True Religion Test

[JohnsonJones]

My answer reflects much of what has been stated here, but is in a way, simpler and direct.  Read the Book of Mormon and ask.

Quote

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

and an LDS article that discusses it.

Moroni 10:3-5

 

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[clbent04]

On 8/8/2017 at 10:29 AM, Mike said:

The story sounds familiar to me, and it also sounds like a variation on many others. What do you sense is the take away of the story?

Take away being revelation is real.  How can two people from different cultures and different countries come to the same conclusions of how to live their lives and worship God

[Mike]

12 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Take away being revelation is real.  How can two people from different cultures and different countries come to the same conclusions of how to live their lives and worship God

I don't doubt that revelation is real. And I have no particular reason to doubt the story nor other similar stories taken on a case basis. But I don't doubt that two people from different cultures and counties can come to the same religious conclusions about how to live their lives and worship God either (even if revelation wasn't involved).

 

 

[clbent04]

@person0 I finally got around to reading this.  I think this is a great answer.  You hit some key points

On 8/8/2017 at 8:16 AM, person0 said:

only a true religion will teach you how to apply His guidance in a meaningful way.  

I get what you mean now. I agree

On 8/8/2017 at 8:16 AM, person0 said:

From the beginning of your post you have discussed the concept of using the Spirit as a measurement of truth.  If you believe that such a measurement may be possible, why are there not multiple faiths out there claiming that people should pray and receive from God that [X] religion is true?  

Very true

On 8/8/2017 at 8:16 AM, person0 said:

The fact that the LDS Church puts itself out there to such a high level of spiritual scrutiny is partially a testament in itself.

And now after reading your post I think, maybe it isn't a matter of me needing to apply the same level of scrutiny to other churches that the LDS church applies to itself. Instead, following along your thought process, shouldn't we be asking why other churches haven't done so on their own initiative? 

On 8/8/2017 at 8:16 AM, person0 said:

The short answer to your question is that, being guided by the Spirit is not the same as receiving a spiritual confirmation that the religion is true.  Members of other faiths may interpret that their spiritual experiences are evidence of the truthfulness of their faith, but I believe it is clear that those experiences are not defining the religion itself as true.  If one is not seeking to know the answer to this specific question as it pertains to their religion/church/denomination, they will not receive or recognize an answer to a question they are not asking.

Yes, agree, this makes sense. The summation of spiritual experiences one has is not the same as receiving a spiritual confirmation that the religion is true.  This is a key point I think I was missing before.  Thank you for recognizing it

Edited August 12, 2017 by clbent04

[clbent04]

On 8/9/2017 at 10:26 AM, Carborendum said:

I have spent at least three Sundays in about 100 wards across four countries, and a dozen or so states.

@Carborendum really? were you on a church assignment? can I ask what you were doing? sounds interesting

[Guest]

11 hours ago, clbent04 said:

@Carborendum really? were you on a church assignment? can I ask what you were doing? sounds interesting

I've not only moved a lot, but my work takes me place for a month at a time.

I've also been in some growing areas of the church where ward boundaries were redrawn.  That happened to me about ten times.

[clbent04]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I've not only moved a lot, but my work takes me place for a month at a time.

I've also been in some growing areas of the church where ward boundaries were redrawn.  That happened to me about ten times.

What is it you do?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

What is it you do?

Engineer.

[clbent04]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Engineer.

Nice. My brother is a chemical engineer. Pretty neat stuff everything he works on. You don't seem like a chemical engineer though. More like some kind of mechanical  or civil engineer I'm guessing

[Guest]

On 8/6/2017 at 0:58 PM, Grunt said:

Untrue.  You have a solution you can execute yourself.  Read.  Question.  Pray.  Live.  

When I read this, I read:  "You have a solution.  You can execute yourself."  I did a double take.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Guest

[Grunt]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

When I read this, I read:  "You have a solution.  You can execute yourself."  I did a double take.

I'm pretty harsh.  

[prisonchaplain]

I read the OP and not much else. I will tell you how I come to my faith, from the reasoning perspective.

1. Is there a god or gods? I believe there must be a God, in large part because of the design I see in the world. Further, there should be only one creator-God, because if there are many, quite frankly, I'd let them fight among themselves. None are all-powerful, so none can claim my worship.

2. If there is one God, I do not have to examine many religions. Only three offer worship to a single Creator God: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Only Christianity has a God who reaches beyond tribe and language, to appeal to the entire creation, offering his love.

3. So, WITHIN Christianity, it would be most appropriate to take the scripture of the faith and combine the knowledge of it with prayers for direction, in order to find the appropriate community of faith to worship in. For most Christians, the start will be in the church we began with. If a witness of the Spirit and confirmation of the Word are there, we'll usually be satisfied. Yet, we are always open to God revealing more to us.

