Guest Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Vort said: Actually, I can tell you that. But that's not what I'm saying. The fact that you don't understand that simple fact merely confirms my belief that you are incapable of nuanced discussion. And the fact that you don't understand means you have a very narrow view of abuse or the effects thereof. I am glad you or any of those close to you haven't had to deal with the effect of child abuse let alone sexual abuse of a child. Edited June 29, 2018 by miav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlimac Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, bytebear said: It comes from a crisis within the church. Gay members are leaving. And it's pretty clear the church is making efforts to not shun them, and to keep them active and involved. At least that's the message I am reading from all of the church's activities of the last few years. I think it has more to do with potential religious tolerance issues than gay members leaving. It also probably has something to do with the church being blamed for every suicide of a gay LDS youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeccaKirstyn Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 8 minutes ago, Vort said: No, they are not. The rape/abuse victim can still choose for himself or herself. Choose what?? Choose to not be raped? Because that's the context we're talking about here. I'm pretty sure if a child had the choice to not be raped, every child would choose to do so. Their ability to utilize their agency to get out of that situation is hindered. I see the point you're trying to make about physically removing agency all together. But their ability to choose is hindered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Overwatch said: I heard of him teaching publicans and sinners. Are you familiar with him "hanging out" with whores? And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples I guess you can choose the sin, or decide if having dinner is "hanging out" but he certainly didn't shun them. Edited June 29, 2018 by bytebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, miav said: And the fact that you don't understand means you have a very narrow view of abuse or the effects thereof. I am glad you or any of those close to you have had to deal with the effect of child abuse let alone sexual abuse of a child. So hostile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 Apparently it needs to be said: Agency is not the same thing as physical freedom. Agency is not the same thing as physical capacity. Agency is not the same thing as having a gazillion dollars so that you can really do anything you want. Agency isn't the same thing as omnipotence. Agency does not require any of those things or a zillion others we could use in order to be agency. Grunt and Vort 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, bytebear said: And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples I guess you can choose the sin, but he certainly didn't shun them. He also didn't throw a concert with a known brothel owner. With her business Title plastered for all to see. Edited June 29, 2018 by Overwatch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 1 hour ago, lostinwater said: @BeccaKirstyn - this isn't directed at you. i hope you don't take it that way. You just have a very good way of stating things that encompass the heart of a lot of threads. People tend to build strong identities around aspects of themselves that have historically (and to an extent still largely do though in more subtle forms) resulted in their being imprisoned, despised, shunned, condemned, executed, murdered, tortured, excommunicated, and committed to insane asylums. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people And before anyone writes this kind of stuff off as being over-cited exceptionalism of the liberal left, i recommend you head down to a shelter for LGBT youth that have been disowned/kicked out by their families or roommates or friends (just about every city has one) and have a talk with a few of the people there. You'll find lots of first hand accounts. There's been an attempt to eradicate homosexuality (or in many/most places the homosexuals themselves) for the past several thousand years. It's scope and sophistication and level of organization would make the average gay pride parade organization blush to the ears with insufficiency. And for the record, i'm not advocating promotion of the homosexual lifestyle in schools or the like. Honestly, i don't have a horse in this race - but i know lots of people who do. And i hate to break it to everyone - but by and large, they're not out to get you. They're not evil demons. They volunteer, and cry, and get sick, and go bankrupt, and have meaningful relationships, and bleed the same as everyone else. Pretty much, they don't really care who you marry or what your family looks like - and are sort of confused at why that's a one-way street (just talking from their perspective). They're not even close to being the main cause of the disintegration of the family, and God doesn't have special asteroids singled out just for their destruction - suddenly waking with wrath after sleeping through genocide or famine or pestilence. i mean, if the goal is to drive wedges and convince ourselves and our children that homosexuality is the most evil, horrifically bad, worthless evil wave of filth that has ever swept across the face of the earth - then full steam ahead. Though it's no longer legal to murder or imprison the homosexuals - so please keep this in mind when evaluating the long-term effectiveness of your efforts. But i'd suggest that reaching out where you comfortably can (and i support other people's rights to define that as they choose - like i really do) may be a better choice. Anyways, not responding on this thread any more. It's just an opinion/point of view that is worth slightly less than what you paid for it. Not one i'm attempting to ram down anyone's throats. All the more reason to extend offers like the one that we are talking about. People who get attacked can go reflexively on the defensive (See this forums response to even a hint of Anti-Mormonism) Completely blocking everything We are never going to be able to reach the homosexual group of people as long as long they are reflexively categorizing us in the same group that terrorizes them. They are no more going to listen to us then we are going to listen to someone we have labeled Anti-Mormon. We have to change how they perceive us before we have any chance of them being willing to listen to the words of Christ we want to share. And yes changing someone negative perception of us is hard to do... But it is something that MoTab has been doing (or trying to do) for the LDS faith since it started. carlimac and lostinwater 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 Just now, Overwatch said: So hostile I meant "haven't had to deal", clearly a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, Overwatch said: He also didn't throw a concert with a known brothel owner. That we know of. And now we know that His church did a concert with homosexuals. Edited June 29, 2018 by bytebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, bytebear said: That we know of. And now we know that His church did a concert with homosexuals. Mortals are subject to faults. You assume that he commanded it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 I trust the church's judgement over yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeccaKirstyn Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 Agency: "...the ability to choose and act for yourself"--True to the Faith. Not trying to make a fight here. Truly curious how others view agency in this scenario of rape/abuse (both of children and of non-consenting adults). