The Case for Modesty in All Things

[jewels8]

So, I have always had a very strong testimony of modesty.  In thought, speech, dress and action.  I do not like off color jokes, etc.  I avoid any movies, tv programs, magazines that feature any degree of immodesty.   Once a church member gave us a video with nudity, but it wasn't one you would think would have it in it.  It was a kid  movie remake.  I'm glad I checked it before hand.  Even though it was not necessarily meant in a sexual way, it could have been seen that way and was totally inappropriate.  I threw it out and my family did not view it.  I wished I had not seen that, it took me by surprise and I threw it out and didn't see the rest.  I don't even like reading up on movies because the stuff you read is so bad, that I just don't generally have anything to do with the movies of today. There are some things I will never have to get out of my head, because they never went in there either by hearing or seeing, but other things that others impose, on you, whether realizing it or not, I  have to deal with.  And of course sometimes I make mistakes , and see something that I didn't think would be there.   I want the spirit with me all the time. And I want the same for my family and everyone.   I value and cherish ourselves as spirit children of our Father in Heaven and that our bodies are sacred, and are temples.  It bothers me when I see people, especially in the church, say things that I consider offensive and inappropriate in regard to the sanctity of the body.  Even if they may not be realizing that they are being irreverent or that the comment or what they wear or how they act is unnecesarry or inappropriate, it does detract from the spirit of the Lord.  Aren't we counseled to always have His spirit to be with us?  How then, can they justify such behavior and continue it?  I also am concerned about the debate that nudity is art.  It disgusts and bothers me that anyone would choose to use the human body uncovered or almost uncovered as art or as a statue.  I don't think Heavenly Father would think that is the best thing to do, and there are some scriptures that seem to show he wants people to be dressed.  I imagine that includes replicas of people.  If our bodies are sacred and holy, why in the world would anyone want to display them that way?  Even if it wasn't meant to be sexual?  I think people can be deceived into thinking it is ok, but I feel that the Spirit whispers something else about the importance of being covered.  It is unnecessary and inappropriate in any setting to display spirit children in this way.  Even for medical reasons, it shouldn't just be all out there for everyone to see.  I also think that people should be considerate of each gender and not display or talk about things that may make others feel uncomfortable and not help maintain the spirit of the Lord.  Our 13th Article of Faith says that if there is anything virtuous, lovely or of good report, we seek after these things.

[Jane_Doe]

There's a lot of focus in this post specifically on clothing (or rather lack there of).

Now, moving beyond that the subject of clothing, how else are you being modest?

[Fether]

You opened a can of worms with that “art nudity” comment haha. I️ agree with you though. I have never thought nudity to be appropriate even in “art”. Then in forums like these I hear arguements for it and they often times make sense. but as soon as I move on to my next daily activity, I forget what those arguements were cause it just seems so obviously and plainly wrong.

Im confusedbon your comment here

49 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

I also think that people should be considerate of each gender and not display or talk about things that may make others feel uncomfortable and not help maintain the spirit of the Lord

What do you mean by that? That one gender can maintain the spirit in a conversation when another can’t?

 

52 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

Even for medical reasons, it shouldn't just be all out there for everyone to see.

So should women not get mammograms? Pap smears? When they are giving birth should I be the one delivering the baby?

[jewels8]

What I mean is that, partly, I am a little old fashioned.  I hear people talk openly about male and female things in mixed company, hopefully not with kids present.  I think we live in a world were we need more sensitivity to things.  Some people are perfectly fine talking about things that are personal about one gender, like 'that time of the month" or "nursing a baby".  I'm not saying that's wrong, but sometimes people go into more detail then I feel comfortable with and more detail then I think is appropriate.  And it changes the spirit.  Recently, I went to my niece's baby shower.  She surprised me by mentioning to everyone about something that I wouldn't talk about.  One of my brother in laws (who once posted a nude picture when my family was there because he knew I wouldn't like it) made a comment about liking that (I'm not going to go into detail here) but it was just crude and made me feel uncomfortable.  I never feel totally comfortable around him.  Once he went down the hall where my daughter was, I followed him.  I am not saying he would do anything, but my husband and I (and he is is brother) don't feel comfortable with him being around her by himself.  We don't see his family very often.  