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

3. So, WITHIN Christianity, it would be most appropriate to take the scripture of the faith and combine the knowledge of it with prayers for direction, in order to find the appropriate community of faith to worship in. For most Christians, the start will be in the church we began with. If a witness of the Spirit and confirmation of the Word are there, we'll usually be satisfied. Yet, we are always open to God revealing more to us.

In your experience, are other Christian faiths besides Mormonism as intent on praying to God to find out which religion is the one and only true religion of God?  Or do they accept their faith based on their own studies and reasoning, and what makes sense to them?

I have never received an answer that the Mormon church is the "one and only true Church of God."  I have, however, had amazing spiritual experiences specifically related to the power of Priesthood in the Mormon church.  Without doubt, I felt the Holy Spirit through priesthood blessings of comfort that were administered to me in a time of need.  

Since I haven't received a specific answer to whether the Mormon church is truly the restored church of Jesus Christ in its pure, unadulterated form, but yet I have experienced the Holy Spirit in other aspects within the church, I wonder if I can experience the Holy Spirit in other churches as strongly as I have in the Mormon church. 

What I really need is to study more for myself and ask God for the right answers.  It's frustrating when I don't feel like I'm spiritually in tune enough to have received an answer yet, even though I feel like I've put in a good amount of effort over the years.  Ultimately I end up attributing my unanswered prayers to my own weakness

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by clbent04

[prisonchaplain]

12 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

In your experience, are other Christian faiths besides Mormonism as intent on praying to God to find out which religion is the one and only true religion of God?  Or do they accept their faith based on their own studies and reasoning, and what makes sense to them?

 

I would argue that Pentecostal and Charismatics are the most likely to affirm "witnesses of the Spirit." We don't pray, "God is this true?" Rather, as we hear the gospel the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and we respond to the call of repentance and salvation. It is not unusual for "The Sinners' Prayer" to be given with tears, sobbing, sometimes even wailing. GOD! FORGIVE ME!  A SINNER!  In the old Methodist revivals, the front row, where the penitents came to accept Jesus were seated on what was called "the wailing bench." So, yes, the Holy Spirit very much convinced the soul that they needed God. Likewise, once the sins were repented on, there was often very demonstrative shouts of joy and relief.

For other Evangelicals, they too might speak of feeling the Spirit--but they will be quicker to emphasize that the Bible rang true, and they believed what they had heard. The salvation experience is still emotionally impacting, but probably less demonstrative.

Much of what you described tracked with what I have seen--more the Spirit impressing us, than some kind of yes/no affirmation to inquiries.

[Grunt]

51 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I would argue that Pentecostal and Charismatics are the most likely to affirm "witnesses of the Spirit." We don't pray, "God is this true?" Rather, as we hear the gospel the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and we respond to the call of repentance and salvation. It is not unusual for "The Sinners' Prayer" to be given with tears, sobbing, sometimes even wailing. GOD! FORGIVE ME!  A SINNER!  In the old Methodist revivals, the front row, where the penitents came to accept Jesus were seated on what was called "the wailing bench." So, yes, the Holy Spirit very much convinced the soul that they needed God. Likewise, once the sins were repented on, there was often very demonstrative shouts of joy and relief.

For other Evangelicals, they too might speak of feeling the Spirit--but they will be quicker to emphasize that the Bible rang true, and they believed what they had heard. The salvation experience is still emotionally impacting, but probably less demonstrative.

Much of what you described tracked with what I have seen--more the Spirit impressing us, than some kind of yes/no affirmation to inquiries.

I spent my years until I left for the military as a Southern Baptist.  Those revivals can get downright dangerous when you're trying to get to the altar.

[clbent04]

On 8/8/2017 at 8:16 AM, person0 said:

The short answer to your question is that, being guided by the Spirit is not the same as receiving a spiritual confirmation that the religion is true.  

I had a breakthrough earlier when you helped me come to the conclusion that the summation of one's spiritual experiences is not the same as receiving an answer from God on which church is true.  The breakthrough is still there for me, but I realize I have another issue related to this topic.

Now that I think about this more, I realize my conclusion above is THE VERY ISSUE I have with how missionaries are instructed to help convert others to the gospel (or at least how I understood it to be as a missionary).

The church itself suggests feeling the Holy Spirit is how we can know the church is true (no problem here).

The church says if you want to know what is truth, ask God, and, if you are sincere and humble, he will confirm to you the truth through the positive feelings of the Holy Spirit.

So if I pray saying, "God, is the Book of Mormon true?", and I have a warm, positive feeling, I automatically accept the church as the one and only true church of God?

