Did Elephants Exist In The Americas During The Book Of Mormon Times?

[Holly3278]

Ether 9:19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

Why is there this reference to elephants in the Book of Mormon? They didn't exist in the Americas during the Book of Mormon times did they?

[pam]

Here is a link to an interesting article that I found on the subject.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1623495/posts

And I found another

http://www.2s2.com/chapmanresearch/elephant.html

[checkerboy]

I have a photograph of a sign at the Ft. Worth zoo that talks about the American Elephant that lived until about 600 AD I believe. Now I know that isn't a great source but I am sure that they wouldn't have posted it if it wasn't somewhat accurate. The American Elephant was significantly smaller then the African or Asian elephant, though I am sure that its capacity as a work animal was still great.

[Elphaba]

I have a photograph of a sign at the Ft. Worth zoo that talks about the American Elephant that lived until about 600 AD I believe. Now I know that isn't a great source but I am sure that they wouldn't have posted it if it wasn't somewhat accurate. The American Elephant was significantly smaller then the African or Asian elephant, though I am sure that its capacity as a work animal was still great.

A picture of an American Elephant that lived until 600 AD would be a great source! Can you post the pic?

Elphaba

[checkerboy]

It is a picture of a SIGN that talks about the American Elephant that I took on my mission. Let me dig around for it.

Well I can't for some reason upload the picture but I will post it on my profile page, if anyone is interested. I'm not gonna keep it there forever though cause I have a gorgeous pic of myself that I have to take down for this to go up and because we all know how vain I am...

[checkerboy]

Well after multiple attempts I cannot post this pic but here is what it says on the sign.

The earliest Elephant ancestors, known from Africa about 60 million years ago, were little pig-like swamp dwelling animals with bulging noses. Over the years elephants spread throughout most of the world.

By 35 million years ago elephants were found in North America. Elephants like the American mastodon and the North American imperial mammoth survived until about 8000 years ago, with one form remaining in Equador until about 600 AD.

[Brother Dorsey]

Ether 9:19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

Why is there this reference to elephants in the Book of Mormon? They didn't exist in the Americas during the Book of Mormon times did they?

I'm sorry....I just have to interject something here and ask you a question. Wouldn't it be easier to post all these old anti-Mormon arguments at once rather than posting them one by one as you have been doing?

And to answer your question(s) of late just visit any one of these:

Jeff Lindsay answers anti's questions

or

One Minute Answers to anti-Mormon questions

or

The Anti Anti Mormon page

or

Responses to Anti-Mormon Critics

[Elphaba]

Well after multiple attempts I cannot post this pic but here is what it says on the sign.

The earliest Elephant ancestors, known from Africa about 60 million years ago, were little pig-like swamp dwelling animals with bulging noses. Over the years elephants spread throughout most of the world.

By 35 million years ago elephants were found in North America. Elephants like the American mastodon and the North American imperial mammoth survived until about 8000 years ago, with one form remaining in Equador until about 600 AD.

Hi Checker,

Jeff Lindsay's site says the elephant would have existed around 2500 BC, during the Jaredite period.

I wonder what mammoth survived in Equador until 600 AD? I think I'm going to go hunting!

Elphaba

[a-train]

The American Elephant is a pain to the ######.

-a-train

[the_jason]

I'm sorry....I just have to interject something here and ask you a question. Wouldn't it be easier to post all these old anti-Mormon arguments at once rather than posting them one by one as you have been doing?

I feel I need to mention something. I've had several recent conversations with Paladingirl. We talked on messenger because she said she had some questions about the church, and I love talking about the church. It didn't take me long to realize that a lot of her questions were silly, such as this one, and that she was basing her testimony on whether or not they are true.

Not only that, but she can't make up her mind which church is true, and frankly, wouldn't know truth if it came up to her and said "Hi, I'm Truth." She was baptized into the church this past July and has been doubtful of the church ever since. One day she tells me she's Catholic, the next day she said she prayed and had a burning in her bosom that the LDS church is true, and the next day she said she's thinking about becoming Baptist.

I don't mention these things as an attack on her, but so that everyone is informed if they wish to continue talking with her or responding to her posts.

Thanks.

[Palerider]

Ether 9:19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

Why is there this reference to elephants in the Book of Mormon? They didn't exist in the Americas during the Book of Mormon times did they?

.....do you really know someone that asks this many questions???? wow....some of the same web sites that were mentioned in earlier posts ...could also be used to find these answers.... :)

[Outshined]

The only place that elephants are mentioned in the Book of Mormon is in Ether 9:19 in approximately 2500 B.C. Thus any elephants existing upon the American continents need not have survived past about 2400 B.C...Besides the traditions, five elephant effigies have been found in ancient Mexico. Dr. Verrill, a well-known (non-Mormon) archaeologist describes one of these figures as “‘so strikingly and obviously elephantine that it cannot be explained away by any of the ordinary theories of being a conventionalized or exaggerated tapir, ant-eater or macaw. Not only does this figure show a trunk, but in addition it has the big leaf-like ears and the forward-bending knees peculiar to the elephants. Moreover, it shows a load or burden strapped upon its back. It is inconceivable that any man could have imagined a creature with the flapping ears and peculiar hind knees of an elephant, or that any human being could have conventionalized a tapir to this extent’”...

