Rape by deception? Lies, immorality and why sin has created this problem

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Grunt said:

I wasn't asking in judgment, merely wondering how you get a temple recommend without lying.  I don't think they ask when you last spoke to your brother or if you've recently flipped someone off in traffic, but they do ask about the Word of Wisdom, don't they?

My comment was a general one, not responding to you personally. 

Question 6 is -Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? I'm not a bishop, but if I hold such animosity to my brother/sister/mother that I haven't spoken to them in a decade I'm very sure that it's not in harmony with Christ. 

The yelling/screaming flipping people off in traffic might not keep you out of a temple but it could be indicative of deeper anger issues that are not Christ like either.  

[Anddenex]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's fun to point out Word of Wisdom sins and it makes us feel better about ourselves and more righteous than those wretched sinners, but I'm also sure there are people who go to the temple on Monday morning and while driving home yell, scream and give the finger to those who are driving in a way we don't like. And there are those who go to the temple Tuesday morning who haven't spoken to their brother in ten years, their sister in five years and hate everyone who they work with. And I'm sure there there are others who go to the temple Wednesday morning and lie about about tithing, lie on their income tax returns and worship money. Speaking of worship, I'm sure there are people who go the temple Thursday morning who don't really "have a testimony" about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ but go to church more for the social aspect. Notice a pattern?  

No one, not even temple recommend holding LDS are perfect. The Word of Wisdom is important, but so are other virtues as well. 

I'm going to the kitchen to get another beer. Be back later. 

If this is in response to my post, then I am sorry you misunderstood what I was specifying. I don't feel any better by pointing out Word of Wisdom issues, and it isn't fun to point out either. I was actually trying to point out that what you two were saying does indeed happen.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Anddenex said:

If this is in response to my post, then I am sorry you misunderstood what I was specifying. I don't feel any better by pointing out Word of Wisdom issues, and it isn't fun to point out either. I was actually trying to point out that what you two were saying does indeed happen.

Not towards you, a general comment. Said tongue in cheek. 

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

My comment was a general one, not responding to you personally. 

Question 6 is -Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? I'm not a bishop, but if I hold such animosity to my brother/sister/mother that I haven't spoken to them in a decade I'm very sure that it's not in harmony with Christ. 

The yelling/screaming flipping people off in traffic might not keep you out of a temple but it could be indicative of deeper anger issues that are not Christ like either.  

Sure.  I'd be willing to bet most members of the church at times exhibit behavior that isn't Christ-like.  They are human, after all. I heard a great talk about it today in Principles. I wish I could remember who it was by.  Luckily, there is repentance. 

[Guest MormonGator]

21 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm going to the kitchen to get another beer. Be back later. 

@Anddenex and @Grunt-I noticed that you guys said nothing about this part of my post. Geez! 

[Anddenex]

Just now, MormonGator said:

@Anddenex and @Grunt-I noticed that you guys said nothing about this part of my post. Geez! 

I was trying to think of something humorous but couldn't think of anything, so I remained quiet.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Anddenex said:

I was trying to think of something humorous but couldn't think of anything, so I remained quiet.

You have failed me yet again @Anddenex. :: sigh :: 

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Anddenex and @Grunt-I noticed that you guys said nothing about this part of my post. Geez! 

Sorry, It was hard to read it through the pot smoke.

[Vort]

40 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's fun to point out Word of Wisdom sins and it makes us feel better about ourselves and more righteous than those wretched sinners, but I'm also sure there are people who go to the temple on Monday morning and while driving home yell, scream and give the finger to those who are driving in a way we don't like. And there are those who go to the temple Tuesday morning who haven't spoken to their brother in ten years, their sister in five years and hate everyone who they work with. And I'm sure there there are others who go to the temple Wednesday morning and lie about about tithing, lie on their income tax returns and worship money. Speaking of worship, I'm sure there are people who go the temple Thursday morning who don't really "have a testimony" about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ but go to church more for the social aspect. Notice a pattern?

At the risk of pedantry by responding seriously to a tongue-in-cheek post:

I bet every one of us here realize that viciousness toward others or blatant hypocrisy is worse than drinking a beer. But there are many problems with this comparison that render it pretty much meaningless.

For one thing, someone who holds a temple recommend and drinks beer is a hypocrite, in the most literal sense. Someone who teaches others that such hypocrisy is acceptable and tolerated is worse than a mere hypocrite.

In addition, some sinful activity is external and visible, while other sins are almost purely internal. Which do you suppose is easier to deal with? In general, the external and visible things -- smoking, drinking alcohol, swearing, fornicating -- are easier to deal with because they are more obvious and measurable. Feeling angry at others is not as easily measurable. Being angry at your brother may be worse, per se, than e.g. drinking a beer. But drinking a beer is an external, easily measurable, and (by comparison) much more easily controllable evil. As Section 89 says, avoiding alcoholic drinks is a principle adapted for the capacity of even the weakest of those who can be called Saints. Controlling our internal emotional state is not so easy; it will take most of us more than a lifetime to figure it out.

As a consequence of the above two things, some actions which would otherwise seem relatively minor can become very serious. I have never considered Word of Wisdom issues as particularly grave. Serious, certainly, but not like adultery. But when beer or coffee or (especially) narcotics use by members becomes a stumbling block for those outside the Church, that is a much more grievous matter.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Vort said:

At the risk of pedantry

Pedantry, thy name is @Vort! 

