Let's talk Moore

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

@Just_A_Guy predicted the decay of the Right with the election of Trump..  It is sad to see him proven correct

I'm not sure about that. Politics is cyclical. One party rises, one fails. In 2008 I know of people who said we'd never see a republican majority again in the country. Oops. 

[estradling75]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm not sure about that. Politics is cyclical. One party rises, one fails. In 2008 I know of people who said we'd never see a republican majority again in the country. Oops. 

Indeed it is..  But if you have any interest in a "party"  then noticing its decay is the first step in reversing it...  Sadly it seems very likely that the right will drive itself to the bottom before it starts to right itself

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed it is..  But if you have any interest in a "party"  then noticing its decay is the first step in reversing it...  Sadly it seems very likely that the right will drive itself to the bottom before it starts to right itself

Agree. They (and I'm basically one of them) sold their soul to win. Mission accomplished, but at what price? 

[Just_A_Guy]

In partial defense of the Repubs, the Dems did a major head fake by initially doubling down on their support for Conyers and Franken.  The Repubs felt caught between a child killer on one side and a child molester on the other; and when it looks like your opponent is ok with sexual predators generally . . . wheels in the brain are wont to start turning and compromises get made.

[Grunt]

3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

When power is held by the slimmest of margins short-term thinking reigns triumphant. Conservatives know that they may lose control of one or both houses in the 2018 elections. They want to place conservative judges and pass as much legislation as possible in the short time that may be remaining. So...they hold their noses and let Moore in. Democrats, being out of power by the slimmest of margins, are hoping that this play for the moral high ground will be enough to push them back into power next year. Their track record is no better than the GOP overall, but for right now, the look is that the Democrats are the more righteous players.

Personally, I wish we could do a political "CONTROL...ALT...DELETE" and bring in a brand new bunch of citizen legislatures. Short of that, I look at the GOP with new-found wariness, but trust the Democrats no more than before. 

Exactly.  Many people are willing to compromise their principles for what they perceive to be the "bigger win".

[mordorbund]

8 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Senator Al Franken to resign amid sexual misconduct claims

I am reluctantly forced to admit that he makes a point in the video which resonates with me a bit.  

There is an image forming in my mind.  I don't believe this image reflects reality, and yet it is forming in my mind.  It is an image of the left being the new guardians of female purity and virtue, and the right being a bunch of lecherous wagon-circling power-keepers.

I am not happy with this image, or with the current state of affairs which moves our culture a smidgen closer to it.

To take a page from @prisonchaplain's playbook:

Even as we lament the hypersexuality that ushered it in, Christians can find commonality with the public backlash against unwanted advances while marking a path through the murky questions on the horizon. In a society that supports hookup culture (casual sex after the initial meetup), flirting goes beyond the formerly bold act of stealing a kiss. It's catcalling intensified. The reason why catcalling continues is because it requires very little effort on the caller, and some cats actually come! Similarly the propositioner doesn't know if the object will respond favorably or not but the price to venture is low, the price of failure has been low, and the payoff has been high. The price of failure is finally ratcheting up but (and here's where we diverge) the payoff is still on the table. That is, the message I'm currently seeing is "don't grope me except when I want you to grope me". The problem with this message is, once you know sex is on the table, "no" is just part of a negotiation. In the past, propositioners could safely ignore the message, but now with a higher price of failure the gamble won't be worth it.

This is good for those with more traditional values, and those subcultures (such as Christian communities) where sex and the various "arousal" flirts beyond kissing are taboo can continue to model the safety society may enjoy by embracing such virtues. Unfortunately, I don't foresee our society embracing chastity. The message will still be "don't grope me except when I want you to grope me", but the propositioners will be far fewer. Even the more innocuous forms of flirting will be on the decline (one of the allegations against Franken is that he put his arm around someone's waist and squeezed twice), leaving the second half of the message unsatisfied.

What then is to be done in this soon-to-come post-feminism culture where a woman is liberated to be sexually active on her own terms, whenever she wants it, except men seem to be more and more afraid to act for fear of the backlash if they misstep? What's needed is a well-understood relationship framework. Only, we can't rely on societal norms to define it, because we're seeing people accused of things that they got away with less than a decade ago. Societal norms are far too fickle to alleviate such fears. It will have to be socially acceptable and legally binding. This framework provides protections for the man to sexually pursue and woo the woman (and vice versa of course) without backlash, and the liberated woman will access to all the sex she consensually wants (and the man too).