The oral traditions, written records, and artwork depicting elephants lends strong support for the claim that the elephant existed in ancient America. Even more substantial support-- actual remains-- have also been discovered. Today all scholars agree that mastodons and mammoths (which are unquestionably elephants to zoologists) once lived in the Americas. The dispute today is how late they lived. According to the Book of Mormon they need not have lived later than 2400 B.C. Within recent years archaeological evidence has demonstrated that the elephant could very well have survived to such a late date. Butchered mastodon bones were recently discovered at one archaeological site which dates to shortly after the time of Christ. Another site, dating to approximately 100 B.C. has yielded the remains of a mammoth, a mastodon, as well as a horse.

Some scholars have suggested that the elephant (mammoth or mastodon) lived later than hitherto believed. Ludwell Johnson, in an article entitled “Men and Elephants in America” published in Scientific Monthly, wrote that

“Discoveries of associations of human and proboscidean remains [Elephantine mammals, including, elephants, mammoths, and mastodons] are by no means uncommon. As of 1950, MacCowan listed no less than twenty-seven” including, as noted by Hugo Gross, a “partly burned mastodon skeleton and numerous potsherds at Alangasi, Ecuador...There can no longer be any doubt that man and elephant coexisted in America.... Probably it is safe to say that American Proboscidea have been extinct for a minimum of 3000 years."

If the elephants had died off at least 3000 years ago, they would still have been well within range of the Jaredite era. And as noted above, some evidence indicates that the elephant may have survived in limited numbers for centuries later.

In short, the elephant presents no problem for the Book of Mormon.

http://www.fairwiki.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Animals

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Anachronisms1.pdf

[Palerider]

thanks Outshined.....I could not think of those web sites to save my life...... :)

[Gabelma]

here is another thought maybe it doesn't matter if the Book of Mormon or any other scipture is 100% historically accurate, Heavenly Father wants us to know the truths in it - the historical accuracy is almost unimportant.

-Charley

[Moksha]

According to the Wikipedia, "Modern paleontologists contend that mastodons and mammoths became extinct thousands of years before the time when the Book of Mormon is set."

Elephants

Elephants are mentioned twice in a single verse in the Book of Ether.[117] The time period corresponding to this verse would be approximately 2500 B.C. Elephants, in particular, are mentioned as being "useful unto man." Elephants are never mentioned as having been present during the period of time during which the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations are said to have existed.

Scholars agree that mastadons and mammoths once lived in the New World. The main point of contention is how late these animals were present before becoming extinct.[118] Current archaeological data suggests that elephants were hunted to extinction by early inhabitants of the New World sometime around 8,000 BC.[citation needed]

There are instances of stories preserved orally by Native Americans which some LDS scholars believe may describe elephants. One such story is related by the Naskapi Indian Tribe, located in Canada. The story concerns a monster from the Naskapi tradition called Katcheetohuskw, which is described as being very large, with large ears, teeth and a long nose.[119] Similar versions of "monster" legends related by other tribes refer to a monster called Ursida, which is described as more of a large, stiff-legged bear rather than a mammoth. The story of the "monster bear" is considered by some scholars to be purely mythical. [120]

[tiancum]

A little off topic, but about the curaloms and cumoms...

I was wondering why Joseph didn't use the English translation for those two.

Many think they were Mammoth.

I doubt it or he would have called 'em mammoth. They had been discovered...of course, i am assuming that joseph had heard about mammoth.

My guess is that it is an obscure animal that either died out, and did not have a modern name, or still exists and joseph didn't know about it.

maybe llamas...but they are for sure not more useful than a horse. IMO

[Old Tex]

One day she tells me she's Catholic, the next day she said she prayed and had a burning in her bosom that the LDS church is true, and the next day she said she's thinking about becoming Baptist.

I don't mention these things as an attack on her, but so that everyone is informed if they wish to continue talking with her or responding to her posts.

I think she has decided that the LDS Church is "too legalistic", and not liberal enough and she is now going to the United Methodist church. I think that the young lady has some real problems that she is having to deal with in more than just the area of religion. I hope she has someone that's helping her.

[CrimsonKairos]

A little off topic, but about the curaloms and cumoms...

They were spices commonly used in Jaredite and later Nephite cooking to season elephant meat.

They were too delicious for mortals to handle, however, and were so rare that they caused the Jaredite wars of destruction as both sides struggled to dominate the natural habitat of the ecstasy-inducing spices.

So God refrained from revealing their English names so that none of us would annihilate whole civilizations in a massive war of attrition in the pursuit of said scrumptuous spices.

(Hey, I'm a screenwriter...finding drama in details is what I do)

[Heather]

Question answered, topic closed.