Few Will Find Celestial Glory

[goor_de]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

No, but frankly some of your posts come off as though you think we’ve been.  And it’s frankly it’s becoming a little irritating.

When people feel their sincere attempts to help are being treated flippantly, they are wont to respond in kind.  

 

I asked a few questions. You can not do this here

[zil]

32 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I like Ike.

Have you informed your wife?

[Overwatch]

Lyrics

1. 1. Have I done any good in the world today?
   Have I helped anyone in need?
   Have I cheered up the sad and made someone feel glad?
   If not, I have failed indeed.
   Has anyone's burden been lighter today
   Because I was willing to share?
   Have the sick and the weary been helped on their way?
   When they needed my help was I there?
2. (Chorus)
   Then wake up and do something more
   Than dream of your mansion above.
   Doing good is a pleasure, a joy beyond measure,
   A blessing of duty and love.
3. 2. There are chances for work all around just now,
   Opportunities right in our way.
   Do not let them pass by, saying, "Sometime I'll try,"
   But go and do something today.
   'Tis noble of man to work and to give;
   Love's labor has merit alone.
   Only he who does something helps others to live.
   To God each good work will be known.
4. Text and music: Will L. Thompson, 1847-1909, alt.

I think perhaps someone might be getting consumed by what their final reward will be. May I suggest taking each day one day at a time and closing out each session on bended knee to our Heavenly Father. Getting absorbed by future reward thoughts seem to do more harm than good, in my opinion. Rejoice in your daily successes and repent and try again with your failures. God is far more loving than most people believe and yes, He does expect us to strive daily to be our best. Let's return the love by being grateful to Him and striving with greater resolve each day to serve Him.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Overwatch

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

I think perhaps someone might be getting consumed by what their final reward will be. May I suggest taking each day one day at a time and closing out each session on bended knee to our Heavenly Father. Getting absorbed by future reward thoughts seem to do more harm than good, in my opinion. Rejoice in your daily successes and repent and try again with your failures. God is far more loving than most people believe and yes, He does expect us to strive daily to be our best. Let's return the love by being grateful to Him and striving with greater resolve each day to serve Him.

Exactly.  

[Anddenex]

8 hours ago, goor_de said:

 

who guarantees that we will not relapse in the sky

This is truly a simple question - "you" do. I would invite you to read the Book of Mormon all the way through focusing on two elements: moral agency and perfection.

[goor_de]

2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This is truly a simple question - "you" do. I would invite you to read the Book of Mormon all the way through focusing on two elements: moral agency and perfection.

 

man is not a machine and then it goes automatically

 

 

a human can change his opinion

many do it

 

[goor_de]

2 minutes ago, goor_de said:

 

man is not a machine and then it goes automatically

a human can change his opinion

many do it

the devil has done it, for example

 

[Anddenex]

6 hours ago, goor_de said:

 

People are not a cake. they are already changing or the free will in the sky is turned off

Two fallacies within this line of thinking:

1) Change is not required for free will to exist

2) Free will doesn't turn off because you do not change

Evidence of free will is opposition, or simply the presence of opposition. As God is an unchanging being, and we know his free will exists, it is self-evident free will or agency or moral agency doesn't require "change" otherwise the Savior could have never been perfect.

[Just_A_Guy]

51 minutes ago, goor_de said:

 

I asked a few questions. You can not do this here

It’s not about your asking questions.  It’s about your blowing off people’s answers with two-line platitudes that fail to meaningfully engage with the answer that was offered. 

Your posts give every indication of being insincere.

[Anddenex]

11 minutes ago, goor_de said:

man is not a machine and then it goes automatically

a human can change his opinion

many do it

 

We are in agreement that [humans] are not machines, which is irrelevant to the question I responded to. Humans can "change" as humans can choose not to change, thus again, "you" guarantee (personal accountability and responsibility) if you change or do not change.

It is a fallacy to believe that because we have free will or agency or moral agency that this must mean we "must" change.

No one here is debating the human opportunity to change. If we have the ability to choose to change, then we have the ability to choose to not change or to continue the path we know to be good.

These are really simple tenets of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[goor_de]

10 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It’s not about your asking questions.  It’s about your blowing off people’s answers with two-line platitudes that fail to meaningfully engage with the answer that was offered. 