Sure, it may just be "a piece of paper" but it's no flimsy thing, for it's laden with legal protections and cultural expectations. We used to call it a marriage. 

[Guest MormonGator]

It all ends today. I hope he gets crushed, and I think Doug Jones will win. The democrats will celebrate, but it's a fluke. Like how Scott Brown won in 2010 or how Bob Turner won in 2011. 

[Just_A_Guy]

19 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It all ends today. I hope he gets crushed, and I think Doug Jones will win. The democrats will celebrate, but it's a fluke. Like how Scott Brown won in 2010 or how Bob Turner won in 2011. 

Hmm.  I think Moore still wins.  We’ll see—polling seems to have been all over the map.

[NeuroTypical]

Ok, right wing.  Here's your talking points.

If he wins: "People are so fed up with the dems, Alabama actually chose a creepy peter pan kiddie hugging weirdo over one."
If he loses: "Tell us again how we circle the wagons and abandon morals to keep power?  While you're at it, let's google up some news stories from when Clinton was impeached, and see if we can find you."

Yuck.  Thinking like that makes me want to take a shower. I hate politics.

Some context: 
- Senators from Alabama started being republicans in the '80's, after over 100 years of them all being democrats. 
- We're having this election in an off year because Trump picked Alabama senator Jeff Sessions to be US attorney general. Meaning, the right thought that would be fine and and Alabama would be able to replace him with a republican.
- This is all making national news because the left is fighting hard to stop the right momentum.  What with the current trend amounting to less and less blue state legislators, governorships, congressfolks, etc.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

36 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Hmm.  I think Moore still wins.  We’ll see—polling seems to have been all over the map.

The GOP better do a lot of hoping and praying that he loses, because in 2018 I'd run as a democrat and use him in EVERY SINGLE AD. 

[estradling75]

Just now, MormonGator said:

The GOP better do a lot of hoping and praying that he loses, because in 2018 I'd run as a democrat and use him in EVERY SINGLE AD. 

I am not sure that would help much anyways...

Congress is a cesspit of sexual offenses based on what I am hearing (and have been hearing for awhile) if either party was truly serious they start with the low hanging fruit in their own back yard.  The only time either party seems to care is when they can make a political point of it.  Its been this way along time.  I think this difference now is that the voters are tired of the flat out crying wolf and manipulation and are rebelling.  I think that is how we ended up with Trump..  And I suspect it will help Moore as well.

If Moore wins it will strengthen this theory and would mean that an democrat trying to "cash in" will lose these "rebelling" voters

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

  The only time either party seems to care is when they can make a political point of it. 

Welcome to politics kid. When my side has perverts and sex offenders, than it's due to false accusations and accusers just trying to get 15 minutes of fame. When the other side has perverts and sex offenders it's because they are inherently immoral and evil and the people who accuse them are noble heroes speaking truth to power. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by MormonGator

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Welcome to politics kid. When my side has perverts and sex offenders, than it's due to false accusations and accusers just trying to get 15 minutes of fame. When the other side has perverts and sex offenders it's because they are inherently immoral and evil and the people who accuse them are noble heroes speaking truth to power. 

Which is why I do not think your idea will work for the dems...  Although I fully expect them to do exactly that if he does win

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, estradling75 said:

Which is why I do not think your idea will work for the dems...  Although I fully expect them to do exactly that if he does win

It'll work for them in the next election cycle, then when their side comes into power it'll work against them. Politics is cyclical.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Ok, right wing.  Here's your talking points.

If he wins: "People are so fed up with the dems, Alabama actually chose a creepy peter pan kiddie hugging weirdo over one."
If he loses: "Tell us again how we circle the wagons and abandon morals to keep power?  While you're at it, let's google up some news stories from when Clinton was impeached, and see if we can find you."

Yuck.  Thinking like that makes me want to take a shower. I hate politics.

Some context: 
- Senators from Alabama started being republicans in the '80's, after over 100 years of them all being democrats. 
- We're having this election in an off year because Trump picked Alabama senator Jeff Sessions to be US attorney general. Meaning, the right thought that would be fine and and Alabama would be able to replace him with a republican.
- This is all making national news because the left is fighting hard to stop the right momentum.  What with the current trend amounting to less and less blue state legislators, governorships, congressfolks, etc.

