Celestial Kingdom:Are these statements true?

[Sunday21]

Dear Bros&Sis’s

Are the statements in this article true?

http://www.ldsliving.com/5-Fascinating-Things-We-Know-About-the-Celestial-Kingdom/s/87342

[zil]

IMO, read the referenced scriptures and ponder their meaning for yourself.  Sometimes, in our rush to summarize or "translate into modern English" we make unwarranted assumptions / additions, accidental changes, or ignorant simplifications or complications.  The best thing is to read the source material.

The five items don't seem unreasonable, but I think the summarizing might tend to make us think we know more than we do, or might make one assume understanding where it's absent - for example, we don't know what the "stewardship" described in #1 will be like.  I'm not sure #2 is clearly explained in scripture.  #3 seems like a no-duh (which probably means I'm glossing over something).  #4 is too simplistic a statement (seems thrown in to catch attention rather than explain truth).  #5 may or may not be misleading, depending on how you choose to understand it.

But if nothing else, the article serves as a good listing of scriptures to read on the topic, so study those instead (or in addition).

[Sunday21]

@zil You are the best!

[Rob Osborn]

I think generally they are true. I hesitate slightly on the stewardship one as it seems a little fishy.

[Vort]

I largely echo @zil's viewpoints. I certainly bear the author no ill will, but the article strikes me as pretty fluffy. Specifically, and at the risk of overwhelming pedantry:

1. "Those in the celestial kingdom will have stewardship over the lesser kingdoms." Sure, whatever that entails. True but not really very useful. It's like saying "We'll all be pretty."
2. "Everyone in the celestial kingdom will have a Urim and Thummin." Yes, but so what? It's kind of like saying, "Everyone who goes to State University receives an Ipad" to someone who has never seen so much as a digital watch.
3. "There is no night in the celestial kingdom." Metaphorically, this is trivially true, perhaps true by definition. In anything beyond a metaphorical sense, this statement presupposes a whole structure in celestial glory that is not well-supported. Do celestial beings live on a planet that orbits a star? Must "night" be defined by darkness? What is the place of sleep among exalted beings, or is that a purely mortal state? You might as well as whether exalted beings perceive the color blue as being red.
4. "There is no temple in the celestial kingdom." I don't know whether to classify this as True, False, or Duh. It's like saying, "There is no oasis in a tropical paradise." Since the very existence of an "oasis" presupposes a barren wasteland, it must technically be a correct statement. But its implicit meaning is opposite the truth of the matter. (To the author's credit, she acknowledges at least part of this in the final paragraph of her writeup on this point.)
5. "The earth will become the celestial kingdom after the Millennium." True. Maybe this has deep meaning for some. For me, the deepest chord it plucks is when thought of in conjunction with the Savior's promise, "The meek shall inherit the earth."
6. Bonuses: Yeah, whatever. No offense intended to the author, but these superhero-ish "enhanced abilities" sound like an anti-Mormon's parody of "Planet Kolob". All true, I'm sure, but outside of a specific and sacred context, not really meaningful beyond a comic-book approach.

[Traveler]

 

I find the article simple but rather profound – especially in light of what most religious circles expect of heaven.  To many LDS it may seem shallow and not much to consider but I find it most interesting.  For example: in #1 the idea of stewardship concerning lessor kingdoms.  I believe “stewardship” is spiritual code for tender, loving service and sacrifice.  There are worldly thoughts of heaven that I believe are totally wrong.  First is that those in heaven will be lazy and served – the idea that guys will spend their days sitting around being fed peeled grapes by beautiful maidens or something similar for ladies is just not true.  I am of the mind that if there are toilets to be cleaned in the hear after that Celestial beings will be willfully and lovingly performing the service (which will mostly not be appreciated by those less than Celestial). 

For those that would rather be served (not have stewardship) than serve – I am very sure they will be much more happy somewhere else.

 

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

I think others have highlighted the five main points, the bonus though appears to be false:

Quote

As Latter-day Saints, we know that before entering the celestial kingdom with our resurrected bodies, we must reside in the spirit world. While these two realms are separate from one another, there is much we can learn about how life will be in the celestial kingdom from what we know about the spirit world.

I do not believe our doctrine separates the two realms within the spirit world. When we draw the two items (paradise and prison) we often separate them to make a point that there is a distinction between the two; although, I believe the distinction is more the guilt one feels and who is being taught the gospel by the missionaries and who the missionaries are corresponding with (sitting in council).

The notion "we must reside in the spirit world" is only true before the millennium.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Anddenex

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I think others have highlighted the five main points, the bonus though appears to be false:

I do not believe our doctrine separates the two realms within the spirit world. When we draw the two items (paradise and prison) we often separate them to make a point that there is a distinction between the two; although, I believe the distinction is more the guilt one feels and who is being taught the gospel by the missionaries and who the missionaries are corresponding with (sitting in council).

