Repentance after death

[zil]

10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I reject the "we are who we are eternally and we're just trying to figure out who we are so we'll be where we're the happiest" kind of philosophies.

Just for the record, because part of the above is something I believe, I do not believe the above philosophy in quotes.

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

Just for the record, because part of the above is something I believe, I do not believe the above philosophy in quotes.

I suspect many do not believe this...but it comes across at times as if they do. A great deal of my responses are to get this clarified. As can be seen by some of the recent replies, my views must also often be clarified.

[Jersey Boy]

On 4/6/2018 at 9:30 PM, pam said:

So this is a subject I have a really hard time understanding.  Mainly because I keep seeing so many conflicting opinions on the subject.

So I have always learned that this life is the time to repent and get our lives in order and on the right path.  Yet many say that after death we have the chance to repent so that we can progress.

I understand those that have never had the opportunity to learn of Jesus Christ or of the gospel.  I totally get that.  But what of those who didn't do that who did have the opportunity.  Members who chose their own path instead of following the commandments and gospel teachings and principles. 

I guess I just don't get why anyone who chose NOT to repent would get another chance in the next life.  What would be the purpose of our journey and testing in this life?

I realize that this is all between the individual and God but I still get confused over the conflicting opinions.

 

Read Doctrine and Covenants 138 thoroughly and carefully with no preconceived ideas and an open mind.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Read Doctrine and Covenants 138 thoroughly and carefully with no preconceived ideas and an open mind.

So cast off all other gospel teachings and anything the prophets and apostle, manuals, etc., have to say on the matter?

[The Folk Prophet]

As I was following through with @Jersey Boy's advice to carefully read through D&C 138 (though I reject the idea of completely discarding pre-conceived ideas), I came across the following:

vs 32-34 in D&C 138 say:

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

and D&C 76 vs 71-74 says:

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

D&C 138 is clearly referencing D&C 76 here (which references 1 Peter 4) and clearly speaking of those who will be terrestrial.

This idea backs up the thinking that the 138:59 reference "according to their works" means their life's works, and that despite their post-life repentance, which all will accept for salvation's sake, those who had the opportunity to repent in this life but did not (those who, in transgression, rejected the prophets), will indeed repent in the next life, but will go to, at the most, the Terrestrial Kingdom.

Here's Joseph Fielding Smith on the same:

"If a person is in every way worthy of the blessings and was denied them while living, then any time after death the ordinances may be performed. If the person had every opportunity to receive these blessings in person and refused, or through procrastination and lack of faith did not receive them, then he is not entitled to them, and it is doubtful if the work for him will be valid if done within one week or 1,000 years. The Lord has declared that it is he who endures to the end that shall be saved, and he who rejects or neglects these blessings until death, when he has had the opportunity, is not worthy of them.” - Doctrines of Salvation, 2:179

D&C 138 in no way contradicts this idea. The new revelation it provides is unrelated to this sort of teaching.

[Jersey Boy]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So cast off all other gospel teachings and anything the prophets and apostle, manuals, etc., have to say on the matter?

There were people who found their way out of the Church at the time D&C 76 was revealed because they couldn’t get their previously entrenched ideas concerning the plan of salvation out of their minds long enough to allow themselves to consider the possibility that there is more than just one post-resurrection realm of heavenly glory. D&C 138 was revealed 86 years after D&C 76 was revealed and enlarges upon D&C 76 in the same way D&C 76 enlarges upon the plan of salvation as presented in the Book of Mormon.

Why would the gospel of Christ, including the ordinances of baptism for the remission of sins and the laying on on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, be taught to those who rejected the authorized gospel message and rebelled against the prophets while in the flesh if the blessings of those ordinances are unavailable to them. Are they taught these things just to rub their faces in their iniquities and torment them with their hopeless situation?

Remember, D&C 138 was revealed ito Joseph F Smith n response to his wonderment concerning certain verses of scripture from Peter’s 2nd Epistle that had deeply impressed him in a way those verses never had before...

6 I opened the Bible and read the third and fourth chapters of the first epistle of Peter, and as I read I was greatly impressed, more than I had ever been before, with the following passages:

7 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

8 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

9 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18–20.)

