Does this confuse anyone else?

[carlimac]

In reading Alma 37:44-45 we have Alma commanding his son Helaman ( About 73 B.C.) about following the "words of Christ".  Which words of Christ would those be?   I guess I think of "the words of Christ" as being those that he spoke while on the earth. And yet he hadn't lived on the earth yet?  Is Alma referring to anything Jehovah said in the Old Testament?  Is Jesus ever referred to as "Christ" in the Old Testament? In doing a quick cursory glance in the Topical Guide, I don't see any reference to "Christ" in the books of the Old Testament. The only place he is called "Christ" before he was actually  born is in the Book of Mormon. 

So is this one of those things explained in apologetics that in translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith often used words in English that he knew but weren't necessarily used in 73 B.C.? 

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, carlimac said:

So is this one of those things explained in apologetics that in translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith often used words in English that he knew but weren't necessarily used in 73 B.C.? 

Yep.

Thinking logically: no the exact words Alma told his son most certainly were not exactly "44 For behold, it is as easy to give heed to the word of Christ..." because Alma didn't speak KJ English.  Rather, the words Alma used were translated into KJ English by the power of God, and KJ English did indeed include the word "Christ".  

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, carlimac said:

In reading Alma 37:44-45 we have Alma commanding his son Helaman ( About 73 B.C.) about following the "words of Christ".  Which words of Christ would those be?   I guess I think of "the words of Christ" as being those that he spoke while on the earth. And yet he hadn't lived on the earth yet?  Is Alma referring to anything Jehovah said in the Old Testament?  Is Jesus ever referred to as "Christ" in the Old Testament? In doing a quick cursory glance in the Topical Guide, I don't see any reference to "Christ" in the books of the Old Testament. The only place he is called "Christ" before he was actually  born is in the Book of Mormon. 

So is this one of those things explained in apologetics that in translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith often used words in English that he knew but weren't necessarily used in 73 B.C.? 

I don't understand the whole confusion you are experiencing. Why does it matter whether Jesus was referred to as "Christ" in the Old Testament? (He was, by the way.) He is referred to that way in the Book of Mormon, almost right from the beginning. How can that not become a matter of concern to you until more than halfway through the book of Alma?

[carlimac]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't understand the whole confusion you are experiencing. Why does it matter whether Jesus was referred to as "Christ" in the Old Testament? (He was, by the way.) He is referred to that way in the Book of Mormon, almost right from the beginning. How can that not become a matter of concern to you until more than halfway through the book of Alma?

I suppose because I'm an idiot? 

Edited September 20, 2018 by carlimac

[Jane_Doe]

13 minutes ago, carlimac said:

I suppose because I'm an idiot? What do you think? 

Nah, idiots don't remotely ask the high quality of questions you do.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Vort]

1 minute ago, carlimac said:

I suppose because I'm an idiot? What do you think? 

Let me be more specific. What is it about the Alma usage of "Christ" that bothers you, as opposed to the many usages before that point?

[prisonchaplain]

Isn't the big question being asked how one would follow the words of Christ (Jesus) when no words had been given by Him yet?

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Isn't the big question being asked how one would follow the words of Christ (Jesus) when no words had been given by Him yet?

Christ's words had been preached since Adam's time.  They are the same as the the Father's. 

[zil]

19 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Christ's words had been preached since Adam's time.  They are the same as the the Father's. 

Exactly.  The gospel of Jesus Christ was first taught to Adam.  All prophets from Adam on testified of Christ (Jacob 7:11).  When Alma instructs "to give heed to the word of Christ", he means the teachings of Christ, also known as the gospel of Christ, the commandments of God, truth.

Edited September 21, 2018 by zil
Also Jacob 4:4, Mosiah 13:33

[bytebear]

The Bible has translated Jehovah as LORD all over the OT.  Smith (or God) seems to prefer Christ to LORD.  I have no problem with it

[Guest]

1 hour ago, carlimac said:

In reading Alma 37:44-45 we have Alma commanding his son Helaman ( About 73 B.C.) about following the "words of Christ".  Which words of Christ would those be?   I guess I think of "the words of Christ" as being those that he spoke while on the earth. And yet he hadn't lived on the earth yet?  Is Alma referring to anything Jehovah said in the Old Testament?  Is Jesus ever referred to as "Christ" in the Old Testament? In doing a quick cursory glance in the Topical Guide, I don't see any reference to "Christ" in the books of the Old Testament. The only place he is called "Christ" before he was actually  born is in the Book of Mormon. 

So is this one of those things explained in apologetics that in translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith often used words in English that he knew but weren't necessarily used in 73 B.C.? 

Name of Christ:

Quote

3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

2Ne10:3

Words of Christ:

Quote

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

2Ne32:3

Thus, the words of Christ include that which is scripture and that which is revelation by the Power of the Holy Ghost.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Exactly.  The gospel of Jesus Christ was first taught to Adam.  All prophets from Adam on testified of Christ (Jacob 7:11).  When Alma instructs "to give heed to the word of Christ", he means the teachings of Christ, also known as the gospel of Christ, the commandments of God, truth.