What if after I read the inspirational words of Mother Theresa I pray, "Are the words of Mother Theresa true?", at which time I also receive a warm, positive feeling? 

Which belief system am I to accept and follow? Should I accept Catholisisim based on Mother Theresa's words? How am I to measure and compare my answers from the Holy Spirit?

Maybe I would need to rephrase my question to God. Maybe I should ask, "Is the Mormon church the one and only true church on Earth?"

Yes, I suppose this is the proper question to ask especially for someone like me. But how many people in the church accept the church is true just based on asking the question, "Is the Book of Mormon true?"

Do you see how an answer to that question alone presents a problem with people saying they know the church is true? Did they ask the right question to really know? Is that question really what they want to base their life beliefs on when it's really not specific enough of a question to know for sure?

As missionaries, we were taught to encourage people to specifically ask if the Book of Mormon is true.  That's my problem right there. The question is not specific enough. The Holy Spirit will testify of truth wherever it is found whether it be the Book of Mormon, the words of Mother Theresa or even a random inspirational pamphlet that teaches true principles. 

As missionaries, it makes sense to encourage investigators to pray about the Book of Mormon. It's a baby step. But in many cases the investigator is considered sufficiently converted after receiving an answer to the Book of Mormon. The answer is sort of a crowning moment where baptism is the next step after the lessons have been completed and the investigator is found worthy to proceed. 

Maybe after receiving a testimony of the Book of Mormon, we are all expected to later ask the question, "Is the LDS Church the one and only true church on the face of the earth?" Maybe it's implied we are supposed to build up to that question. 

However, I feel like many converts and life-long members to the church don't pray for specific answers to the truthfulness of the church beyond, "Is the Book of Mormon true?"

Does anyone else see how it can be incomplete and problematic to not pray for specific answers to the truthfulness of the church beyond, "Is the Book of Mormon true?"

Edited August 22, 2017 by clbent04

[person0]

7 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Does anyone else see how it can be incomplete and problematic to not pray for specific answers to the truthfulness of the church beyond, "Is the Book of Mormon true?"

At first glance, I would say you are correct in your main point.  I would also suggest that the brethren are very aware of the need to receive a witness that the Church is true.  When Moroni wrote his promise, he did not have the calling, nor the need to write for others to pray and find out that the Church was true.  His calling pertained to the Book of Mormon itself. However, the introduction was intentionally added to the Book of Mormon, and addresses the very question you have asked.

Quote

Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is His revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the Second Coming of the Messiah.

(Book of Mormon - Introduction) emphasis added

This inspired introduction does not use the equals method that many people talk about.  It does not say, Book of Mormon true = Jesus is the Savior = Joseph Smith is a prophet = the Church is true.  Instead it states that we 'will also come to know' that all those other things are true.  The Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion.  It is the fast track way to receiving an answer that will lead someone down the correct path to knowing that the Church is true. The Lord and the Church are aware that we need to receive a witness from the Holy Ghost about, at the very least, the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ as our Savior, Joseph Smith as a true prophet, and the Church itself as Christ's true church.  However, while it is possible to receive that witness in any order, for most people, to be open and receptive to the message, and capable of recognizing the answer, the most effective way is to first receive a witness of the Book of Mormon.

While it could potentially be problematic, it is not immediately necessary that an individual focus on receiving each of these witnesses at once, although it would be prudent to do so. In most cases, it is unlikely that it would be a problem, because most people will naturally follow in receiving sufficient witness of the other things for their personal needs. If this were not so, while the Church has already directed toward these needed witnesses, they would be placing more focus on it, and they are not.

In my personal situation, I actually knew that the Church was true by the power of the Holy Ghost before knowing that the Book of Mormon is true, and before truly knowing that Christ is my Savior.  I never understood this, until on my mission I received a blessing, where unprompted and uninformed about this concern of mine, my mission president informed me through the blessing that one of the gifts of the Spirit I have been given is to know that the Church is true.  All of a sudden this unusual circumstance made sense.  I always knew the Church was true, because that's what God wanted me to know as a gift of His Spirit, even if I didn't have other witnesses yet.  I have long since received a witness of the other things as well.

Each person's journey is specific to them, however, the instructions we have been given are there for a reason.  The witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon should not be the end, it should not be the only question, nor the final question, but it is intentionally the first question most people are taught to seek.  We should seek inspiration and personal revelation related to many things in our lives, even outside the Church and the gospel. For now, though, the witness of the Book of Mormon is the primary and general method that the Lord has, in His infinite wisdom with regard to what is best for God's children, guided us to use to lead others to the truth.

