Abilities and inabilities of God and Spirits

[askandanswer]

Are there things that the Holy Ghost can do, by virtue of being a spirir, that God, because He has a body, cannot do? And are there things that God can do, because He has a body, that the Holy Ghost cannot do? And if the answer to either one of these questions is yes would that imply that the members of the Godhead are not one in ability and therefore not one in all things?

[CV75]

13 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Are there things that the Holy Ghost can do, by virtue of being a spirir, that God, because He has a body, cannot do? And are there things that God can do, because He has a body, that the Holy Ghost cannot do? And if the answer to either one of these questions is yes would that imply that the members of the Godhead are not one in ability and therefore not one in all things?

As long as they are one, They are one in ability and all things. Separately They are not able to accomplish certain things by Themselves individually, and nor would They want or expect to.

[Fether]

Heavenly Father can't dwell inside us.

this may be slightly off topic, but can someone explain how God is Omnipresent? (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/omnipresent)

Edited July 23, 2017 by Fether

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Fether said:

Heavenly Father can't dwell inside us.

this may be slightly off topic, but can someone explain how God is Omnipresent? (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/omnipresent)

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/light-light-of-christ.html?lang=eng&letter=L

Quote

Divine energy, power, or influence that proceeds from God through Christ and gives life and light to all things.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Guest

[Fether]

@Carborendum

Thanks!

Edited July 24, 2017 by Fether

[Jojo Bags]

On 7/22/2017 at 9:54 PM, askandanswer said:

Are there things that the Holy Ghost can do, by virtue of being a spirir, that God, because He has a body, cannot do? And are there things that God can do, because He has a body, that the Holy Ghost cannot do? And if the answer to either one of these questions is yes would that imply that the members of the Godhead are not one in ability and therefore not one in all things?

The Holy Ghost can possess you, whereas God cannot since he has a resurrected body.  A spectacular example of this is when Joseph Smith performed the very first miracle in this dispensation by casting out a devil from Newel Knight.

Quote

When the Prophet reached the house Newel was in a frightful condition. His features and limbs were twisted out of shape and he was being thrown violently around the room. A number of persons had come, but they knew not what to do. Joseph at length caught his hand and Newel immediately spoke and begged the Prophet to cast the devil out of him. Joseph rebuked the evil spirit, and in the name of Jesus Christ commanded it to depart. Newel was instantly freed from it and declared that he saw the devil come out of him and disappear.

He was in his natural state only for a moment. Another power seized him and raised him to the ceiling where he remained for a time unconscious. But this was the Spirit of God, not of the devil and when he came to himself he told of a heavenly vision of unspeakable beauty that had been given him.

Those present in the room were astonished. They had seen the destroying power of Satan and the enlightening power of God. They had beheld a miracle such as the world had not seen since the time of the Apostles, and they were convinced that Joseph held the same power as did they of old.

The Latter Day Prophet: Young People’s History of Joseph Smith, Pgs. 41-42

 

[Snigmorder]

On 7/22/2017 at 8:54 PM, askandanswer said:

Are there things that the Holy Ghost can do, by virtue of being a spirir, that God, because He has a body, cannot do? And are there things that God can do, because He has a body, that the Holy Ghost cannot do? And if the answer to either one of these questions is yes would that imply that the members of the Godhead are not one in ability and therefore not one in all things?

The Holy Ghost can dwell in all people. If the Father's person were to occupy the exact space which my body occupies. I would explode and die.

[Vort]

6 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

The Holy Ghost can possess you

I believe this is a misleading description of the function of the Holy Ghost. "Possession" is done by evil spirits, not by holy spirits.

[askandanswer]

On 24/07/2017 at 3:38 AM, CV75 said:

As long as they are one, They are one in ability and all things. Separately They are not able to accomplish certain things by Themselves individually, and nor would They want or expect to.

I can appreciate the logic behind this statement, and it seems to make sense, but is it consistent with our doctrine? Two possible, (and at this point I'm only saying possible, not actual) inconsistencies are the idea that God is all powerful and can do anything - but perhahps He cant' dwell within us like the Spirit can -  and the idea that the Godhead are one in all things, but perhaps They are not one in ability.

[zil]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I can appreciate the logic behind this statement, and it seems to make sense, but is it consistent with our doctrine? Two possible, (and at this point I'm only saying possible, not actual) inconsistencies are the idea that God is all powerful and can do anything - but perhahps He cant' dwell within us like the Spirit can -  and the idea that the Godhead are one in all things, but perhaps They are not one in ability.

