Is the Pope in trouble

[john4truth]

On 8/29/2018 at 11:15 AM, estradling75 said:

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by john4truth
Errors

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, john4truth said:

LoL there are even claims pedophiles are becoming priest to have easy access and legal protection. This is not the first time Catholicism had organized planned violations of the laws of chastity. This being said somehow Christians must clean our act and.unite. 

Until some shred of evidence is produced, I consider this type of statement to be scurrilous hatemongering, no different from those who look for any excuse, no matter how weak or false, to smear the Church (or the Republican party, or Donald Trump, or Barack Obama). We should be above this sort of thing.

[carlimac]

On 9/8/2018 at 1:43 PM, Vort said:

Until some shred of evidence is produced, I consider this type of statement to be scurrilous hatemongering, no different from those who look for any excuse, no matter how weak or false, to smear the Church (or the Republican party, or Donald Trump, or Barack Obama). We should be above this sort of thing.

I guess we'll see. I think this is only the beginning. There are now 5 other states looking into this problem.  I wouldn't be surprised to see many more states join the investigation, too. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/06/nyregion/catholic-sex-abuse.html

Could have just been some bad apples in Pennsylvania or it could be even more widespread. If it is, there has to be something identifiable behind it. I'm no statistician but it just feels like there are way more offenders in this group of men than one would find in a random sampling of all men across the country. 

 

Here is a really interesting homily written by a priest. It's very informative and sheds light on what may be going on. Not pedophiles so much as homosexuals and communists. Go ahead and read this. Not my words but his 👇.

https://www.romancatholicman.com/fr-robert-altiers-truthful-homily-about-the-current-crisis-in-the-church/

Edited September 9, 2018 by carlimac

[john4truth]

On 8/28/2018 at 3:22 PM, anatess2 said:

 

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by john4truth
Errors

[john4truth]

On 9/8/2018 at 12:43 PM, Vort said:

 

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by john4truth
Errors

[anatess2]

9 hours ago, john4truth said:

I believe in the most serious cases where people died the death sentence is way  provide to the start of the repentance process

In LDS belief, sure.  In Catholic belief, repentance and marriage end at death.

[anatess2]

9 hours ago, john4truth said:

Are there not massive groups of those molested . It seems at times the public does understand before the experts finish talking in  circles.  Not hate mongering. If person is a pedophile. This one way or another should stop access to you ,anything less is pedophiles governing pedophile s. Protection for one child is not hate mongering.it is sad the numbers will be a million before someone will end this satanic behavior by these who except being a pedophile as normal. If a child is abused by an adult it's wrong every time... No more access to any youth.

Pedophilia in the Catholic Church is a mortal sin.  Pedophilia by a priest who is charged with the Lord's flock even more so.  This is not about protection for one child - it is hatemongering to accuse the Catholic Church of not protecting children.  This is about what people consider JUST.  Non-Catholics do not believe Canon Law is sufficient justice.  Catholics do.

[john4truth]

On 9/11/2018 at 8:41 AM, anatess2 said:

Should have said accept

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by john4truth
Errors

[john4truth]

On 9/11/2018 at 8:41 AM, anatess2 said:

Pedophilia in the Catholic Church is a mortal sin.  Pedophilia by a priest who is charged with the Lord's flock even more so.  This is not about protection for one child - it is hatemongering to accuse the Catholic Church of not protecting children.  This is about what people consider JUST.  Non-Catholics do not believe Canon Law is sufficient justice.  Catholics do.

Agreed, I believe a church's punishment may not be enough to protect children.

This is not hate mongering. What their religion is does not matter to me. I am sure it has happened in all churches. A church leader is not qualified to make decisions concerning child molesters. The country they are in should be told.

Psychologist say they cannot change. The only only deterrent  is keeping them away from children.

What is next allowing fundamental Mormons to rape children in the name of plural marriage. No rape should go unreported to authorities. Zero tolerance, anything else should allow any further molested to own the offender's Church. This has as much to do with Mormons as Catholicism. The only hatred is for pedophilia, excuses based on Church law's is based on sheltering the pedophile

This is foolishness, do we next allow Muslims to stone gays and whoever the please and allow the abuse of women. We are a country of laws and a Church can't abuse children and hide by saying they make their own rules. Sorry Canon Law is only the law at the Vatican. This has nothing to do with Catholicism other than the fact that their recent, historically, law of non marriage is a failure. Life long abstinence rarely is followed in any religion. I have no problem with the  Catholic church other than the sad fact that their method of abatement for pedophilia is a failure and if corrected all is well.

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, john4truth said:

Agreed, I believe a church's punishment may not be enough to protect children.

