked in our time, the statement could apply to all ages of the earth and therefore the wicked people of the earth as a whole.  In this instance I do not believe that Rob is too far out of line, even though it is technically a speculative extrapolation.

So in conclusion here is my opinion:

• Lucifer as the devil was not needed in order for us to experience opposition sufficient to receive exaltation.  It is not doctrinal to believe that every mortal world must have a devil.  How is Lucifer's punishment just if God intentionally created him to an evil end?
• If Lucifer was able to choose wickedness in the pre-mortal realm and rebel against God, then in the vast expanse of eternity, others will have the same opportunity.  Of the countless spirit children born of God, it is highly probable that it will occur, although, possibly not with the same end result. (i.e. 1/3 host of heaven departing)
• While the fall of Lucifer was likely a rare occurrence, and one may conclude from authoritative sources that other earths might not have a being tempting them from the spirit realm, it is equally unreasonable to conclude that this would be the case for every other world, as agency to choose wickedness will exist from eternity to eternity.

Who's excited about all the answers we will get to all our imponderable questions once we enter into exaltation?

[Just_A_Guy]

I don't believe there are definite answers to these questions.  In The Great Divorce C.S. Lewis argues the that part of God's final salvation must involve the righteous becoming somehow immune to the misery of the wicked--else the wicked could guilt the righteous out of fully enjoying the felicity that is rightfully theirs. But conversely, in The God Who Weeps, Terryl and Fiona Givens draw on Lehi's "opposition in all things" teaching to argue that God's willingness to expose Himself to further sadness, makes the fullness of happiness He enjoys that much sweeter.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

How woyld you interpret those verses then?

That some of Enoch's brethren were the most wicked. Just like it says.

[The Folk Prophet]

19 minutes ago, person0 said:

In this instance I do not believe that Rob is too far out of line,

On the idea of our earth being the most wicked, true. And others have assumed the same.

Where he strays off course is the interpretation that Satan is an anomaly in all of eternity.

[Fether]

7 hours ago, person0 said:

Who's excited about all the answers we will get to all our imponderable questions once we enter into exaltation?

I already know everything 

[Rob Osborn]

8 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

On the idea of our earth being the most wicked, true. And others have assumed the same.

Where he strays off course is the interpretation that Satan is an anomaly in all of eternity.

Well, he really is an anomaly.

[Blackmarch]

23 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

We get to live like Heavenly Father and have a continuation of the seeds forever. With all those children and agency we are bound to have posterity who are like Satan and fall away into Outer Darkness. How can we enjoy exaltation to its fullest when we can lose so many children to sin? Where's the joy in that?

because all those who make it, will make the whole shindig worth it. Yes there will be pain, but it will not be painful forever.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Blackmarch

[The Folk Prophet]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, he really is an anomaly.

You don't know that.

[Rob Osborn]

30 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You don't know that.

I do know that. This is not an ordinary situation to have a war in heaven and a high angel to fall to lead a secret rebellion against Jesus. This is unprecedented. It is the very reason why wickedness on this earth is the worst in the history of God peopling earths.

Whats interesting to all of this is that it is this earth, of all other earths that God created through Jesus Christ, where Christ was born and resurrected from and the very earth where the final war with Satan will play out.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I do know that.

Oh. My mistake. I didn't realize you could see from all eternity to all eternity. In fact, it strikes me, that must mean you have been exalted. Perhaps we should be worshiping you and your all-knowingness. We could set up a church if you so command.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Oh. My mistake. I didn't realize you could see from all eternity to all eternity. In fact, it strikes me, that must mean you have been exalted. Perhaps we should be worshiping you and your all-knowingness. We could set up a church if you so command.

This is what scriptures and prophets say. And we already have set up churches on the scriptures and prophets.

[mordorbund]

10 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Oh. My mistake. I didn't realize you could see from all eternity to all eternity. In fact, it strikes me, that must mean you have been exalted. Perhaps we should be worshiping you and your all-knowingness. We could set up a church if you so command.

@Rob Osborn's version of exalted beings don't know the future - only probabilistic outcomes modeled on potential choices.

[The Folk Prophet]

13 hours ago, mordorbund said:

@Rob Osborn's version of exalted beings don't know the future - only probabilistic outcomes modeled on potential choices.

Right, by which I must presume that he has been exalted, because his understanding of probabilistic outcomes modeled on potential choices is, apparently, flawless.

[Rob Osborn]

56 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Right, by which I must presume that he has been exalted, because his understanding of probabilistic outcomes modeled on potential choices is, apparently, flawless.

According to your logic I already am exalted and have already peopled a billion worlds as a god at the same time that I uave not yet began to exist.

There must be a flow of events, of cause and effect. That can only happen in the present and it is not set in stone exactly which choices we will make until it unfolds.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

According to your logic

The word you meant was sarcasm. According to my sarcasm.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The word you meant was sarcasm. According to my sarcasm.