10 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)

So the whole reason why Joseph F Smith enquired of the Lord concerning the above verses of scripture was so that he could understand why the Lord would allow the gospel to be preached to a great multitude of people who were ultimately destroyed in the great flood because the had rejected and rebelled against the gospel Noah’ taught them for hundreds of years without success.

19 And the Lord ordained Noah after his own order, and commanded him that he should go forth and declare his Gospel unto the children of men, even as it was given unto Enoch.

20 And it came to pass that Noah called upon the children of men that they should repent; but they hearkened not unto his words;

21 And also, after that they had heard him, they came up before him, saying: Behold, we are the sons of God; have we not taken unto ourselves the daughters of men? And are we not eating and drinking, and marrying and giving in marriage? And our wives bear unto us children, and the same are mighty men, which are like unto men of old, men of great renown. And they hearkened not unto the words of Noah.

22 And God saw that the wickedness of men had become great in the earth; and every man was lifted up in the imagination of the thoughts of his heart, being only evil continually.

23 And it came to pass that Noah continued his preaching unto the people, saying: Hearken, and give heed unto my words;

24 Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you; nevertheless they hearkened not. (Moses 8)

Again I ask you why would the Lord want the gospel of repentance, including baptism for the remission of sins and the Melchizedek Priesthood ordinance of the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, taught to such rebellious people if doing so is an act of utter futility and nothing but a pure waste of time? 

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[wenglund]

14 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

What one MIGHT do is to expand the understanding of a word,...

 

While you again didn't address my reasoning or my follow-up point on Exaltation, the cited portion of your quote above provides sufficient room for agreement, which is good enough for me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

There were people who found their way out of the Church at the time D&C 76 was revealed because they couldn’t get their previously entrenched ideas concerning the plan of salvation out of their minds long enough to allow themselves to consider the possibility that there is more than just one post-resurrection realm of heavenly glory. D&C 132 was revealed 86 years after D&C 76 was revealed and enlarges upon D&C 76 in the same way D&C 76 enlarges upon the plan of salvation as presented in the Book of Mormon.

But you're not talking about or to people who are receiving new revelation that changes some dynamic that they haven't heard before. Your suggesting that we cast off the 100 years of teachings by leaders of the church, the way we, 100 years of knowledge later, were raised and taught, and what the current manuals continue to teach on the matter...and just turn a blind eye to all of that and read D&C 138 as if it's new revelation without that context.

I agree section 132 enlarges on section 76. Just not the way you and some others seem to believe it does. What it does not do, in any regard, is render previous revelation wrong.

9 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Why would the gospel of Christ, including the ordinances of baptism for the remission of sins and the laying on on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, be taught to those who rejected the authorized gospel message and rebelled against the prophets while in the flesh if the blessings of those ordinances are unavailable to them. Are they taught these things just to rub their faces in their iniquities and torment them with their lost hopeless situation?

Because SOME of the blessings of those ordinances will be, clearly, still available to them.

11 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Again I ask you why would the Lord want the gospel of repentance, including baptism for the remission of sins and the Melchizedek Priesthood ordinance of the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, taught to such rebellious people if doing so is an act of utter futility and nothing but a pure waste of time?

I'm not sure where you get the idea that it is an act of utter futility and nothing but a pure waste of time.

All mankind who are saved (in any kingdom) are saved by obedience to ordinances. Without Christ and those ordinances there would be no salvation at all.

I don't want to read through this entire thread again to remind myself of your position. Would you mind stating it in plain language. I'm not sure what you're trying to present, particularly what might be contrary to what I am.

[wenglund]

On 4/28/2018 at 8:27 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

Also...just for clarity's sake:

D&C 76:112

And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Food point. And, by way of distinguishing the lower from the highest kingdom, while those in the lower kingdoms shall be servants, those in the Celestial kingdom will be called friends (D$C 93:45.51)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 29, 2018 by wenglund

[wenglund]

8 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You were not implying, it struck me, that anyone who enjoys fishing is Telestial material...and I wasn't responding as if that were the case. You seemed to be implying that those who chose fishing over God (which is, plainly, a wicked choice), would find greater happiness in the end from that wicked choice.