    Medically, I guess I remember hearing about a doctor that did "enhancing"   I really don't like the idea of there even being anything like that, all though I could see for women who have breast cancer, maybe needing that or for other reasons.  But he had pictures displayed throughout his office.  And I don't know if he did in the reception area, but I mean, I think that is going too far.  The husband was kind of embarrassed.  I know I wouldn't want me or my husband to have to see all that.  I guess I feel that a man really has no right to see another woman like that for pretty much most reasons and even if he has a wife, things need to be discreet and be done tastefully in an uplifting way.  I have heard of woman being treated inappropriately (touched or looked at ) in a  doctor's office, and if a doctor can't keep a clean mind, without pictures, imagine what pictures do.  I just think the approach I heard about that one doctor is disgraceful.  This was just  a story I heard about, that I would rather not be brought back into my mind.  My husband feels the same way I do.  Thank goodness for some decent men still in the world.  And woman.

[jewels8]

I think other ways of being modest are in speech and thought.  If we fill our minds with good books, the Ensign, the scriptures, and tasteful books, then it elevates our mood, our thoughts.  If we find ways of serving others and work on improving ourselves, it gives us a sense of accomplishment and well-being.  If we look for the good in others, we will find it.  If we pray for a purer heart, He will help us to feel more pure.  If we watch ourselves to control ourselves, not becoming angry and saying the wrong thing, not demeaning others and ourselves, being respectful of others, then I think we are becoming more modest.

[jewels8]

I think its ok for women to get medical treatment for those things, but if its a male doctor, have another woman there.  Men just aren't very pure in their minds as much as we would hope.  What do they do on their time off?  What movies do they see?  What do they do on their computer?  Sad to say, but even if I don't think a doctor would be like that, you never know.  There are now laws that a female nurse can be in their with the woman.  Which is a good idea.  I would want a doctor delivering my babies, as she or he has the expertise and I don't have to worry about it.  Also, if a woman prefers a female doctor, that is ok.  As long as the patient is treated with dignity and respect, that's the important thing.

[Fether]

30 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

I think its ok for women to get medical treatment for those things, but if its a male doctor, have another woman there.  Men just aren't very pure in their minds as much as we would hope.  What do they do on their time off?  What movies do they see?  What do they do on their computer?  Sad to say, but even if I don't think a doctor would be like that, you never know.  

Excuse me?? I’m not much for pushing “equality” or getting upset over stereotyping genders... But I will this once for the sake of having an intelligent arguements.

I won’t pretend that there are no male doctors that are perverts, but we can’t make blanket statements like this. If you do, then it should extend to gay doctors performing physicals on men, lesbian doctors doing medical examination on women, and anyone who is at all sexually promiscuous in any way at all.

And if they do have an innapropriate thought during a medical exam, so what? I’m sure there are plenty of people out there that are addicted to innapropriate things like this that are trying to get out of it.

And what does having a woman there do to fix the situation? Your arguements is a matter being appropriate and inappropriate with our bodies. Another woman being there won’t change thoughts.

And the situation with the enhancements is not medical as far as I’m concerned

1 hour ago, jewels8 said:

What I mean is that, partly, I am a little old fashioned.  I hear people talk openly about male and female things in mixed company, hopefully not with kids present.  I think we live in a world were we need more sensitivity to things.  Some people are perfectly fine talking about things that are personal about one gender, like 'that time of the month" or "nursing a baby".  I'm not saying that's wrong, but sometimes people go into more detail then I feel comfortable with and more detail then I think is appropriate

I disagree (and agree to some extent). I want to live in a world where I can say body parts, talk about “that time of the month”, and other functions openly without embarrassment (In appropriate situations). When children say thing comfortably in public (like calling body parts what they are) that make adults squirm, I tell myself “That kid is getting raised right”. I get really irritated when an adult uses 3 sentences to say one word because they are afraid to say it out loud. Now I don’t think we should glorify these things either like many feminist approaches. There is a balance, somewhere between glorifying and fearing and we need to find that as a society.

