Repentance after death

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

When I am unyielding one ought to know it because I would not include phrases such as...

"I'm of the opinion"
"I don't think"
"maybe"
"I would contend"
"I consider"
"we may be saying the same thing."
"We don't really know"
"maybe I entirely misunderstood ... It's been known to happen."
"Maybe."

...every one of these being used by me in the last five or six pages of this thread.

Maybe. :☺️

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

In the endowment, in each kingdom, we make covenants that are preparatory to receiving higher covenants and law. What would be the purpose to make covenants preparatory to receiving higher law if it were not actually possible?

Actually, several times I have posted a graphic mapping out the process of the fall and ascension from kingdom to kingdom. I can post it again if you like. This is all according to the plan of the Father. So, not only is it possible for all of his children who kept their first estate, to make escalating covenants from kingdom to kingdom, but it is the wiil of the Father.

However, the ascension from kingdom to kingdom, as with the fall,  occurs during this life as typified through the endowment, and to some extent before birth and after death, but ends with the resurrection. The making  of escalating covenants is a pre-resurrection and final judgement occurrence, not post-resurrection.

This should be clear to you given that during the endowment we don't ascend through the kingdoms as resurrected beings, but as mortals.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Your idea seems reasonable but is incorrect. In the end, all but the sons of perdition will have to believe and accept the gospel in order to to obtain a salvation in any of the kingdoms of glory. This is why D&C 76 testifies that even the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will be required to sincerely bow the knee to God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is the Christ.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepare. (D&C 76)

 

As intimated before, this can be taken in at least two ways.

First, the notion of every knee bowing and tongue confessing may be viewed as indicative of repentance and full acceptance of the gospel including vicarious baptism by the inhabitants of all the kingdoms, in which case I would be incorrect.

Second, the notion of bowing knees and confessing tongues may be viewed as simply that, an acknowledgement of Christ and his station and works, and not a a full acceptance of his gospel (not unlike when I acknowledged that Obama was my President, and granted him his due accomplishments, though I rejected his political philosophy). In which case I would be correct.

Quote

D&C Sections 19 and 76 also make it clear that the reason why all but the sons of perdition will eventually accept the gospel before the final judgement is because they will be very powerfully motivated to do so. You see, being thrust into hell to suffer for your own sins, with most exquisite agony and without relief until decision is made to repent , will eventually impel all to accept Christ and his the gospel, the only exception being the eternally hardened sons of perdition who steadfastly refuse to accept Christ and his salvation.

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

The process of being thrust into hell where one suffers for his own sins, until he repents and accepts the salvation of Christ, is called “the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God,” and it is through exposure to this process of divine punishment that all but the sons of perdition will eventually be subdued by Christ, for he is the one who trods the winepress (the wicked in hell are analogous to the grapes that are trod upon by the Savior).

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.(D&C 76)

Even the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will be rendered “spotless” through their sincere repentance after the dreadful experience of being thrust into God’s winepress of divine justice.

Again, the word  "spotless" in verse 107 could be taken in two ways.

First, as you suggest, it could be in reference to all the kingdoms, in which case I may or may not be incorrect depending upon one's interpretation of the word "spotless."

Second, it may be read as referring to Christ, particularly given the follow-up qualifier that he troddened the winepress of the wrath of the Almighty God alone. In which case I would remain correct.

You can probably guess which of the options I favor, as I can probably guess which you favor. To each their own. We will just have to wait and see who, if either of us, is correct.

Either way, I take @The Folk Prophet's point about focusing on the known principle of the gospel that now is the day of repentance, and give little or no further attention to currently unverifiable speculating about full and near universal acceptance of the gospel in the hereafter and the possible implications thereof. My intent in entertaining the issue is to offer a way of reconciling the two sections that fits my and others perceptions of current teaching of the Church.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 3, 2018 by wenglund

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im wondering why its hard for LDS to believe that the gospel is being preached to the wicked and rebellious now in spirit prison who did reject the gospel in mortality? Is it that we dont think they are capable of repentance or that their eternal fate is already sealed?

I don't see any of the LDS on this thread who find that hard to believe. Certainly I don't. The question isn't whether the gospel is preached to them and they having the opportunity to accept it. Rather, the question is whether they will accept it or not. But, more important, whether or not we are given cause to procrastinate the day of our repentance.  We accept the words of the prophets, both ancient and modern, that we ought not procrastinate.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Exactly what I expected.