 

THIS HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT MOORE!

C'mon NT!  You've been very good with keeping up with the program...

THIS IS ALL ABOUT IMPEACHING TRUMP.

See the pattern here:

• Sexual harassment/Access Hollywood video brought up in election - fizzled.  Trump got elected.
• Dems did a confab and decided they need to float the Russian Collusion narrative to get rid of Trump.  This is now falling apart with the bombshells of the Dossier and the Mueller investigation team conflicts of interests.
• Dems have no reason to believe they can take Alabama.  BUT, Moore is a solid Trumpster even when Trump did not endorse him in the primaries.  So, back to the tried-and-true page of the Democratic playbook - Pull out Gloria Allred from their box of tricks.
• This caused a blowback with all these sexual harrassing Democrats coming out of the woodwork (hello, Democrats have been the party of hedonists, what did you expect).
• Dems went to clean house - throwing even the Clintons under the bus, throwing Conyers and Franken under the bus... clearing the deck so they can take the moral high ground (laughable).
• Then the Trump sexual harassment accusers of last year gets pulled out of the box again and paraded on TV.
• And... cue in the 59 Democratic Congresswomen calling for Trump to resign and have a special investigator called in...

How do Republicans react?  COWARDLY, AS USUAL.  No surprise there.

If you think Romney, Flake, and McMullen fought tooth and nail to NeverTrump because of morality, you have your head under the sand.  The Russian collusion investigation is doing one thing - Exposing the corruption in the intelligence agencies from which McMullen hailed from.  Bush, McCain, Romney, Flake - my opinion is they all share ties to the military industrial complex.

So, people think Republicans are rotting - THEY HAVE BEEN ROTTEN!  The Russian collusion investigation is draining the swamp.  The sexual harassment allegations are draining the swamp.  The swamp holds no Party affiliation.

Meanwhile, constitutional judges are getting appointed - even as the Senate is dragging their heels to slow it down, regulations are getting slashed, the Executive Branch is getting pared down, foreign policy is, so far, working successfully, illegal immigration is drastically cut, job numbers are steadily improving, hispanic jobless rate is the lowest in history, black home ownership is the highest in history, GDP is hitting 3+% even with hurricanes... All happening in a Republican-run Congress and White House.  But yeah, they THINK Republicans are rotting.

No people...  THEY ARE WINNING!  Despite Republicans trying to eat their own and GIVING CAMPAIGN DONATIONS TO THE DEMOCRAT!

But yeah.  This is the Trump kind of push back to these Women-Using party of Feminists.  In case you don't remember - Kirsten Gillibrand is the woman who took Hillary's Senate seat when she vacated it to be Sec of State and during the last few days before the election the Dems floated an accusation that the wife of her Republican opponent called the cops because her husband (Gillibrand's opposition, can't remember his name...) is beating her up!  Republicans stayed home and Gillibrand won.  Guess what - THAT WAS PROVEN TO BE FAKE NEWS!  That's Kiersten Gillibrand.

 

 

 

[anatess2]

@NeuroTypical, by the way... guess what that 12 Diet Coke a day story on CNN was about while some suicide bomber was trying to blow himself up in NYC?  Preparation for Plan C.  If the sexual allegations fail... the next impeachment move is Trump Has Dementia and needs another special investigator to assess the effects of his mental health on his executive actions.  I'll pull this post up when that happens as I'm fairly certain Trump is not going away with sexual allegations.

[NeuroTypical]

Well, the party out of power's job is to get back into power.  Via whatever strategy folks think would be the most effective.  So ok, I don't really take issue with anything you've said, you're just describing the strategy.  

[Guest]

Well, one thing that I figure is that if the tables turn like NT is picturing, then Mormon candidates will be a hot commodity come election time.

[Guest Godless]

To be honest, Roy Moore was the wrong candidate before the pedophilia allegations came out. We're talking about a guy who is on record saying that homosexual conduct should be criminalized, that America's decline started with the civil rights movement in the 60's, and that we'd be better off without the 17 Constitutional Amendments that came after the original 10, which include amendments giving voting rights to black people and women. He was removed from the Alabama Supreme Court in 2003 and suspended from it last year after a brief return. The idea that Moore is also (allegedly) a morally depraved pervert is just icing on the cake for a man who is essentially the embodiment of every negative stereotype that exists about Alabama citizens.  