Your posts give every indication of being insincere.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 

I am in conformity with the script

Edited September 24, 2018 by goor_de

[zil]

4 hours ago, goor_de said:

I am in conformity with the script

Maybe you should just post in German - in complete sentences - and let us run it through a translation engine.

[goor_de]

21 minutes ago, zil said:

Maybe you should just post in German - in complete sentences - and let us run it through a translation engine.

no,I love short

[zil]

1 minute ago, goor_de said:

no,I love short

I recommend Twitter, then - they like short too.

[goor_de]

4 minutes ago, zil said:

I recommend Twitter, then - they like short too.

no, i am a serious man

[zil]

8 minutes ago, goor_de said:

no, i am a serious man

Uh huh.

[goor_de]

11 minutes ago, zil said:

Äh huh.

dead serious 

[Just_A_Guy]

6 hours ago, goor_de said:

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 

I am in conformity with the script

Nay nay.

[clbent04]

27 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Nay nay.

Did someone say Shanaynay?

Edited September 24, 2018 by clbent04

[Just_A_Guy]

My eyes!  Oh, my eyes!

[clbent04]

3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

My eyes!  Oh, my eyes!

That’s why happens when you summon the Shanaynay!

[let’s roll]

On 9/23/2018 at 5:07 AM, goor_de said:

 

then is earth life superfluous?

Nay.

[Vort]

6 hours ago, goor_de said:

dead serious 

Völlig ernst! Völlig, I tell you!

(The initial "v" is pronounced "f", and the umlauted "ö" sounds similar to the English "short u". Don't you just love how sneakily German ends up sounding like English? Full of cognates, but very different cognates from what you'd get in French or Spanish or Italian. It's enough to make you think that German is a part of the English language family.  )

[Brayden]