Actually, the intent of my analogy was to  illustrate how people can self-select lower kingdoms based on personal preferences,  Lower kingdom activities and conditions may seem more attractive, or suitable , or preferably familiar to some people than the highest kingdom with it greater burden of responsibility--just as some people today prefer line and staff work to corner offices and board rooms.

Perhaps a better analogy is the children of Israel at the time of Moses and the great exodus (today's Sunday School lesson). Even though the children of Israel were liberated from slavery and  were given the prospects of a promised land full of milk and honey, and in spite of many miracles (receiving the purified water and the bread of life and the healing serpent on a staff--all emblematic of Christ), there were several times during their 40 year journey that many of them expressed deep regret and preferred to be back in Egypt. In fact, while Moses was on the mount preparing to bring the true God into their midst, Isreal effectively brought in Egypt and the false gods, to their condemnation.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jersey Boy]

On 4/29/2018 at 5:15 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

But you're not talking about or to people who are receiving new revelation that changes some dynamic that they haven't heard before. Your suggesting that we cast off the 100 years of teachings by leaders of the church, the way we, 100 years of knowledge later, were raised and taught, and what the current manuals continue to teach on the matter...and just turn a blind eye to all of that and read D&C 138 as if it's new revelation without that context.

I agree section 132 enlarges on section 76. Just not the way you and some others seem to believe it does. What it does not do, in any regard, is render previous revelation wrong.

Because SOME of the blessings of those ordinances will be, clearly, still available to them.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that it is an act of utter futility and nothing but a pure waste of time.

All mankind who are saved (in any kingdom) are saved by obedience to ordinances. Without Christ and those ordinances there would be no salvation at all.

I don't want to read through this entire thread again to remind myself of your position. Would you mind stating it in plain language. I'm not sure what you're trying to present, particularly what might be contrary to what I am.

I have read accounts pertaining to some early members of the Church who were either greatly offended, or even went so far as to leave the Church, because they were sure the teachings found D&C 76 were out of harmony with the Book of Mormon’s clearly-stated presentation of the plan of salvation. D&C 138 is similar to D&C 76 in this respect as it breaks new ground because 138 instructs us that the ordinances are taught to and expected of those who are, apparently, destined only for an inheritance in one of the lower kingdoms of glory. Before Section 138 was added to the LDS canon in 1978, I was well-familiar with the vision of Joseph F Smith and knew it would be a doctrinal “game changer” if ever it were added to the scriptures. Prior to the addition of Section 138 it was common to read comments like the following:

Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)

The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We (presently) know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330)

In spite of what Joseph Fielding Smith and past members of the First Presidency may have previously said, D&C 138 makes it clear the ordinances of baptism for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost are taught to departed spirits like the rebellious antediluvians who repeatedly rejected the gospel message of salvation that was preached to them by the prophet Noah until an offended God swept them away in the great flood. D&C 138 answers the question as to whether or not there are gospel ordinances required of those who, at least based on past teachings, seem to be destined to enter either the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms. The question then naturally arises as to whether or not the rebellious antediluvians, and others like them, also have the opportunity to obtain a celestial glory if they are able to muster a sufficient degree of saving faith and genuine sincerity in the quest to change for the better? And so we read:

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace; (D&C 138)

Continuing...

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to ALL the spirits of men; and thus was the Gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And ALL OTHER PRINCIPLES OF THE GOSPEL that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit (D&C 138)

The foregoing impels one to ask the following question: Why in the world are those who repeatedly rejected the gospel of Christ while in the flesh taught the gospel in the spirit world, including the need for them to accept its ordinances, if the ordinances of the gospel pertain only to those who inherit the celestial kingdom? I don’t pretend to know the answer to this question, but I am keeping an open mind on the subject until the definitive answer is revealed from heaven. The reason why I remain open-minded is because of the following testimony found in D&C 76...

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; (D&C 76)

So I keep an open mind because what has been revealed to us thus far concerning the plan of salvation is most definitely not a complete picture. I suspect when more is revealed one of the first things that will be disclosed ito us is why those who repeatedly rebelled against the prophets and rejected the gospel message while in the body are expected to submit to the ordinances of the gospel, ordinances that we have previously been taught are required only for those who inherit the celestial kingdom. As you can see, D&C 138 really is a doctrinal game changer that strongly suggests the need to reappraise our previous neat, tidy and simplistic understanding of the program of salvation for the dead, or to at very least suspend final judgement as to program’s particulars until the remainder of the vision of D&C 76 is finally revealed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[The Folk Prophet]

@Jersey Boy

I'm still not sure what you think the difference of opinion is here.