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Godless said:

To be honest, Roy Moore was the wrong candidate before the pedophilia allegations came out. We're talking about a guy who is on record saying that homosexual conduct should be criminalized, that America's decline started with the civil rights movement in the 60's, and that we'd be better off without the 17 Constitutional Amendments that came after the original 10, which include amendments giving voting rights to black people and women. He was removed from the Alabama Supreme Court in 2003 and suspended from it last year after a brief return. The idea that Moore is also (allegedly) a morally depraved pervert is just icing on the cake for a man who is essentially the embodiment of every negative stereotype that exists about Alabama citizens.  

The GOP is so warped right now that anyone who was in office, no matter how conservative they are (and Luther Strange was hardly a left wing communist) is automatically deficient in some way. It is absolutely sickening. 

[Guest Godless]

27 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, one thing that I figure is that if the tables turn like NT is picturing, then Mormon candidates will be a hot commodity come election time.

The SL Tribune (yes, I'm aware of it's reputation on this site) and Deseret News have both published op-eds calling for Orrin Hatch to retire so Romney can run to replace him. And I doubt we've heard the last of Evan McMullen.

[Guest]

Just now, Godless said:

The SL Tribune (yes, I'm aware of it's reputation on this site) and Deseret News have both published op-eds calling for Orrin Hatch to retire so Romney can run to replace him. And I doubt we've heard the last of Evan McMullen.

I'd much rather McMullen run for senate in Hatch's place.

Romney would make a great secretary of Treasury.  I would think he'd make a great President as well - for management skills and the respect he might bring back to the office.  But my libertarian side dislikes the idea based on politics.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Godless said:

The SL Tribune (yes, I'm aware of it's reputation on this site) and Deseret News have both published op-eds calling for Orrin Hatch to retire so Romney can run to replace him. And I doubt we've heard the last of Evan McMullen.

Some of Hatch’s high mucky-muck staffers held a cottage meeting in my in-laws’ home back around 2010-2011 when the Tea Party had throttled Bennet’s re-election and Hatch realized he had some fence-mending to do.  It was interesting chatting them up before the meeting—they knew I was a law grad and figured I was “like them”; so they said more than I think they meant to about Bachman, Lee, and some of the other Tea Party leaders.  Their contempt for the movement was palpable.  Before that meeting I thought Hatch needed to go; but after that meeting—I was sure of it.

I like Romney—a lot—but that goshawful dinner photo-op Trump suckered him into showed a mix of naivety, ambition, and political expediency that leads me to believe he’s the wrong man for the current situation.  Plus, his dithering over support for McMullin and ultimately leaving McMullin to twist in the wind, belied his stated intention to stop Trump at all costs and undercuts his claims to any sort of meaningful moral courage.  I think McMullin is fundamentally a good guy; but sadly his opposition to Trump on virtually every issue (especially his buying into the whole Russia thing) at this point seems more knee-jerk than principled at this point.  McMullin may yet have a role to play nationally; but he’s got a few years of wandering in the wilderness ahead of him first.  Romney is older than he looks and doesn’t really have time to go on a wilderness journey—I think he’s done, or should be.

We need someone who can ally with Trump when he’s right—but not be bought off by Trump when he’s wrong.  My short list for Hatch’s seat would be:

—Mia Love

—Sean Reyes

—Diedre Henderson

Edited December 12, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest Godless]

Doug Jones wins by 1.5% margin. 1.7% of the vote went to write-in candidates. Popular theory is that most of those votes went to Nick Saban, though that is unconfirmed.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Godless

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Godless said:

Doug Jones wins by 1.5% margin. 1.7% of the vote went to write-in candidates. Popular theory is that most of those votes went to Nick Saban, though that is unconfirmed.

I really didn’t expect this.  I won’t say I’m “pleasantly” surprised; because the grim work of restoring the GOP’s moral credibility while trying to articulate conservatism and growing the base (not to mention governing effectively) still lies before us.  But . . . it’s a necessary first step; and lays a foundation the party can build on if it so chooses.

Moore’s fans are forecasting that every Republican candidate next year is going to have trumped-up sexual harassment accusations thrown at them.  That may be so; but if the GOP nominates folks who haven’t spent decades cultivating the image of a millionaire playboy or folks who didn’t verifiably date/marry women decades younger than themselves, then such accusations won’t have much sticking power.