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 Just now, bytebear said: I trust the church's judgement over yours. weak bro Vort 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlimac Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, estradling75 said: All the more reason to extend offers like the one that we are talking about. People who get attacked can go reflexively on the defensive (See this forums response to even a hint of Anti-Mormonism) Completely blocking everything We are never going to be able to reach the homosexual group of people as long as long they are reflexively categorizing us in the same group that terrorizes them. They are no more going to listen to us then we are going to listen to someone we have labeled Anti-Mormon. We have to change how they perceive us before we have any chance of them being willing to listen to the words of Christ we want to share. And yes changing someone negative perception of us is hard to do... But it is something that MoTab has been doing (or trying to do) for the LDS faith since it started. I don't think many homosexuals want to listen to our message, even after singing with the MoTab. There are a few who have converted and given up their ways- (Elder Christofferson's brother who wrote the book). But I still think this concert was more of a PR move than anything. I think it's entirely possible for the two groups to get along. But not many will convert to the others' way of thinking or way of life. Edited June 29, 2018 by carlimac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, zil said: Apparently it needs to be said: Agency is not the same thing as physical freedom. Agency is not the same thing as physical capacity. Agency is not the same thing as having a gazillion dollars so that you can really do anything you want. Agency isn't the same thing as omnipotence. Agency does not require any of those things or a zillion others we could use in order to be agency. Agency is defined as "Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves." I don't see anyting that says that doesn't include physical ability. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/agency Edited June 29, 2018 by miav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 14 minutes ago, bytebear said: You don't think Jesus hung out with whores? I do not, unless you think that visiting with and ministering to constitutes hanging out with. Of course, in that case, Christ also hung out with Pharisees. He very clearly hung out with Judas Iscariot, whom John reported Jesus as saying was "the son of perdition". So if Jesus "hanging out with" someone is supposed to be evidence that he approved of them, the apparently Christ approved of everyone, no matter how wicked. Overwatch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, Overwatch said: weak bro Not really. There are entire sects of fundamentalists who believed as you believe now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, Vort said: I do not, unless you think that visiting with and ministering to constitutes hanging out with. Of course, in that case, Christ also hung out with Pharisees. He very clearly hung out with Judas Iscariot, whom John reported Jesus as saying was "the son of perdition". So if Jesus "hanging out with" someone is supposed to be evidence that he approved of them, the apparently Christ approved of everyone, no matter how wicked. That was a nuke. Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 1 minute ago, carlimac said: I don't think many homosexuals want to listen to our message, even after singing with the MoTab. There are a few who have converted and given up their ways- (Elder Christofferson's brother who wrote the book). But I still think this concert was more of a PR move than anything. I think it's entirely possible for the two groups to get along. But not many will convert to the others' way of thinking or way of life. Trying to change how someone views you is totally a PR move. PR moves are not inherently wrong and are in fact some times the right thing to do. As for converting... it is hard to convert anyone that prefers their sin... it always has been. But it is impossible to convert someone that will not even listen to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, Vort said: I do not, unless you think that visiting with and ministering to constitutes hanging out with. Of course, in that case, Christ also hung out with Pharisees. He very clearly hung out with Judas Iscariot, whom John reported Jesus as saying was "the son of perdition". So if Jesus "hanging out with" someone is supposed to be evidence that he approved of them, the apparently Christ approved of everyone, no matter how wicked. I never said one thing about approval of their sins. Jesus hung out with them, and the Choir sung with them because they love them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 1 minute ago, bytebear said: Not really. There are entire sects of fundamentalists who believed as you believe now. They most likely will be better off than you in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeccaKirstyn Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 14 minutes ago, zil said: Apparently it needs to be said: Agency is not the same thing as physical freedom. Agency is not the same thing as physical capacity. Agency is not the same thing as having a gazillion dollars so that you can really do anything you want. Agency isn't the same thing as omnipotence. Agency does not require any of those things or a zillion others we could use in order to be agency. Okay--I think I get the point you're making now. Skimmed over this talk: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks_free-agency-freedom/ Is this what you mean? zil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 Just now, bytebear said: I never said one thing about approval of their sins. Jesus hung out with them, and the Choir sung with them because they love them. They could have left his title out. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Overwatch said: They most likely will be better off than you in the end. You're judging me now? Wow. Just wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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