The only thing I don't really agree with in your post is that D&C 138 was/is some sort of doctrinal "game changer". Prior to D&C 138 we did work for the dead and left judgment to God. After D&C 138 we did work for the dead and left judgment to God.

What about D&C 138 forces us to reappraise our "neat and tidy" understanding? We do work for the dead and leave judgment to God. Has that changed?

Is anything in D&C 76 rendered wrong by D&C 138?

[Jersey Boy]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@Jersey Boy

I'm still not sure what you think the difference of opinion is here.

The only thing I don't really agree with in your post is that D&C 138 was/is some sort of doctrinal "game changer". Prior to D&C 138 we did work for the dead and left judgment to God. After D&C 138 we did work for the dead and left judgment to God.

What about D&C 138 forces us to reappraise our "neat and tidy" understanding? We do work for the dead and leave judgment to God. Has that changed?

Is anything in D&C 76 rendered wrong by D&C 138?

Read my post very carefully, from beginning to end, and see if your question is not answered.. I’ll respond more thoroughly when I return from work.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

Read my post very carefully, from beginning to end, and see if your question is not answered.. I’ll respond more thoroughly when I return from work.

I read your post "very carefully" the first time.

And my question is rhetorical, in that D&C is plainly not rendered wrong by D&C 138, and nothing has changed in regards to the fact that we do work for the dead and leave judgment to God.

The fact that baptism is theoretically requisite for salvation in the Telestial Kingdom is neither here nor there as to what we are about in this life and in our duty to God.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 4/29/2018 at 4:14 PM, wenglund said:

Actually, the intent of my analogy was to  illustrate how people can self-select lower kingdoms based on personal preferences,

But I would contend that this is flat wrong.

People do self-select, yes, but they do so based on their obedience, not on their carnal preferences. I consider this fact particularly important in today's culture of falsehoods, which teaches "preference" is so very important.

Obviously there's some complication in meanings here...and we may be saying the same thing.

On 4/29/2018 at 4:14 PM, wenglund said:

just as some people today prefer line and staff work to corner offices and board rooms.

Yeah...but...you see...someone who enjoys staff work to corner offices and board rooms finds greater joy in staff work. That will not be true of those in the Telestial. They will not find greater joy than those in the Celestial kingdom.

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yeah...but...you see...someone who enjoys staff work to corner offices and board rooms finds greater joy in staff work. That will not be true of those in the Telestial. They will not find greater joy than those in the Celestial kingdom.

They will not have greater joy then those in the Celestial Kingdom...  They personally will have greater joy in a lesser Glory then they personally would in greater Glory because they have rejected the Gift of the higher glory and refuse to live after that Higher manner of Happiness.  Thus they are at maximum personal happiness which is less then what they could have had otherwise

[zil]

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

People do self-select, yes, but they do so based on their obedience, not on their carnal preferences. I consider this fact particularly important in today's culture of falsehoods, which teaches "preference" is so very important.

But if a person chooses to stay home and watch the Super Bowl rather than attend church, are they not saying that their preference is for entertainment rather than obedience?

And if a person desires to watch the Super Bowl, but chooses to attend church instead, are they not saying that they prefer obedience over entertainment, in spite of their desire?

I know a lot of people would say, well, no, what I want to do is watch the Super Bowl, but I forced myself to go to church against that desire.  But I think their behavior belies their stated want - or at least demotes it to the position of "less want" and elevates eternal priorities into a position of "more want".

In other words, are not our actions - obedience or disobedience - a more accurate expression of our preferences than our words / thoughts / feelings?  And therefore, will not our true preferences drive those actions which result in our being assigned a kingdom which corresponds to both our actions and our strongest preferences?

In other other words, I sometimes hear people say that they really want [something].  [Something] is almost always attainable by the average mortal.  They don't like it when I point out that if they really wanted [something] they would do the things necessary to obtain [something].  "The things necessary" might be employment-related so they can get more money, or discipline-related such as diet and exercise, or time-and-skill-related such as more practice at some ability (and less time at something else).  That they don't do "the things necessary" just means that they don't want [something] as much as they want to not do "the things necessary".  I have yet to meet a person who doesn't confess that this is true.