[anatess2]

Good thing you don't have dominion over me and mine.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[mordorbund]

2 hours ago, jewels8 said:

I think other ways of being modest are in speech and thought.  If we fill our minds with good books, the Ensign, the scriptures, and tasteful books, then it elevates our mood, our thoughts.  If we find ways of serving others and work on improving ourselves, it gives us a sense of accomplishment and well-being.  If we look for the good in others, we will find it.  If we pray for a purer heart, He will help us to feel more pure.  If we watch ourselves to control ourselves, not becoming angry and saying the wrong thing, not demeaning others and ourselves, being respectful of others, then I think we are becoming more modest.

Welcome back @jewels8. Sometimes when you reply to a post I have difficulty figuring out which post you are responding to. As a courtesy to me and others who try to follow along with your discussions, could you use the "quote" feature? You can find it under the last line of the post, something like this:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+ Quote

 

If you click the text "Quote", then your response will come pre-populated with the quote from the post your responding to (like the quote box above from your post). If you want to reply to 2 or more posts, you can click the "+" and then on the little popup button that appears.

Thanks.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I believe what Alma wrote on this subject: "Use boldness, but not overbearance; and also see that ye bridle all your passions, that ye may be filled with love; see that ye refrain from idleness."  -- Alma 38:12

When I was younger I used to believe sexual passions were a necessary evil.  I have learned that we need to bridle them and not seek to completely suppress and destroy them.  Just as a horse can run freely and at full speed sometimes it still needs to be under control.  A wild horse would be dangerous to handle or ride.  As we tame our passions we can use them for good.  Regular physical intimacy between a husband and wife is good if used in the proper manner.  I believe Heavenly Father created sexual relations for these reasons:

1. For Procreation
2. For Unity (to bring a couple close together, but this unity may not always come before sex, but may come later as a result of sex)
3. For physical pleasure
4. For relief of physical and emotional stress and to comfort one another
5. Sacrifice & Submission – husbands are called to sacrifice themselves by giving their bodies to their wives, and wives are commanded to submit their bodies to their husbands. (See I Corinthians 7:3-5.)
6. To bring us out of our comfort zone, to be able to love our spouse not as we would desire to be loved, but as they would desire to be loved

Edited November 11, 2017 by Still_Small_Voice

[jewels8]

12 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Welcome back @jewels8. Sometimes when you reply to a post I have difficulty figuring out which post you are responding to. As a courtesy to me and others who try to follow along with your discussions, could you use the "quote" feature? You can find it under the last line of the post, something like this:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+ Quote

 

If you click the text "Quote", then your response will come pre-populated with the quote from the post your responding to (like the quote box above from your post). If you want to reply to 2 or more posts, you can click the "+" and then on the little popup button that appears.

Thanks.

Thank you,  I will work on that

[jewels8]

12 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Good thing you don't have dominion over me and mine.

And that's all I have to say about that.

I understand there are different ideas around.  And of course, a post isn't going to let you know everything about how I feel and even if its taken in the same context.  A thought that comes to my mind is something I believe one of the General Authorities said.  I of course have a ways to go, as we all do, to become perfect.  There are so many things to do and learn, that it will take, I believe, more than a life time, and that's an understatement.  But what I wanted to mention was that a General Authority once said  (not a direct quote), that the more we get nearer to God, the more like God we will be.  Not exact words, but this is the idea I got from it. That we will be more like Him, think like Him, act like Him, feel toward others as He would.  I believe when people have that influence, they are more likely to be sensitive to the needs and feelings of others and maintain a degree of reverence about certain things.  I never said there was never a time things couldn't be talked about, but I do see how the world has shifted in this area, and unfortunately not for the better.  Is it leading us back to Christ?  How do those who should be an example to others act and behave.  Sometimes I wonder what some people are teaching, whether they realize it or not. I believe we hold a huge responsibility, as we have the truth given to us.  It is a sobering thought.  We are accountable for all we do.  I love good , clean fun.  I love a conscience free of regret.  And I love being in a place that I am comfortable with, as I'm sure everyone is.  The Savior will let us dwell where we are most comfortable, in the end.  I just appreciate sensitivity and respect to this.  