For your personal situation, while you have had these additional questions and concerns (which you must admit not everyone gets concerned about), I would suggest that the Lord has prepared a way for you to receive the answers applicable to your specific situation. That may be one of the benefits of your participation in this forum.

[clbent04]

12 hours ago, person0 said:

This inspired introduction does not use the equals method that many people talk about.  It does not say, Book of Mormon true = Jesus is the Savior = Joseph Smith is a prophet = the Church is true.  Instead it states that we 'will also come to know' that all those other things are true.  

Thanks @person0. I've finally put my finger on what my issue is.  The "if, then" logic isn't logical to me.  

I've based my testimony of the church largely on the "if, then" logic when I received a witness of the power of the Priesthood.  Knowing the Priesthood was true, I easily accepted that the Book of Mormon was true and Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

Funny enough, even though the "if, then" logic doesn't make sense to me, I've undeniably experienced the power of the Priesthood, and I still find myself largely believing and accepting everything in the church to be true.  

I just need to humble myself before the Lord and find real intent to receive the answers I need, to strengthen my testimony and overcome my doubts once and for all.

"For if the Book of Mormon is true, then Jesus is the Christ, Joseph Smith was His prophet, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, and it is being led today by a prophet receiving revelation." - President Ezra Taft Benson

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/the-book-of-mormon-is-the-word-of-god?lang=eng

"When we know the Book of Mormon is true, then it follows that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet and that he saw God the Eternal Father and His Son, Jesus Christ." - President Thomas S. Monson

https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/you-can-know?lang=eng

Edited August 23, 2017 by clbent04

[zil]

That these things logically follow (after all, how can the BofM be true and Joseph Smith not be a prophet? makes no sense) does NOT mean that the logic is the same as or a replacement for a testimony of each of the various points of doctrine.  The simple fact is, knowing spiritual things is not nearly as beneficial as having a testimony of spiritual things.

[Blueskye2]

On 8/5/2017 at 3:26 PM, clbent04 said:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declares that the way to find out which church is the true church of God is through the Holy Spirit.  The true church of God will have a greater presence of the Holy Spirit than any other religion.

One of the greatest claims that the Mormon Church advocates is that the Holy Spirit has the greatest prominence within the Mormon Church in comparison to other religions.  The Holy Spirit can still be felt and experienced in other religions, but to a lesser extent.  This is because the Mormon Church lays claim to representing Christ’s gospel in its pure form, not one that has been corrupted over the years.

In order to truly accept this claim as a member of the Church, consider the following:

How can we identify that the Holy Ghost has a unique and most prominent presence in the Mormon religion if we have never experienced anything else?  And even if you started now to try and compare religions side by side, how would you do so without bias?  Is it not likely that your views will be skewed in favor towards whatever you grew up with?

Thousands of religions exist in the world today and there is no way one person could dedicate the necessary time and effort in this life to each one in order to fairly cross examine all religions.  I think you would need to experience life under the roof of a Baptist family, a Buddhist, Jewish, and Muslim family and so on to be able to honestly assert the prominence of the Holy Spirit in one religion verses another.  Studying a religion’s beliefs on paper may not capture what its members find significant about it.  After all, the greatest reason mankind has been drawn to religion lies with the unseen.

Fairly cross examining all religions in relation to the prominence of the Holy Spirit is a daunting task which I don’t think is possible for anyone to accomplish.

I know a guy who sort of tried. His method was to attend a different church every week to see if he felt the Spirit. He reported back, that he did, in all of them.

I tried the deeper method you describe, above. Raised LDS, left for atheism, practiced (somewhat) and studied Hinduism, attended and participated in a Unitarian Universalist church. Now Catholic...and settled here. I felt what is often described as being home, where I belong. It was absolutely for me, a new spiritual awakening that I thought was not possible. I call my faith, a miracle. As a new convert, some 10 years ago, I was all gung-ho get the doctrinal points down to a T and argue about them with others (looking back it makes be lol). I view those things as important still, and I enjoy studying the depths of my faith, but I'm relaxed in my home. 

Did I question what I was doing? Absolutely. I had the dual thing going of asking myself if I had gone crazy, no something mystical has happened, no I'm crazy, no something mystical has happened. I was kind of neurotic about it, really, and finally just sat back, and listened. "Be still, and know I am God"...you'll just know, I think. It was for me like one day someone slipped a file into the filing cabinet and I didn't know how it got there, but isn't it amazing that it is there?

Edited August 24, 2017 by Blueskye2

[Vort]

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 7:09 PM, clbent04 said:

Thanks @person0. I've finally put my finger on what my issue is.  The "if, then" logic isn't logical to me.

The "if/then" logic is a starting point, not a destination. You don't reach the destination until long after you die.