I believe that is pretty much how the various degrees of glory will be.  If [something] is [the Celestial Kingdom] and "the things necessary" are "what God has commanded", then those who don't inherit [the Celestial Kingdom] will have preferred not doing "what God has commanded" over [the Celestial Kingdom].  Thus, they will get (the consequences of) what they prefer.

[The Folk Prophet]

53 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

They will not have greater joy then those in the Celestial Kingdom...  They personally will have greater joy in a lesser Glory then they personally would in greater Glory because they have rejected the Gift of the higher glory and refuse to live after that Higher manner of Happiness.  Thus they are at maximum personal happiness which is less then what they could have had otherwise

Maximum of personal happiness based on choices they made, maybe (I'm skeptical)...maximum of potential personal happiness that they could have had, no.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, zil said:

I know a lot of people would say, well, no, what I want to do is watch the Super Bowl, but I forced myself to go to church against that desire.  But I think their behavior belies their stated want - or at least demotes it to the position of "less want" and elevates eternal priorities into a position of "more want".

In other words, are not our actions - obedience or disobedience - a more accurate expression of our preferences than our words / thoughts / feelings?  And therefore, will not our true preferences drive those actions which result in our being assigned a kingdom which corresponds to both our actions and our strongest preferences?

Well, we have two sides of the argument there.

Quote

For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

On the other hand, we're all works in progress.  So, sometimes, we fake it till we make it.

[The Folk Prophet]

16 minutes ago, zil said:

But if a person chooses to stay home and watch the Super Bowl rather than attend church, are they not saying that their preference is for entertainment rather than obedience?

I don't think so. I prefer donuts to spinach. I often choose the latter because I know and trust it's better for me. I don't always "feel" healthy just because I ate spinach though. I trust...so I choose. I put off my preferences for what I believe to be better.

18 minutes ago, zil said:

And if a person desires to watch the Super Bowl, but chooses to attend church instead, are they not saying that they prefer obedience over entertainment, in spite of their desire?

I don't think so. But I guess it comes down to what one means by "prefer". I don't "prefer" pain to no pain ever. But I often choose pain anyhow.
 

20 minutes ago, zil said:

I know a lot of people would say, well, no, what I want to do is watch the Super Bowl, but I forced myself to go to church against that desire.  But I think their behavior belies their stated want - or at least demotes it to the position of "less want" and elevates eternal priorities into a position of "more want".

Sure. But I don't think that means they "prefer" something that they are accepting by pure faith. That is key, imo.

It's not like tasting bacon and then tasting avacodo and saying, "Hmm...I prefer the bacon." It's more like tasting bacon and avacado and then being told that if you don't ever eat bacon and always eat avacado you'll eventually be given something that tastes so much better than either of them that you can't even begin to comprehend it. You may trust that to be true and thereby put off the bacon. But that doesn't make it so you prefer the taste of avacado to the taste of bacon.

23 minutes ago, zil said:

In other words, are not our actions - obedience or disobedience - a more accurate expression of our preferences than our words / thoughts / feelings?  And therefore, will not our true preferences drive those actions which result in our being assigned a kingdom which corresponds to both our actions and our strongest preferences?

Once again, I don't think so. I don't believe anyone "prefers" pain and agony and hurt. There's a reason terms like long-suffering are used. We don't prefer the pain. We take it because we've been told it will lead to something that we WILL prefer, eventually, and we choose to trust that or we do not. But we will all, imo, prefer what God has promises us will bring us a fulness. 

28 minutes ago, zil said:

In other other words, I sometimes hear people say that they really want [something].  [Something] is almost always attainable by the average mortal.  They don't like it when I point out that if they really wanted [something] they would do the things necessary to obtain [something].  "The things necessary" might be employment-related so they can get more money, or discipline-related such as diet and exercise, or time-and-skill-related such as more practice at some ability (and less time at something else).  That they don't do "the things necessary" just means that they don't want [something] as much as they want to not do "the things necessary".  I have yet to meet a person who doesn't confess that this is true.