This is not hate mongering. What their religion is does not matter to me. I am sure it has happened in all churches. A church leader is not qualified to make decisions concerning child molesters. The country they are in should be told.

Psychologist say they cannot change. The only only deterrent  is keeping them away from children.

What is next allowing fundamental Mormons to rape children in the name of plural marriage. No rape should go unreported to authorities. Zero tolerance, anything else should allow any further molested to own the offender's Church. This has as much to do with Mormons as Catholicism. The only hatred is for pedophilia, excuses based on Church law's is based on sheltering the pedophile

This is foolishness, do we next allow Muslims to stone gays and whoever the please and allow the abuse of women. We are a country of laws and a Church can't abuse children and hide by saying they make their own rules. Sorry Canon Law is only the law at the Vatican. This has nothing to do with Catholicism other than the fact that their recent, historically, law of non marriage is a failure. Life long abstinence rarely is followed in any religion. I have no problem with the  Catholic church other than the sad fact that their method of abatement for pedophilia is a failure and if corrected all is well.

You have not paid attention to this thread. I suggest you read all the important discussions that have already been hashed.  Everything I’m going to say below has been discussed thoroughly in this thread.

All Priests are citizens of the Vatican.  The Vatican follows Canon Law.  The Vatican is the last Catholic State left after the European Monarchy lost political rule of their estates, but they still are recognized as a sovereign state.

And yes, this is the same situation with Islamic States ruled by Sharia Law.   Jewish States used to be ruled by Halacha law but Israel is the only Jewish State left and they adopted a non-Halacha system of government.  In addition, this is also the same as a Filipino-American committing a crime - which Law supersedes - US or Philippine Constitution?

Now, if you’re going to claim that the American Justice System is superior to any of the world’s justice systems, you’re not going to go far with that argument with the Vatican or the devout Catholics.  Saying that Canon Law is inferior to the US Constitution because a Priest was able to commit pedophilia after he went through the Canon process is disingenuous in the face of the number of pedophiles that went through the US justice system committing the same crime again.   If you’re going to claim that America does not recognize dual citizenship and therefore Canon Law holds no authority over the Priest then you’re going to have a better argument.

Edited September 13, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

If you have to ask "Is X in trouble?" Then X is probably in trouble. 

[john4truth]

22 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by john4truth
Errors

[john4truth]

I am surprised Canon law says a Catholic who marries another faith is excommunicated or at least a friend was threatened when compared.

[john4truth]

On 9/8/2018 at 4:41 PM, carlimac said:

I guess we'll see. I think this is only the beginning. There are now 5 other states looking into this problem.  I wouldn't be surprised to see many more states join the investigation, too. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/06/nyregion/catholic-sex-abuse.html

Could have just been some bad apples in Pennsylvania or it could be even more widespread. If it is, there has to be something identifiable behind it. I'm no statistician but it just feels like there are way more offenders in this group of men than one would find in a random sampling of all men across the country. 

 

Here is a really interesting homily written by a priest. It's very informative and sheds light on what may be going on. Not pedophiles so much as homosexuals and communists. Go ahead and read this. Not my words but his 👇.

https://www.romancatholicman.com/fr-robert-altiers-truthful-homily-about-the-current-crisis-in-the-church/

A shocking must read if true

Edited September 14, 2018 by john4truth
Errors

[john4truth]

There's a reason why when the Bible is correctly translated from the original tongue, the scripture says a bishop should be a man with a wife.

[anatess2]

12 hours ago, john4truth said:

You are correct that I have not followed this thread. I am shocked there  are no secular or Canon laws to prevent them from abusing children after such an extreme time to clean up their act. I would require priest citizenship or some measure that would protect children. Moving priest about may prevent a true knowledge of if they repeat. If every area was aware of previous offender's I am sure the reports would increase. I see any resulting suicide as murder. If Canon law allows  pedophile priest access to children from a psychological standpoint of the risk, Canon law is as flawed as Sharia Law and the public is justified in being educationally justified for calling for changes for the priest to stay in the U.S. . I understand that Catholicism is liberal compared to U.S. law believing they have a spiritual answer. I know legally this is tricky but if not changed this creates a loophole where by all  that anyone has to do to is find a place to set up their own "country" and they are then free to commit the worst of sins unabated. I apologize if this has been covered. It is disturbing they are able to be priest after years of offense, after any process. As some one who is politically active I question the legal system. A prominent psychologist says a pedophile must be protected from himself in every case. I will not go forward with this thread to avoid debate. One repeat is too many.

Then start reading so you don't spout off stupid things.

 

[unixknight]

17 hours ago, MormonGator said:

If you have to ask "Is X in trouble?" Then X is probably in trouble. 

Is MormonGator in trouble?