[jewels8]

2 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I believe what Alma wrote on this subject: "Use boldness, but not overbearance; and also see that ye bridle all your passions, that ye may be filled with love; see that ye refrain from idleness."  -- Alma 38:12

When I was younger I used to believe sexual passions were a necessary evil.  I have learned that we need to bridle them and not seek to completely suppress and destroy them.  Just as a horse can run freely and at full speed sometimes it still needs to be under control.  A wild horse would be dangerous to handle or ride.  As we tame our passions we can use them for good.  Regular physical intimacy between a husband and wife is good if used in the proper manner.  I believe Heavenly Father created sexual relations for these reasons:

1. For Procreation
2. For Unity (to bring a couple close together, but this unity may not always come before sex, but may come later as a result of sex)
3. For physical pleasure
4. For relief of physical and emotional stress and to comfort one another
5. Sacrifice & Submission – husbands are called to sacrifice themselves by giving their bodies to their wives, and wives are commanded to submit their bodies to their husbands. (See I Corinthians 7:3-5.)
6. To bring us out of our comfort zone, to be able to love our spouse not as we would desire to be loved, but as they would desire to be loved

Yes, I agree.   And I think when people keep a balanced perspective of this, it makes such a difference in their lives.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jewels8]

14 hours ago, Fether said:

Excuse me?? I’m not much for pushing “equality” or getting upset over stereotyping genders... But I will this once for the sake of having an intelligent arguements.

I won’t pretend that there are no male doctors that are perverts, but we can’t make blanket statements like this. If you do, then it should extend to gay doctors performing physicals on men, lesbian doctors doing medical examination on women, and anyone who is at all sexually promiscuous in any way at all.

And if they do have an innapropriate thought during a medical exam, so what? I’m sure there are plenty of people out there that are addicted to innapropriate things like this that are trying to get out of it.

And what does having a woman there do to fix the situation? Your arguements is a matter being appropriate and inappropriate with our bodies. Another woman being there won’t change thoughts.

And the situation with the enhancements is not medical as far as I’m concerned

I disagree (and agree to some extent). I want to live in a world where I can say body parts, talk about “that time of the month”, and other functions openly without embarrassment (In appropriate situations). When children say thing comfortably in public (like calling body parts what they are) that make adults squirm, I tell myself “That kid is getting raised right”. I get really irritated when an adult uses 3 sentences to say one word because they are afraid to say it out loud. Now I don’t think we should glorify these things either like many feminist approaches. There is a balance, somewhere between glorifying and fearing and we need to find that as a society.

If you noticed all of what I wrote, I did praise good men & women.  Of course not all doctors are going to have bad thoughts.  Of course doctors of both genders could have issues that may not be appropriate to display in a doctor/patient situation.  I believe many woman who have been sexually abused can benefit from another woman being there or a teenage girl could feel more comfortable.  I don't think it is right in God's eyes for a doctor to have sexual thoughts.  That isn't the time or the place.  If a man has a problem like that, I suggest he clean up his act before entrusting him to be alone with a female patient.  I'm not saying its all black and white, but I can say every patient deserves to not have things happen to them.  And these things happen more often then people realize.  Alot of times, it goes unreported.   If a doctor, or anyone else abuses another, be it any kind of abuse, from male or female to a  male or female,  it often goes unreported.  The perpetuator often does this to many more people, all who have to deal with the problems that the abuse has caused them.  The abuser, unless he or she repents, isn't better off in the long run for continuing this behavior, and neither are the victims.   I think another woman in a doctor's office helps the doctor, if he has a problem, realize he can't do anything inappropriate without a witness.  And it can give some peace of mind to the patient.  I agree that enhancement isn't medical, but like for  a cancer patient like I mentioned before, it could be, I guess that's not called the same thing though. 