Thank you, @zil. I was not clear on why the string turned into a focus on the word "Christ." If the meaning was actually Christ's message, including the commandments, then it makes more sense. Indeed, Christ often quoted from the OT--including his famous two great commandments (love God & neighbor). Yet, it's easy to see why some would initially wonder at that wording. As the kiddos like to say, "The mystery is history."

Edited September 21, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[carlimac]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Let me be more specific. What is it about the Alma usage of "Christ" that bothers you, as opposed to the many usages before that point?

It's what I was reading last night and it jumped out at me. 

[carlimac]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Isn't the big question being asked how one would follow the words of Christ (Jesus) when no words had been given by Him yet?

Yes! Thank you PC!!

 

[zil]

11 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Thank you, @zil. I was not clear on why the string turned into a focus on the word "Christ." If the meaning was actually Christ's message, including the commandments, then it makes more sense. Indeed, Christ often quoted from the OT--including his famous two great commandments (love God & neighbor). Yet, it's easy to see why some would initially wonder at that wording. As the kiddos like to say, "The mystery is history."

I interpreted the question not as wondering at the appearance of the title "Christ", but at the phrase "word of Christ".  But it appears your interpretation was correct, in which case, see previous answers.

[carlimac]

Let me word it this way: Is the name "Christ" - the actual word- found in the OT anywhere. Was Jesus referred to as Christ before he was born? Or was he known as Jehovah or the Lord or lots of other names? I know Jesus' (or Jehovah's) instructions (his words) are found in the OT because he was the God of the OT. I'm asking about the actual word "Christ."

As I was reading last night that phrase  "words of Christ" simply felt too contemporary for 73 BC.  It felt like reading the phrase "the Word of Wisdom" in the Book of Mormon.  

I also wondered if Alma was speaking prophetically. Like, "When Christ comes in the future- whenever that may be- and gives us his words, then we should follow them."

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by carlimac

[carlimac]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

I interpreted the question not as wondering at the appearance of the title "Christ", but at the phrase "word of Christ".  But it appears your interpretation was correct, in which case, see previous answers.

Both actually

[zil]

2 minutes ago, carlimac said:

Christ

Christ is the Greek version of Messiah.  Messiah does appear in the OT.

[zil]

6 minutes ago, carlimac said:

As I was reading last night that phrase  "words of Christ" simply felt too contemporary for 73 BC.  It felt like reading the phrase "the Word of Wisdom" in the Book of Mormon.  

See the scriptures @Carborendum posted - regardless of what word was used in the Nephite language (and I personally believe it actually was Christ, but it could have been some form of Jeshua Messiah, or similar) - they knew who he was, that he was/would be the Son of God, and would be called the Messiah/Christ and Jesus/Jeshua/Joshua.  Joseph Smith translated their writing into English, hence Jesus Christ.

Edited September 21, 2018 by zil

[zil]

7 minutes ago, carlimac said:

I also wondered if Alma was speaking prophetically. Like, "When Christ comes in the future- whenever that may be- and gives us his words, then we should follow them."

No.  They already had the words Alma wanted his son to follow.  They had the Plan of Salvation, the gospel, the commandments.

[zil]

References:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/word-of-the-lord?lang=eng&letter=W\

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=every+word+mouth+of+god&x=0&y=0

[guineaspirit]

2 hours ago, carlimac said:

In reading Alma 37:44-45 we have Alma commanding his son Helaman ( About 73 B.C.) about following the "words of Christ".  Which words of Christ would those be?   I guess I think of "the words of Christ" as being those that he spoke while on the earth. And yet he hadn't lived on the earth yet?  Is Alma referring to anything Jehovah said in the Old Testament?  Is Jesus ever referred to as "Christ" in the Old Testament? In doing a quick cursory glance in the Topical Guide, I don't see any reference to "Christ" in the books of the Old Testament. The only place he is called "Christ" before he was actually  born is in the Book of Mormon. 

So is this one of those things explained in apologetics that in translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith often used words in English that he knew but weren't necessarily used in 73 B.C.? 

could be talking about when they where in heaven before earth.

[prisonchaplain]

39 minutes ago, zil said:

Christ is the Greek version of Messiah.  Messiah does appear in the OT.

There are actually Jewish believers in Jesus, who call themselves Messianic. Apparently there are about 574 verses in the OT with messianic foretellings. https://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/Jesus-in-the-Old-Testament.cfm

[Vort]

1 hour ago, carlimac said:

It's what I was reading last night and it jumped out at me. 

That makes sense. Many excellent answers have been given -- for example, @Carborendum's -- so I won't add to what's already been said.

[bytebear]

I looked up the word "Christ" and the word “Christ” comes from christos, a Greek word meaning “anointed.” 

To be anointed, literally, is to have sacred oil poured on one’s head, because God has chosen the person for a special task. Priests and kings were anointed, and occasionally prophets. Kings were anointed during their coronation rather than receiving a crown.

http://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/what-does-the-word-christ-actually-mean/

So, the translation could have been "word of the anointed one" or the one designated as king.  It also ties into the LORD being used, since that is another designation of a holy ruler.  So, I feel like we are arguing over synonyms. 

Far be it from me because of the  LORD that I should do this thing to my lord, the LORD’S anointed (mashiach),  to stretch out my hand against him, since he is the LORD’S anointed (mashiach). (1 Samuel 24:6)