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I wasn't asking in judgment, merely wondering how you get a temple recommend without lying.  I don't think they ask when you last spoke to your brother or if you've recently flipped someone off in traffic, but they do ask about the Word of Wisdom, don't they?

No, you're not supposed to habitually socially drink and receive a temple recommend.

The thing is that much of the other stuff that is mentioned on this thread is covered by the final question: Is there any other aspect of your life that is not in harmony with the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" Or something like that.

For many years I'd tell my bishop about many things that were what I felt made me not qualify (including a rift between me and my parents).  But each bishop, when they heard the details, said that it didn't bother them and that I'd be ok attending the temple.  After a several bishops all told me the same thing about all these topics, I figured I'd stop talking about any of these issues.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

 I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm not saying it's any insult to the church or it's members. I'm guessing that the overwhelming majority of members DO live in accordance with their temple recommendations.  

I never said that the members who have temple recommendations but smoke weed/drink alcohol are doing the right thing. I just said that I'm 100% confident that there are members out there with active temple recommends who do that. 

I understand.  Yes, I'm sure there are some who do what you described.  It still makes me sad and just have to shake my head. I just don't get what their motivation would be.  Why would they spend so much time and effort faking it?  It just doesn't make sense.

Compare this to the failing student who goes through Herculean Tasks to avoid actually studying and cheat on an exam to pass a class.  At least they admit there is something to be gained by cheating and passing the class.  It is just too difficult to understand certain concepts.

The problem with the people "cheating" with a religion is that there is no lying to God.  He knows all.  There's no way to cheat on this test.  What are they hoping to accomplish?

Keep trying to work through weaknesses? Ok. That is what true repentance is about.

Fake it till you make it?  Ok.  That at least says that 1) You believe it and 2) You're trying to do better.

Say you believe it, but also say that "no one ever does it" ???  I. just. don't. get. it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

I'm going to the kitchen to get another beer. Be back later. 

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

@Anddenex and @Grunt-I noticed that you guys said nothing about this part of my post. Geez! 

59 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I was trying to think of something humorous but couldn't think of anything, so I remained quiet.

Uninvited, I'll take a crack at it:

A-hem...

SINNER!!!  

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I understand.  Yes, I'm sure there are some who do what you described.  It still makes me sad and just have to shake my head. I just don't get what their motivation would be.  Why would they spend so much time and effort faking it?  It just doesn't make sense.

Compare this to the failing student who goes through Herculean Tasks to avoid actually studying and cheat on an exam to pass a class.  At least they admit there is something to be gained by cheating and passing the class.  It is just too difficult to understand certain concepts.

The problem with the people "cheating" with a religion is that there is no lying to God.  He knows all.  There's no way to cheat on this test.  What are they hoping to accomplish?

Keep trying to work through weaknesses? Ok. That is what true repentance is about.

Fake it till you make it?  Ok.  That at least says that 1) You believe it and 2) You're trying to do better.

Say you believe it, but also say that "no one ever does it" ???  I. just. don't. get. it.

I totally understand where you are coming from my friend. It does seem weird/hypocritical.

it's important to remember that humans are just that. Humans. We don't always practice what we preach or preach what we practice.  

[NightSG]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You don't need to be telling us your life story.

Nah; mine stuck with most of the standards until after we broke up.

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Adding to that, I'm sure there are people with temple recommends who smoke a little weed/have a drink from time to time too. 

I know there are; in addition to the crazy one I'm sure I've mentioned elsewhere, I've seen the TR of the hostess who was spiking people's drinks at the Conference party.

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

@Anddenex and @Grunt-I noticed that you guys said nothing about this part of my post. Geez! 

Totally typical and expected behaviour. Such as common occurrence as to not be worth commenting on.

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

 Luckily, there is repentance. 

I'd be in serious trouble if there wasn't!

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, askandanswer said:

Totally typical and expected behaviour. Such as common occurrence as to not be worth commenting on.

Ouch! Dude, you are not invited to my next keg party! 

[askandanswer]

Totally typical and expected behaviour. Such a common occurrence as to not be worth commenting on. I'm talking here about both the keg party and the lack of an invite. 

[askandanswer]

42 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Pedantry, thy name is @Vort!

@Vort, someone has stolen your name. Or perhaps you have a new name?

Edited December 11, 2017 by askandanswer

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Pedantry, thy name is @Vort! 

Did you mean Perdition?

[Vort]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Did you mean Perdition?

The mama dog in 101 Dalmations was named Perdita, Italian for "lost". I'm more of a Pongo.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Vort

[mirkwood]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

It's fun to point out Word of Wisdom sins and it makes us feel better about ourselves and more righteous than those wretched sinners, but I'm also sure there are people who go to the temple on Monday morning and while driving home yell, scream and give the finger to those who are driving in a way we don't like.

I pull them over and write them a ticket.

[mirkwood]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

No, you're not supposed to habitually socially drink and receive a temple recommend.

 

Fixed that.

[NightSG]

43 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Fixed that.

Well, if you're not doing habitually, then when do you stop drinking?

If you go out right now for a couple beers and a cigar, when, for TR interview purposes, are you no longer smoking and drinking?