[jewels8]

Also, there are other areas of modesty we could think about more.  Like in our speech.  Not speaking ill of others, either in front of them or behind there back.  Not gossiping.  And the definition of gossip can be interpreted in so many ways.  If it can hurt someone, if the info is inaccurate, I believe that can be categorized as gossip.  But even sharing personal things about someone could be considered gossip.  I also think it is good not to swear, not to take the Lord's name in vain.   And not to yell at others and demean them.  Unless its an emergency, or for certain reasons, yelling just doesn't seem to bring in a  spirit I want to feel.  Sometimes people are hard of hearing, and we need to speak up, but that is different.  It may be hard when people get upset, but the word modesty makes me think of being refined in how I behave.  I think it gives a person a reason to aim higher for something better in their character.  I think it fosters respect, love, hope, and faith in God.

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

  I don't think it is right in God's eyes for a doctor to have sexual thoughts.  That isn't the time or the place.  If a man has a problem like that, I suggest he clean up his act before entrusting him to be alone with a female patient.  I'm not saying its all black and white

You are right, it's not black and white and the situation is very complicated. Like it or not, some doctors (and lawyers, and teachers, and bus drivers and police officers and pilots....) are very good at their job and not the people you'd want as your neighbor, son in law, or friend. In fact, sometimes the biggest scumbag doctor (the one who has been married four times and is sleeping with three nurses) is an outstanding heart surgeon while the doctor who is an absolute saint in his personal life is totally incompetent. Life is very strange sometimes. 

[jewels8]

I meant when I put, "it may be hard when people get upset,"  to add, to not yell or be demeaning, but we should still be respectful.

[jewels8]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

You are right, it's not black and white and the situation is very complicated. Like it or not, some doctors (and lawyers, and teachers, and bus drivers and police officers and pilots....) are very good at their job and not the people you'd want as your neighbor, son in law, or friend. In fact, sometimes the biggest scumbag doctor (the one who has been married four times and is sleeping with three nurses) is an outstanding heart surgeon while the doctor who is an absolute saint in his personal life is totally incompetent. Life is very strange sometimes. 

Yes,  unfortunately, that is true.

[jewels8]

16 hours ago, Fether said:

You opened a can of worms with that “art nudity” comment haha. I️ agree with you though. I have never thought nudity to be appropriate even in “art”. Then in forums like these I hear arguements for it and they often times make sense. but as soon as I move on to my next daily activity, I forget what those arguements were cause it just seems so obviously and plainly wrong.

Im confusedbon your comment here

What do you mean by that? That one gender can maintain the spirit in a conversation when another can’t?

 

So should women not get mammograms? Pap smears? When they are giving birth should I be the one delivering the baby?

I believe both genders can maintain the spirit in a conversation and that women can get all those medical things done you mentioned above, with a doctors help.  There are many good doctors, male and female, that can be trusted.  I think its good to "shop around" for a doctor that a person would be comfortable with and has Christ'like values, such as honesty and is competent and respectful.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

Yes,  unfortunately, that is true.

My biological mother was a nurse (she is retired) and her and I would have long talks about that. In her opinion (yes, I know it's only one person and she doesn't have widespread knowledge of every single doctor out there) the best doctors are usually the most arrogant ones. Oh sure, she's talked about a few doctors that are both highly skilled and wonderful people-but they are sort of rare. 

[jewels8]

1 minute ago, jewels8 said:

I believe both genders can maintain the spirit in a conversation and that women can get all those medical things done you mentioned above, with a doctors help.  There are many good doctors, male and female, that can be trusted.  I think its good to "shop around" for a doctor that a person would be comfortable with and has Christ'like values, such as honesty and is competent and respectful.