It's true in a perfect world. But if you take a child and teach them to wait to eat the marshmallow so they'll get a whole bag of marshmallows, many won't have the discipline to wait because they're children and incapable of associating long-term reward with short-term actions. That inability does not mean they didn't want the bag of marshmallows.

30 minutes ago, zil said:

I believe that is pretty much how the various degrees of glory will be.  If [something] is [the Celestial Kingdom] and "the things necessary" are "what God has commanded", then those who don't inherit [the Celestial Kingdom] will have preferred not doing "what God has commanded" over [the Celestial Kingdom].  Thus, they will get (the consequences of) what they prefer.

And I think it's going to be a bunch of folk who wanted (prefer) the bag of marshmallows but kept eating the marshmallow they had, and now they don't get the full bag. 

 

[Vort]

On 4/29/2018 at 2:16 PM, wenglund said:

Food point.

What exactly do you have to do to earn these? And how do you redeem them? I'm asking for a hungry friend.

[The Folk Prophet]

54 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

FWIW, "grudgingly" means in an unwilling manner. It doesn't mean, I think, that one dislikes spinach but willingly eats spinach with a positive attitude because they know it's good for them.  That is not grudgingly. Grudgingly is unwilling, grumpy, complain-y, reluctantly, resentfully, etc. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

FWIW, "grudgingly" means in an unwilling manner. It doesn't mean, I think, that one dislikes spinach but willingly eats spinach with a positive attitude because they know it's good for them.  That is not grudgingly. Grudgingly is unwilling, grumpy, complain-y, reluctantly, resentfully, etc. 

I agree.  I believe there is a middle ground where we're willing.  But it isn't internalized yet.  We hope to get to the point where it is internalized.

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, zil said:

But if a person chooses to stay home and watch the Super Bowl rather than attend church, are they not saying that their preference is for entertainment rather than obedience?

And if a person desires to watch the Super Bowl, but chooses to attend church instead, are they not saying that they prefer obedience over entertainment, in spite of their desire?

I know a lot of people would say, well, no, what I want to do is watch the Super Bowl, but I forced myself to go to church against that desire.  But I think their behavior belies their stated want - or at least demotes it to the position of "less want" and elevates eternal priorities into a position of "more want".

In other words, are not our actions - obedience or disobedience - a more accurate expression of our preferences than our words / thoughts / feelings?  And therefore, will not our true preferences drive those actions which result in our being assigned a kingdom which corresponds to both our actions and our strongest preferences?

 

This is not a serious response on my part, just trying to be funny (and failing most likely).

So, now days, I'd just DVR it and then go to church.  As long as no fool (I pity the fool) spoils it for me, I can attend church and watch the Super Bowl at 12:01 Monday Morning...

Right?

[Fifthziff]

On 4/6/2018 at 7:52 PM, bytebear said:

We continue to have the same personality, and temperament in the next life.  If you are resistant to repentance now, you will be in the next life, and so we will be free to chose but I think people who have chosen in this life will not be suddenly persuaded, just because they are spirits. 

It depends on what you mean by "personality and temperament".   Certainly the "personality and temperament" that the Lord sees, the inner man is continued.  We do not have any way, though, to know how much the outer man "personality and temperament" is continued into the next life.  One proof of that is how we would look at the temperament of one who has paranoid schizophrenia, I doubt that one would say that that particular temperament would continue into the next life.  As dramatic as that is example is, one would have to understand that we all have corrupted bodies (brains) that make us lower beings than our spirit's personality would otherwise reflect.  The question to ponder is how much lower?  For some reason, some people think that we haven't fallen that far, that we are only a little bit blocked by the veil or we have only fallen a little.  If one believes that, then I could see how one would suggest that our outward personality continues to the next.  I believe that we have fallen dramatically, to a hardly recognizable state of being during this life.  I can't imagine millions and millions of years (or however long it was) developing into mature spirit beings in the presence of our Heavenly Father looks anything like our current set of attributes.  This life is a fallen test state that has no 1:1 correlation or other constant formula that we can determine with our previous life or the one to come in terms of the number of talents or traits we have here, for example, those with Down's syndrome have no comparative correlation between spirit intelligence vs human brain (natural being) intelligence.