Unexpected Consequences

[zil]

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

More evil than not refrigerating ketchup?

RIght?  Restaurants that don't keep ketchup refrigerated and bring it cold with your order should be fined!

[Guest MormonGator]

24 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

More evil than not refrigerating ketchup?

More evil than @mirkwoods terrible music taste. 

No, I'm sorry @Carborendum that was below the belt. I apologize. 

[mirkwood]

40 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

More evil than @mirkwoods terrible music taste. 

No, I'm sorry @Carborendum that was below the belt. I apologize. 

You're the one who had this as his song for his first dance when he got married.

 

 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

25 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

You're the one who had this as his song for his first dance when he got married.

 

 

 

hahahahahahahahaha

It was actually Nine Inch Nails "We're In This Together Now", but anyway .

I had a college roommate who would tear up to this song. That and (are you sitting down?) "Dust in the Wind" by Kansas. 

@mirkwood we tease each other about music taste, but even I would never, ever cross the line by saying you like Kansas. 

[mirkwood]

 

31 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

hahahahahahahahaha

It was actually Nine Inch Nails "We're In This Together Now", but anyway .

I had a college roommate who would tear up to this song. That and (are you sitting down?) "Dust in the Wind" by Kansas. 

@mirkwood we tease each other about music taste, but even I would never, ever cross the line by saying you like Kansas. 

lol

[Traveler]

 

Let me add some things as this thread continues.  Intelligence is easy to define but is actually very complex.  There have been a lot of debates and discussion about behaviors being nature or nurture.   Intelligence by scientific definition is the ability to change behavior.  Thus, intelligence becomes involved in the discussion of nature or nurture.   I attempted to point out that there are different levels of learning (learning being a critical element of intelligence).  At this point I must admit that I have some notions I am more found of than others concerning intelligence and learning methods.  There are very distinct levels of learning – the first is called the lowest level of learning.  It is the conditioned response to cognitive stimulation.  This comes from two kinds of experiences – one experience I called the “monkey see monkey do”.  This is the lowest level of passing learned information one individual to another.  The other experience is what Pavlov identified as stimulus and associated response.  I pointed out that children are wired to learn using this type of or lowest level of learning method.  They learn more quickly from this method than do adults. 

Freud suggested that virtually all adult psychological problems have root in developments during childhood experiences.  I am suggesting a link between parental mentoring (teaching) that are very difficult or impossible to change once a person becomes an adult.   I do believe humans are an intelligent species and are capable of changing behaviors – a good example is portrayed in the movie “A Beautiful Mind”.  But we must realize that such intelligent adjustments are extremely rare.  From a religious stand point we are told that parents that fail to teach children basic behaviors will be held accountable for the sins the child commits so associated throughout the life of the child. 

I am suggesting that during the formative years – that a child develops an intelligence scaffolding that allows them to distinguish good from evil and create a foundation for guilt/remorse, empathy, emotional attachments, charity (opposite of narcissism), honesty or in essence the ability to learn and solve complex association problems without becoming a psychopath.   In short I am not sure a little child will feel sorry or concern for causing another pain – unless they are taught or trained to.  And that this lesson is more difficlt or even impossible as an adult.

I am convinced that we are entering a time and circumstance when the notion of parents being responsible for basic intelligent scaffolding to distinguish good from evil is being adversely challenged and that society is in grave danger for it.  The idea to wait until a child is adult enough to identify good from evil before teaching a child what is good and evil (including good and evil gender roles) – will have unexpected and unintended consequences.  

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Let me add some things as this thread continues. 

Wait... The thread was continuing?  I thought we had thoroughly hijacked it.

[Guest MormonGator]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Wait... The thread was continuing?  I thought we had thoroughly hijacked it.

To claim that I or @mirkwood have EVER done something so horrendous as hijack a thread is a grave insult to our character. How dare you. 

[Sunday21]

5 hours ago, zil said:

RIght?  Restaurants that don't keep ketchup refrigerated and bring it cold with your order should be fined!

Warm vs cold ketchup is a thing? Is this like having to have ice in your drink? (Which puzzles me! You know, why?)