Am I incapable of pounding a nail into a board because I need a hammer to do so?

[CV75]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I can appreciate the logic behind this statement, and it seems to make sense, but is it consistent with our doctrine? Two possible, (and at this point I'm only saying possible, not actual) inconsistencies are the idea that God is all powerful and can do anything - but perhahps He cant' dwell within us like the Spirit can -  and the idea that the Godhead are one in all things, but perhaps They are not one in ability.

I think neither the Father, Son nor Holy Ghost can be omnipotent with regards to the immortality and eternal life of man without each other, working in perfectly. Neither the Son nor Holy Ghost can function at all toward this work and glory without the direction of the Father, and He cannot accomplish His work without Them. They each may seem omnipotent relative to us, but God gave us our agency, and so is not omnipotent in that micro-sphere (He will not override our agency).

Our doctrine contains such principles as: the Son can do nothing without the Father, or only does what He sees the Father do; the Only Begotten Son in the flesh had to atone for our sins and not the Father; we have both a Comforter and a Second Comforter, etc. The Father manifests Himself personally in the Celestial Kingdom but not in the Telestial; the Holy Ghost administers that kingdom.

I think They become one in ability only when They are united. For example, the Father delivered all things into the Son's hands, and the Holy Ghost reveals the other Two to mortals (whether in bearing witness of the Father and the Son or in quickening the beholder to see Them).

[person0]

28 minutes ago, zil said:

Am I incapable of pounding a nail into a board because I need a hammer to do so?

I really appreciate this line of thinking, and I think this is how we should think about things most of the time.  It is the same context in which we say that such and such president of the USA accomplished x/y/z thing, or such and such person built x/y/z building; those things were not accomplished alone, but it is still that person, the decision maker, or 'man in charge' who receives the acclaim for the accomplishment.

I also think that understanding the technical truth is valuable.  To my understanding the technical truth is that there are some things God is unable to do, not because he lacks the power to do it, but because the power to do it doesn't exist.  I outlined this concept in one of my first posts in the forum about God's omnipotence.

9 hours ago, askandanswer said:

but is it consistent with our doctrine?

My response above applies here as well.  Yes, it is consistent with our doctrine to believe that God is omnipotent and that yet there are things He is technically unable to do, or unable to accomplish all on His own.  I believe this concept would fully address the conundrum you presented.

[Traveler]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm   I am speculating that there is too much speculation going on in this thread.

 

The Traveler

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, zil said:

Am I incapable of pounding a nail into a board because I need a hammer to do so?

Zil, could you elaborate on this please? I guess I am being a little slow this morning, but I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I appreciate the comment/elaboration of @person0 above but I suspect my understanding would increase a bit more if you would be kind enough to share a little more.

[zil]

25 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Zil, could you elaborate on this please? I guess I am being a little slow this morning, but I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I appreciate the comment/elaboration of @person0 above but I suspect my understanding would increase a bit more if you would be kind enough to share a little more.

I'm not sure how to clarify it further.  Therefore, you're going to get rambling.  You wrote:

14 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I can appreciate the logic behind this statement, and it seems to make sense, but is it consistent with our doctrine? Two possible, (and at this point I'm only saying possible, not actual) inconsistencies are the idea that God is all powerful and can do anything - but perhahps He cant' dwell within us like the Spirit can -  and the idea that the Godhead are one in all things, but perhaps They are not one in ability.

...which implies that you're wondering if "omnipotence" can really be called "omnipotence" if one needs to do something in a specific way (e.g. use the Holy Spirit to do what the Holy Spirit does, or use a hammer (or other tool) to pound a nail).

My answer is that one's power is not diminished because one needs to use a tool (or specific technique, or whatever).

IMO, the idea that God has to be able to do everything (including the impossible) with no tools, rules, agents, etc. - 100% himself (is that a limitation?) - is akin to the sectarian notion of God being "other" and immaterial (or whatever it is they call it).  It's an artificial construct imagined up in place of faith and reason.  One might say: "A perfected man could never have infinite capacity - men are finite in size, shape, and capacity - therefore God cannot be a perfected man and still be omnipotent or omnipresent; He must be something other."  There's no logic in that conclusion, only a refusal to believe that man can be raised to infinite capacity (which is no more far-fetched than believing in that "otherness" idea), and a refusal to consider that maybe the definition of "omni" and "potent" and "present" should be reconsidered.