I appreciate you sharing your feelings about "art".  Its refreshing. 

[jewels8]

Just now, MormonGator said:

My biological mother was a nurse (she is retired) and her and I would have long talks about that. In her opinion (yes, I know it's only one person and she doesn't have widespread knowledge of every single doctor out there) the best doctors are usually the most arrogant ones. Oh sure, she's talked about a few doctors that are both highly skilled and wonderful people-but they are sort of rare. 

That is too bad.  Its good to have skilled doctors, especially when they can be wonderful too.  I knew a doctor that had too many patients, he was working very late every day because he was so good and popular, it seemed everyone in the area wanted to go to him.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

That is too bad.  Its good to have skilled doctors, especially when they can be wonderful too.  I knew a doctor that had too many patients, he was working very late every day because he was so good and popular, it seemed everyone in the area wanted to go to him.

I knew a doctor like that too but it turns out she was a Dr Feelgood prescribing all sorts of pain pills to people who didn't need them. State eventually shut her down. 

[jewels8]

16 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

There's a lot of focus in this post specifically on clothing (or rather lack there of).

Now, moving beyond that the subject of clothing, how else are you being modest?

Below, I have posted about other things.  You are right, there was a lot of focus on that and not other aspects of modesty.  Having free speech is one other aspect.  It is a wonderful gift, and I believe when used wisely, it can draw us closer to Christ and His Gospel.  It can help elevate and uplift others, including ourselves.  I don't believe it should be used flippantly, that it shouldn't be used to have someone be a brunt of a joke or jokes.  Not that we can't laugh about ourselves and others together, but there is a  line, and that may be different for different people.  I feel bad if I slip in what I say or do.  Sometimes it happens, either intentionally or unintentionally.  But I know the Lord can forgive us and we can forgive ourselves and others that may have been hurt.  Its good not to take offense, except, I think as Church members, its good to find some things offensive.  Even the Lord finds some things offensive.  But anyways, having free speech, I don't think means that "anything goes"  as we may sometimes see in politics and the world around us.  I appreciate language that doesn't detract from the spirit.  Having no profanity, no taking the Lord's name in vain, for example.   

 

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I knew a doctor like that too but it turns out she was a Dr Feelgood prescribing all sorts of pain pills to people who didn't need them. State eventually shut her down. 

Yeah, that is too bad.  Pain pills are a big issue nowadays.   Its a fine line between helping and hurting a patient.  I have a friend who can't always take pain pills, due to a prior addiction she used to have.

[jewels8]

Just now, jewels8 said:

Below, I have posted about other things.  You are right, there was a lot of focus on that and not other aspects of modesty.  Having free speech is one other aspect.  It is a wonderful gift, and I believe when used wisely, it can draw us closer to Christ and His Gospel.  It can help elevate and uplift others, including ourselves.  I don't believe it should be used flippantly, that it shouldn't be used to have someone be a brunt of a joke or jokes.  Not that we can't laugh about ourselves and others together, but there is a  line, and that may be different for different people.  I feel bad if I slip in what I say or do.  Sometimes it happens, either intentionally or unintentionally.  But I know the Lord can forgive us and we can forgive ourselves and others that may have been hurt.  Its good not to take offense, except, I think as Church members, its good to find some things offensive.  Even the Lord finds some things offensive.  But anyways, having free speech, I don't think means that "anything goes"  as we may sometimes see in politics and the world around us.  I appreciate language that doesn't detract from the spirit.  Having no profanity, no taking the Lord's name in vain, for example.   

 

Yeah, that is too bad.  Pain pills are a big issue nowadays.   Its a fine line between helping and hurting a patient.  I have a friend who can't always take pain pills, due to a prior addiction she used to have.

She often has severe back pain.  Sometimes she gets her nerves "burned", I guess, but it only helps temporarily.