[zil]

5 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Warm vs cold ketchup is a thing? Is this like having to have ice in your drink? (Which puzzles me! You know, why?)

Cold ketchup, hot fries.  Of course it's a thing.  Maybe we should fine you too.

If you prefer your alcohol neat, that's your business, but maybe you need to talk to your bishop about a Word of Wisdom refresher...  (Puzzling indeed.)

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

Cold ketchup, hot fries.  Of course it's a thing.  Maybe we should fine you too.

If you prefer your alcohol neat, that's your business, but maybe you need to talk to your bishop about a Word of Wisdom refresher...  (Puzzling indeed.)

:: ahem :: this coming from the girl who adds a "special" something to her orange juice in the morning. 

[NeuroTypical]

33 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Warm vs cold ketchup is a thing? Is this like having to have ice in your drink? (Which puzzles me! You know, why?)

Apparently, if you're from South of 1300 East and live in Sandy, it's not a thing.  Such people may never know the anxiety they provoke in their more culturally-refined ketchup-refrigerating spouses.

[Sunday21]

7 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Apparently, if you're from South of 1300 East and live in Sandy, it's not a thing.  Such people may never know the anxiety they provoke in their more culturally-refined ketchup-refrigerating spouses.

You guys are all ladeedaa! White glove wearing Mormon types!  Refrigerated ketchup! 

[Mike]

14 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am convinced that we are entering a time and circumstance when the notion of parents being responsible for basic intelligent scaffolding to distinguish good from evil is being adversely challenged and that society is in grave danger for it.  The idea to wait until a child is adult enough to identify good from evil before teaching a child what is good and evil (including good and evil gender roles) – will have unexpected and unintended consequences.  

Oh. So was an appeal to science to warrant an argument against LGBT really what this is about? 

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Oh. So was an appeal to science to warrant an argument against LGBT really what this is about? 

Absolutely NOT!!!

It is an argument for something called responsible and intelligent parenting coupled with teaching coherent stable values as something necessary for a stable and sustainable society.  

 

The Traveler

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Absolutely NOT!!!

It is an argument for something called responsible and intelligent parenting coupled with teaching coherent stable values as something necessary for a stable and sustainable society.  

 

The Traveler

Your capitalization and exclamation points connote annoyance with my question, but I'm gratified that you responded to me.   I confess to you that although I was interested in your OP from the start I have had difficulty with its development, and I'd like to read some specific examples (only two for now) of what you observe to be adverse challenges to the notion of parents being responsible for basic intelligent scaffolding to distinguish good from evil (and how these challenges differ from past centuries). Then I'd like to read your specific ideas for dealing with those challenges. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Mike

[Mike]

On 7/28/2017 at 11:12 AM, anatess2 said:

Jordan Peterson, professor of psychology, explained this in his interview with Joe Rogan - the line of between good and evil is in every person's heart.  The capacity for evil, therefore, is an instinctive presence in each of us that ensures our survival as a species.  As a Mormon, I see this as the natural man.  A lot of times, soldiers who get PTSD after coming home get this mental break when they can't reconcile their capacity to do terrible things that surfaces in war with being a good person.  A lot of times, great leaders are those who recognizes their capacity to do evil and realizes they can channel that power for good to triumph.

 

Are you referring to "the evolutionary basis for Good vs. Evil Conflict" Joe Rogan segment on Youtube? Can you name names and events wherein great leaders channeled their capacity to do evil for good to triumph? (I'm seeking to understand before I seek to be understood.  )

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Are you referring to "the evolutionary basis for Good vs. Evil Conflict" Joe Rogan segment on Youtube? Can you name names and events wherein great leaders channeled their capacity to do evil for good to triumph? (I'm seeking to understand before I seek to be understood.  )

I love Joe Rogan. His podcasts are great for road trips. 

[zil]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Your capitalization and exclamation points connote annoyance with my question

From here, they connote emphasis.  Just pointing this out so you can consider that your personal feelings may be shading your interpretation...

[Mike]

2 hours ago, zil said:

From here, they connote emphasis.  Just pointing this out so you can consider that your personal feelings may be shading your interpretation...