 

The Traveler

You didnt do a very good job of what you were asking. Clarify it a bit more if you expect an answer so that I dont think you were asking something you werent and its just a waste of my time.

[wenglund]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Wickedness never was happiness. Why do we get stuck in the belief that somehow we think choosing wickedness is fun?

I don't know about "fun," but are you doubting that people have strong motivations to be wicked--in many cases more compelling motivation in their minds than to be righteous?

One would have to be extremely naive and sheltered not to see ample evidence of this throughout the world.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Actually, several times I have posted a graphic mapping out the process of the fall and ascension from kingdom to kingdom. I can post it again if you like. This is all according to the plan of the Father. So, not only is it possible for all of his children who kept their first estate, to make escalating covenants from kingdom to kingdom, but it is the wiil of the Father.

However, the ascension from kingdom to kingdom, as with the fall,  occurs during this life as typified through the endowment, and to some extent before birth and after death, but ends with the resurrection. The making  of escalating covenants is a pre-resurrection and final judgement occurrence, not post-resurrection.

This should be clear to you given that during the endowment we don't ascend through the kingdoms as resurrected beings, but as mortals.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Ascension from kingdom to kingdom happens, or starts, with the kingdom we are now in- the Telestial. Then we progress to the terrestrial and finally into the Celestial. We know this doesnt all happen in mortality because we know that the Celestial kingdom  does not come until after the millennium. Its thus clearly obvious the progression from kingdom to kingdom continues after this life and into the next until the end of the millennium.

[Traveler]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You didnt do a very good job of what you were asking. Clarify it a bit more if you expect an answer so that I dont think you were asking something you werent and its just a waste of my time.

My impression is that you do not know what an heir is and to what an heir (especially joint heirs) is/are entitled - your response is as I thought - dodge the question - pretend you don't understand it.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

15 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I don't see any of the LDS on this thread who find that hard to believe. Certainly I don't. The question isn't whether the gospel is preached to them and they having the opportunity to accept it. Rather, the question is whether they will accept it or not. But, more important, whether or not we are given cause to procrastinate the day of our repentance.  We accept the words of the prophets, both ancient and modern, that we ought not procrastinate.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If they dont accept it then they cant be forgiven and cant be saved and will be cast into outer darkness. Its true we shouldnt procrastinate the day of our repentance but its also true that no one is perfect in mortality and thus repentance must be made possible in the hereafter. So, the bigger question back at you is if its impossible to repent of all our sins and become perfect in mortality why should we believe its possible in the next? Thats your opinion. You see, I believe that is what the millennium is for- to correct ourbehaviors and desires and work out our salvation and perfection in order to be saved.

[Traveler]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Ascension from kingdom to kingdom happens, or starts, with the kingdom we are now in- the Telestial. Then we progress to the terrestrial and finally into the Celestial. We know this doesnt all happen in mortality because we know that the Celestial kingdom  does not come until after the millennium. Its thus clearly obvious the progression from kingdom to kingdom continues after this life and into the next until the end of the millennium.

Wondering if you know the difference between a kingdom and other forms of government?  And what a citizen of a kingdom (or any official government) entails.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

15 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I don't know about "fun," but are you doubting that people have strong motivations to be wicked--in many cases more compelling motivation in their minds than to be righteous?

One would have to be extremely naive and sheltered not to see ample evidence of this throughout the world.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The deception and temptations of Satan are real and we are but just little children for the most part that havent had the right experience and knowledge to get over it yet. But it will happen.

[askandanswer]

23 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The natural man is an enemy to God and forever will be. God willnot save his enemies from Satan. All must repent and have a "mighty change" or they cannot be saved from Satan in hell eternally.

I'm well aware of the scriptural origins of this state. It occurs to me, just now, that if this statement is true, and presumably it is, then it would seem to follow that God, being the creator of the natural man, created His own enemy. 

[wenglund]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Ascension from kingdom to kingdom happens, or starts, with the kingdom we are now in- the Telestial. Then we progress to the terrestrial and finally into the Celestial. We know this doesnt all happen in mortality because we know that the Celestial kingdom  does not come until after the millennium. Its thus clearly obvious the progression from kingdom to kingdom continues after this life and into the next until the end of the millennium.