People have a hard time believing that few will be exalted, and that even apostles might not make it. There are so many things that suggest it, and we could easily go into depth with quotes and references on any of these. But even high level, here are 30 supporting ideas, or reasons why I believe it:
1. God says it, even that “few” will find the path to exaltation (not even find exaltation, but few will even find the path) in section 132.
2. God says that the hosts of the Telestial, or bottom kingdom, will be as numerous as the sands of the seashore and stars in the firmament in section 76.
3. James E Talmage wrote in Jesus the Christ that the call to the holy apostleship is no guarantee of celestial glory. And many have taught that the apostles and prophets are not infallible. 
4. In 3 Nephi 28, 3 Nephite apostles are “more blessed”, have different desires, are promised different eternal blessings, and even the names of the kingdoms they are promised are different than the other 9 apostles. Christ has a similar conversation with Peter and John in D&C 7
5. The wording of those kingdoms are consistent with other scripture that speak of the celestial kingdom and terrestrial kingdom. 
6. The saints were told in section 84 that they were ALL under condemnation until they bring forth fruit meet for the Father’s kingdom (celestial kingdom).
7. We have since been told that we need to lift that condemnation… so that lasted at least 150ish years (acknowledging that individuals may have been fine. Joseph was promised exaltation, the Colesville saints were sealed up by Joseph to their exaltation.)
8. The requirements for celestial glory are very high, even abiding celestial law (including keeping all the covenants, even the ones made in the temple)
9. Ask good, temple recommend holding saints how well we keep the covenants made in the temple (reminding them of the law of consecration if needed) and the consensus is that we don’t keep them… and we know that’s what’s required for celestial glory!
10. We are to avoid all unholy and impure practices (one of the required covenants for celestial glory) and we have been taught 60+ times by apostles and prophets to refrain  from media that is violent, vulgar, immodest, immoral, and especially pornographic in any way… yet when I talk about that I will ask people how many they know who live by that standard and the most common response is zero, sometimes people say they know one. Few have said anything else. … but just watch. It’s easy to see that most Latter-day Saints, ant least around me (and around the missionaries I have talked with from around the world) don’t live that way.
11. It is clear that as a whole we are not keeping the law of consecration (also required for celestial glory) for there are still rich and poor among us. 
12. The Lord says that the church is wicked haven’t learned to be obedient, haven’t brought forth fruit meet for the father’s Kingdom, etc. in the doctrine and covenants
13. The history of God’s people rejecting higher law is an astonishing portion of the time. We know of few instances where they kept higher law. Why would we assume we are any different?
14. It is stressed that this mortal life is the time for us to prove ourselves. People bank on some kind of drastic change after, or unbelievable mercy, and that we’ll make it anyway, but that’s not how God says it will work.
15. We have not redeemed Zion yet, something that will happen once we are righteous
16. We are promised that once we become righteous we will get additional scripture (the tribes of Israel on the isles of the sea, John’s record, more of 3 Nephi, etc.)
17. Prophets prophesied of the church being wicked (Isaiah, Moroni, Nephi), even that we have “polluted the holy church of God”.
18. We have been told by apostles and prophets that we don’t understand repentance, the Gift of the Holy Ghost or the requirements to obtain the gift, and that there are saints who believe the church is true, but who are not converted or transformed. And Jesus said we don’t understand Christ’s doctrine (D&C 10:62–63.)
19. There is a sifting of the wheat and the tares that is needed within the church. The destruction will start in the church. The cleansing of the daughters of Zion will be by burning. Parable of the 10 virgins, etc… (and this is to qualify for a terrestrial world)
20. Only those who kept a Telestial law will be removed at Christ’s coming. (All the proud and those who do wickedly)
21. People who live a terrestrial law during the millennium live in a state that may be seen by most Latter-day Saints as impossible in mortality. No wickedness, no pride or sin, Satan has no power over their hearts because of their righteousness, etc. It seems that very few even live by that kind of life, let alone a celestial one.
22. We are judged based on what we become in this life, not a sum total of our good and bad deeds. (President Oaks gave a fantastic talk on that in Oct 2000)
23. Based on the teachings of several apostles, exaltation requires more than just keeping covenants, it requires godly character including charity, and patience. 
24. We have been taught that every man who meets certain requirements will see God’s face and “know that I am”. We have been taught to seek to have our calling and election made sure while in this life. We have scriptural examples of people who have… but from what I see, it seems to be very rare.
25. People may point to the idea that we do baptisms, endowments, and sealings for the dead so that people can get another chance… but what we are really taught is that this who “died without a knowledge of this gospel” (not necessarily of the church) “who would have received it [with all their hearts] if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God” But look at how many have a knowledge and still don’t accept it in it’s fullness, or repent of all their sins, etc. we are taught in section 76 that those who reject it now and accept it later will receive a terrestrial, not celestial glory. 
26. There will be MANY which shall say …god will justify in committing a little sin… false vain and foolish doctrine. That idea seems to be prominent even among Latter-day Saints. The opposite would be to believe that we can get to the point where we don’t commit even a little sin anymore… which is hard for many to believe. Wide is the gate, and “Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and MANY there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.”
27. People may also be hesitant about the idea of few being saved because that doesn’t seem like a loving God… but it is a plan of happiness and salvation for all. God saves them into a kingdom of glory, and even the lowest surpasses all understanding.
28. People may also be hesitant because if apostles can’t make it, or if the requirements are really that high, then they suppose they have no chance. But everyone can change through the atonement of Christ, and we will all receive according to the desires of our hearts.
29. And something has to be said of the people who never become accountable, who were too pure in pre-mortal life to experience this life, but who are promised celestial glory. We know god cannot be arbitrary in his judgement, and we know that people must abide a celestial law to receive celestial glory, we know that at least Jesus and the Holy Ghost qualified for Godhood before obtaining a body, and we know that little children who die did something (were too pure) that we didn’t do in the pre-mortal world. I assume that they already qualified for celestial glory. With estimates of child and infant mortality rates throughout world history, that could be as many as 1/2 of all people born (possibly about 1/3 of God’s children.) That is a lot of people who did something to not have to come here and be tested, but rather only need to get a body, whereas I most likely did not already qualify, but had to come experience a Telestial world. And thus, we are surrounded with possibly the middle third of God’s children who already, this sounds harsh, but who already failed the exam once. Why would we suppose that if we fail to live higher law again, that God will still just be merciful with us and grant us exaltation while he sends a third of his children to outer darkness? He cannot be arbitrary in judgement.
30. And lastly, in all of my study, I don’t see anything that suggests that all apostles will be saved, or that a majority of the church, or even a large number of us here in mortality, will become exalted. I just shared lots of reasons for the contrary. The only thing I can see about many would be the many who die as children or never become accountable. 

[zil2]

Welcome to ThirdHour, @Brayden.