The notion "we must reside in the spirit world" is only true before the millennium.

Hell (spirit prison) and paradise are two physically separate places.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;
            21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.
            22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;
            30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;
            37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

(D&C 138)

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hell (spirit prison) and paradise are two physically separate places.

What does it mean for spirits to be in "physically separate places"?

[Anddenex]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hell (spirit prison) and paradise are two physically separate places.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;
            21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.
            22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;
            30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;
            37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

(D&C 138)

Hell (outer darkness) and paradise are two different places, true.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Anddenex

[Rob Osborn]

23 minutes ago, Vort said:

What does it mean for spirits to be in "physically separate places"?

Well, just like me and you are in separate phhsical places.

[Rob Osborn]

25 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Hell (outer darkness) and paradise are two different places, true.

Let me rephrase it- spirit prison and paradise are two different places.

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, just like me and you are in separate phhsical places.

The fact of postmortal missionary work demonstrates that the spirits of the just are, or at least can be, in proximity with the spirits of the wicked. The location of spirit paradise might well be different from that of spirit prison only in the sense that Utah is in a different location from the rest of the world.

[Anddenex]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Let me rephrase it- spirit prison and paradise are two different places.

If this is how you interpret it, then this is how you interpret it. We would disagree.

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

If this is how you interpret it, then this is how you interpret it. We would disagree.

Thats fine. I have had dreams about it and it is a separate place and it is physically dark there also. Spirit messengers carry actual light with them into the depths of hell to teach the gospel.

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

The fact of postmortal missionary work demonstrates that the spirits of the just are, or at least can be, in proximity with the spirits of the wicked. The location of spirit paradise might well be different from that of spirit prison only in the sense that Utah is in a different location from the rest of the world.

Thats correct. Proximity is the key. They are close to each other but there is a physical placement that separates them from the regions we call "paradise". The biggest distinction is that it is dark in spirit prison and light in paradise.

[Anddenex]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

Thats fine. I have had dreams about it and it is a separate place and it is physically dark there also. Spirit messengers carry actual light with them into the depths of hell to teach the gospel.

Thank you. I also have had dreams, what I find peculiar about dreams is how often God is symbolic within them, and the symbolism is more important than the overt implication.

[Traveler]

 

With very rare exception I have met few that believe that human spirits exist, think that the spirits of the dead leave planet earth – I know of no religion that teaches contrary to this idea.   It may be quite possible to past from mortality to the spirit world and not realize that death has taken place.

We think that there is a gulf that separates the wicked spirits from the righteous – the reality is that there exists a gulf between the righteous and wicked spirits in mortality as well (this symbolism exists even in scripture).  It is not all that rare for me to discuss religious things with people that are so on a tangent and beyond some intellectual gulf – I am convinced that not only are they living on a different planet but a different universe as well.

  

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Thats fine. I have had dreams about it and it is a separate place and it is physically dark there also. Spirit messengers carry actual light with them into the depths of hell to teach the gospel.

Dreams are, by their very nature, highly symbolic. This may create interpretive difficulties and presumption errors for the symbolically challenged.

[Note: I should have read @Anddenex message  before posting my own so as to avoid duplication.]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 16, 2018 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you. I also have had dreams, what I find peculiar about dreams is how often God is symbolic within them, and the symbolism is more important than the overt implication.

Yeah, sometimes its hard to separate symbolism. I am pretty sure though its physically dark. In fact, I will bet all my chips that it is physically dark there.

[Rob Osborn]

There is a reason they call it "outer darkness", it really is dark there.

[Anddenex]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

There is a reason they call it "outer darkness", it really is dark there.

Spirit prison and outer darkness are two different places, the conversation began with spirit prison ("spirit prison and paradise are two different places.") not outer darkness (which has no "glory" in it).

 

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Spirit prison and outer darkness are two different places, the conversation began with spirit prison ("spirit prison and paradise are two different places.") not outer darkness (which has no "glory" in it).

 

Well, they are both called outer darkness.

[Anddenex]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, they are both called outer darkness.

That is new news. I have never heard/read any prophet, or apostle, or any leader of the Church reference spirit prison as "outer darkness." This appears to be a personal interpretation.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Anddenex

[Rob Osborn]

39 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

That is new news. I have never heard/read any prophet, or apostle, or any leader of the Church reference spirit prison as "outer darkness." This appears to be a personal interpretation.

Its found in scripture.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
            14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection. (Alma 40:13-14)

Now, I will agree that generally "outer darkness" is spoken of as the eternal hell after resurrection. The distinction that doesnt change is the "darkness". That applies for both hells.