I welcome you pointing that out to me. I freely admit that my personal feelings often shade my interpretation, even when I do try to be objective. You and I haven't interacted much. So let me try as objectively as I can at the moment to express my viewpoint if you're interested. I've been under the understanding that it is conventional netiquette to add emphasis with one exclamation point as opposed to three, and that capitalization of an entire word has come to mean yelling or shouting. (I had it pointed out to me more than once and I decided to discontinue it on my own for the sake of avoiding misunderstanding.)  That's probably the most salient reason I interpreted @Traveler's use of it to be a personal-feelings response to my original question, and that my question was annoying to him. I'm hopeful my explanation goes toward reducing misinterpretation all-around. Anyway, I take your point. Thanks. 

P.S. @Traveler, if you're reading this I hope it serves to avoid friction.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Mike

[askandanswer]

On 29/07/2017 at 5:54 AM, Mike said:

In reality the MTC is not an exception. The MTC demonstrates the reality of the norm. What is exceptional about the MTC is that it incorporates the Spirit, but the essentials of human language-learning are still there and utilized with a degree of focus metaphorically like using a magnifying glass and sunlight. When you say it needs to be pointed out that language learning is not just learning how to say a sentence..., you are, whether you realize it or not, referring to an ideal and to a goal. What I described is more akin to the reality of the process. The MTC utilizes the same essential drills that a parent utilizes with children and that all humans must begin with such as learning how to say a sentence--to borrow back your term. 

I don't doubt your sincerity, but I'm skeptical of the numbers your comment earlier (about non-Filipino missionaries speaking with a native accent) might lead us to believe. Similar to the reality that it takes years for most children to speak their own language in a way that people outside their immediate family can understand them most missionaries arrive in their assignments unable to speak fluently (a pretty subjective word in itself) and those who leave their assignments two years later being able to fool a native listener (about accents) are rare indeed. (Don't make the mistake of misinterpreting what I'm saying as a denial of the reality of the gift of tongues, or of teaching by the spirit. That isn't what I'm doing here). 

In any event, keep trying to convince me that a child learns language differently than an adult does. You haven't succeeded yet. The successful children and the successful adults learn language very similarly utilizing the same essential skills. The adults who do it differently are exceptions to the rule. (Hahaha, don't say it. I already know I haven't convinced you, either. But we're having fun, right?  )

 

 

 

I'm quite familiar with what Tess is talking about here - I'm not well acquainted with all that many RMs who served in the Phippines but the ones that I do know, when speaking Filipino, think, speak and sound like Filipinos. 

I've come across a fair bit of material that indicates that the brains if new-borns and infants comes pre-programmed to learn language, and that this pre-programming tends to become less effective from about the age of 8. Its this sort of information that leads teachers of language to believe that its easier to teach a second language to a young child than to an adult. But I'm not particularly interested in this line of argument so I'm not going to bother chasing up any other sources - they're out there if you look around.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947444/

[Guest]

On 7/28/2017 at 7:35 PM, MormonGator said:

To claim that I or @mirkwood have EVER done something so horrendous as hijack a thread is a grave insult to our character. How dare you. 

How dare YOU, sir, treat Traveler this way.  Here he had a perfectly good thread about... uhmm... What was it again?

[SpiritDragon]

On 7/28/2017 at 3:57 PM, MormonGator said:

hahahahahahahahaha

It was actually Nine Inch Nails "We're In This Together Now", but anyway .

I had a college roommate who would tear up to this song. That and (are you sitting down?) "Dust in the Wind" by Kansas. 

@mirkwood we tease each other about music taste, but even I would never, ever cross the line by saying you like Kansas. 

I get teary eyed with those songs too  (kidding of course)

I do believe I saw @mirkwood psyching himself up for the shooting range by listening to Supertramp 

But I won't forget the time I found @MormonGator belting out all the words to every song on his well-worn Avril Lavigne album 

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

 

But I won't forget the time I found @MormonGator belting out all the words to every song on his well-worn Avril Lavigne album 

@MormonGator and I thought you couldn't disappoint me any more then you already are.

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

I do believe I saw @mirkwood psyching himself up for the shooting range by listening to Supertramp 

 

Ban button is around here somewhere...