If one insists on believing that tools, rules, agents, techniques are a limitation and that any God who needs them is not omniscient, then one would also have to believe that it's perfectly OK for God to sin - cuz if He can't sin, He's not omnipotent.  The whole thing is artificial and preposterous.

Omnipotent simply means having all power.  There's nothing in the word to suggest that the power must not involve knowledge, understanding, and the use of tools, rules, agents, etc.  Anything outside the scope of "all" is excluded (i.e. if a power doesn't exist, it is not part of "all power" and a lack of this non-existent power does not make the one from whom it is lacking suddenly non-omnipotent).  Thus, if it's impossible for an exalted being to "dwell in" (whatever that means) a mortal, then for God to not have this power is not a limitation, as it is outside the scope of "all".

Meanwhile, on this specific topic, I'm not 100% convinced that the Holy Ghost necessarily enters the physical space of any mortal being.  From scripture, it appears that spirit bodies are as bounded as ours.  I suppose the Spirit could move really quickly from mortal to mortal, but why?  I suspect instead that the Spirit is able to perform his duties via the Light of Christ (or something similar), a power which flows from God to each of us and keeps us all connected.

There, there's a bunch of wild speculation and deduction for you.  Maybe if you turn it upside down it will make more sense.

[zil]

Just now, zil said:

My answer is that one's power is not diminished because one needs to use a tool (or specific technique, or whatever).

The nail gets pounded whether it's done with a hammer or a fist of iron or the flat side of a wrench.  The power to drive the nail is present regardless.

[askandanswer]

On 7/26/2017 at 5:17 AM, zil said:

I'm not sure how to clarify it further.  Therefore, you're going to get rambling.  You wrote:

...which implies that you're wondering if "omnipotence" can really be called "omnipotence" if one needs to do something in a specific way (e.g. use the Holy Spirit to do what the Holy Spirit does, or use a hammer (or other tool) to pound a nail).

My answer is that one's power is not diminished because one needs to use a tool (or specific technique, or whatever).

IMO, the idea that God has to be able to do everything (including the impossible) with no tools, rules, agents, etc. - 100% himself (is that a limitation?) - is akin to the sectarian notion of God being "other" and immaterial (or whatever it is they call it).  It's an artificial construct imagined up in place of faith and reason.  One might say: "A perfected man could never have infinite capacity - men are finite in size, shape, and capacity - therefore God cannot be a perfected man and still be omnipotent or omnipresent; He must be something other."  There's no logic in that conclusion, only a refusal to believe that man can be raised to infinite capacity (which is no more far-fetched than believing in that "otherness" idea), and a refusal to consider that maybe the definition of "omni" and "potent" and "present" should be reconsidered.

If one insists on believing that tools, rules, agents, techniques are a limitation and that any God who needs them is not omniscient, then one would also have to believe that it's perfectly OK for God to sin - cuz if He can't sin, He's not omnipotent.  The whole thing is artificial and preposterous.

Omnipotent simply means having all power.  There's nothing in the word to suggest that the power must not involve knowledge, understanding, and the use of tools, rules, agents, etc.  Anything outside the scope of "all" is excluded (i.e. if a power doesn't exist, it is not part of "all power" and a lack of this non-existent power does not make the one from whom it is lacking suddenly non-omnipotent).  Thus, if it's impossible for an exalted being to "dwell in" (whatever that means) a mortal, then for God to not have this power is not a limitation, as it is outside the scope of "all".

Meanwhile, on this specific topic, I'm not 100% convinced that the Holy Ghost necessarily enters the physical space of any mortal being.  From scripture, it appears that spirit bodies are as bounded as ours.  I suppose the Spirit could move really quickly from mortal to mortal, but why?  I suspect instead that the Spirit is able to perform his duties via the Light of Christ (or something similar), a power which flows from God to each of us and keeps us all connected.

There, there's a bunch of wild speculation and deduction for you.  Maybe if you turn it upside down it will make more sense.

Thanks for your "ramblings" @zil I find them to be helpful and thought provoking and appreciate the time you've taken to set out your thoughts. 

On another matter, it seems that the saying "Am I incapable of pounding a nail into a board because I need a hammer to do so" is saying pretty much the same thing as "there's more than one way to skin a cat." I had thought that might be the case but i wasn't sure.