That isn't how I see it. I believe we may attain the celestial kingdom on earth (not to be confused with the celestial kingdom of the resurrection), or in other words we may now abide celestial laws and covenants while in mortality, and this preparatory for, if not requisite to, receiving resurrected celestial glory.  This is precisely what  the endowment (of we mortals) is all about. How you missed this, as you a mortal moved from room to room, is perplexing.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Wondering if you know the difference between a kingdom and other forms of government?  And what a citizen of a kingdom (or any official government) entails.

 

The Traveler

By worldly standards or godly standards. Kingdom has such a myriad of meaning we could be both thinking of vastly different things and neither be incorrect. Please get to the point.

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm well aware of the scriptural origins of this state. It occurs to me, just now, that if this statement is true, and presumably it is, then it would seem to follow that God, being the creator of the natural man, created His own enemy. 

God doesnt create evil, but because of his laws allow for the choice to obey or disobey evil thus can exist.

[wenglund]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, the bigger question back at you is if its impossible to repent of all our sins and become perfect in mortality why should we believe its possible in the next? 

Your questions repeat the same false assumptions about what we believe, and this after thoughtful and repeated correction.  Something is preventing your from correctly understanding us. It would prove useful to fix that if you wish to have productive conversations.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, Traveler said:

My impression is that you do not know what an heir is and to what an heir (especially joint heirs) is/are entitled - your response is as I thought - dodge the question - pretend you don't understand it.

 

The Traveler

An heir is entitled to become all powerful as the one who has that power. In this case its God- an heir in Gods kingdom is to receive that same power and authority- to become gods ourselves.

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, wenglund said:

That isn't how I see it. I believe we may attain the celestial kingdom on earth (not to be confused with the celestial kingdom of the resurrection), or in other words we may now abide celestial laws and covenants while in mortality, and this preparatory for, if not requisite to, receiving resurrected celestial glory.  This is precisely what  the endowment (of we mortals) is all about. How you missed this, as you a mortal moved from room to room, is perplexing.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So then, why isnt the earth now in celestial glory if we know it transgresseth not the law? This proves my point. We do not receive the crowns of celestial glory until after the millennium.

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Your questions repeat the same false assumptions about what we believe, and this after thoughtful and repeated correction.  Something is preventing your from correctly understanding us. It would prove useful to fix that if you wish to have productive conversations.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thats only your perception, I see it very clear. Perhaps maybe we are speaking of different things?

[wenglund]

14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The deception and temptations of Satan are real and we are but just little children for the most part that havent had the right experience and knowledge to get over it yet. But it will happen.

This assumes that the children will invariably, for the most part, gain the right experience and knowledge to get over it. To me, there is a wealth of evidence throughout the world as well as in the scriptures to suggest otherwise, and this to varying degrees and in varying ways.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, wenglund said:

This assumes that the children will invariably, for the most part, gain the right experience and knowledge to get over it. To me, there is a wealth of evidence throughout the world as well as in the scriptures to suggest otherwise, and this to varying degrees and in varying ways.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

You must think that God must miserably fail in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Did we all not choose to come to earth in hopes of advancing to become like our Father in Heaven? Yet we are told Christ will indeed lose "nothing" of those which the Father shall give to him to save, save for the sons of perdition. And how are they saved? Through obedience to the saving laws and ordinances of His kingdom. There is no other way.

[Rob Osborn]

One of my favorite scruptures-

 

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off. (Mosiah 27:25-27)

[wenglund]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So then, why isnt the earth now in celestial glory if we know it transgresseth not the law? This proves my point. We do not receive the crowns of celestial glory until after the millennium.

That is because the purpose of the earth for a time is to provide a place to which we may fall as well as ascend to varying degrees  One cannot fall to a celestialized earth. Obviously. That is why it is currently telestial in nature, and won't be celestialized until after the resurrection. This, along with my previous explanation about some people abiding a celestial law on earth, ought to give enhanced meaning to the phrase, live in the world but not of it..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

Building line upon line, here is the next scripture-

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the churchof the Firstborn. (D&C 93:21-22)

Edited May 3, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

That is because the purpose of the earth for a time is to provide a place to which we may fall as well as ascend to varying degrees  One cannot fall to a celestialized earth. Obviously. That is why it is currently telestial in nature, and won't be celestialized until after the resurrection. This, along with my previous explanation about some people abiding a celestial law on earth, ought to give enhanced meaning to the phrase, live in the world but not of it..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yeah, no one I know is living the celestial law while on earth as no mortal I know is perfect.