 

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Is MormonGator in trouble?

 

Ok, I was just skimming the "Unread thread" summaries and it came up as--

"Is the Pope is trouble?

Is MormonGater in trouble?"

ah....

[Traveler]

There has been a very interesting discussion in what some would call "punishment".  In our country of the United States of America (as also many Western style democratic republics) are based in old European Common Law.  This Common Law has a long period of precedence that some scholars believe go back to elements of paganism in ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt.  Defiantly, there are reflections from early Christian (Catholic) theology.  In the USA a person that commits a serious crime is sent to prison - which is by definition a penal system.  In essence a person convicted is sentenced for "punishment".  As we trace back the legal meaning of such terms - a convicted person is required to perform penitence.  This is quite different from the other ancient Judaical concept (from the Mosaic Law) of an eye for an eye.  It is kind of like the school kid that is required to write, "I will not pull hair" on a black board 500 times.

There is no requirement of restitution for crime.  In essence a person is sentenced to "do time".  There may be some restitution in "civil" court but in criminal court - restoration is not configured in punishment.  All of this may give some precedence to the greater discussion of what is required for restitution, or remission of sin.  Personally I am more favorable  to the idea of "natural consequence" rather than applied "punishment" or penitence - which in essence implies temporary or limited payment. 

When I began this thread - I did not foresee that it would evolve into discussions of how a sinner ought to be held accountable.  Or in essence the very meaning of accountability.   Concerning the Atonement - there is a payment or redemption for sin - but as I read I am convinced that no one seems to know what payment or redemption for sin is - and the more I think of it - I am not sure I do either.  In the case of child abuse - what payment could compensate for that?  or for that matter - compensate for anything done as a painful transgression against another?  I am thinking that someone suffering is not the complete answer - maybe not even much of an answer.  So someone that causes me to have a bad day is required to suffer?  And that will me me all better???   So I am thinking I do not understand the Atonement as well as I thought I did.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

When I began this thread - I did not foresee that it would evolve into discussions of how a sinner ought to be held accountable.  Or in essence the very meaning of accountability.   Concerning the Atonement - there is a payment or redemption for sin - but as I read I am convinced that no one seems to know what payment or redemption for sin is - and the more I think of it - I am not sure I do either.  In the case of child abuse - what payment could compensate for that?  or for that matter - compensate for anything done as a painful transgression against another?  I am thinking that someone suffering is not the complete answer - maybe not even much of an answer.  So someone that causes me to have a bad day is required to suffer?  And that will me me all better???   So I am thinking I do not understand the Atonement as well as I thought I did.

 

The Traveler

I'm quite certain you understand the Atonement just fine.  Maybe where the issue is - is the desire to take on Christ's job of judgment to exact one's own price.  This is the beauty of the Canon Law.  The law does not just try to save the soul of the perpetrator, it also tries to save the soul of the victim as he goes through the hell of vengeance, hate, and the desire to exact his own price for the sin of the perpetrator instead of trusting God on the matter.

The Penal System should only have 1 objective and that is to prevent a perp from committing more sin.  Putting him in jail to "serve time" with no objective of rehabilitation is a useless system to society as a perp has made no effort to change and be a productive member of society after time is served.

Edited September 13, 2018 by anatess2

[Traveler]

31 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'm quite certain you understand the Atonement just fine.  Maybe where the issue is - is the desire to take on Christ's job of judgment to exact one's own price.  This is the beauty of the Canon Law.  The law does not just try to save the soul of the perpetrator, it also tries to save the soul of the victim as he goes through the hell of vengeance, hate, and the desire to exact his own price for the sin of the perpetrator instead of trusting God on the matter.

The Penal System should only have 1 objective and that is to prevent a perp from committing more sin.  Putting him in jail to "serve time" with no objective of rehabilitation is a useless system to society as a perp has made no effort to change and be a productive member of society after time is served.

Are you suggestion that the human concept of penitence (punishment) is a concept that has never been successful - and likely not what the final judgement and Hell is really about?  I have held the opinion for some time that the final judgement is not so much reward and punishment as it is acknowledging and achieving what we desire.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Are you suggestion that the human concept of penitence (punishment) is a concept that has never been successful - and likely not what the final judgement and Hell is really about?  I have held the opinion for some time that the final judgement is not so much reward and punishment as it is acknowledging and achieving what we desire.

 

The Traveler

I believe that penitence is a punishment one puts on oneself.

[john4truth]

11 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 😈

Hiding

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by john4truth
Errors

[john4truth]

Wisdom is recognizing how little the smartest person knows

Edited September 14, 2018 by john4truth

[john4truth]

Yes the pope is in trouble

Edited September 14, 2018 by john4truth
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