Ok, So Maybe Episode III Isn't THAT Bad.

[unixknight]

So I know the subject of the third Star Wars prequel isn't exactly contemporary but...

Over the weekend, I watched Episode III again with my son, who just turned 7.  We had started with the original trilogy and then went back and revisited the prequels, which he has found mostly boring.  (He likes Luke Skywalker.  Can't blame the little guy for that.)  

You know... I kinda hate to admit it but... That movie is a lot better than it gets credit for from a lot of sectors.  Yes, I've seen the Plinkett reviews and yes, I mostly agree with them... but there really are some things about Episode 3 that make it stand above the first two prequels, and it's better than Episode 7 or 8.

YEAH, I SAID IT.

Yes, I agree that the lightsaber duel at the end was way, way too long.  Yes, I agree that the balcony "love is blind" scene was utter cringe, especially coming form an actress of Natalie Portman's caliber...  But here's the good stuff, IMHO:

• Hayden Christiansen really does have the ability to act when he doesn't have any cringe lines to deliver.  Just look at Anakin's face when he's arguing with Padme on the landing platform on Mustafar.  At first he's happy but surprised to see her, then he darkens, and darkens... and you clearly get the exact moment he notices Obi-Wan standing on the top of the boarding ramp of the ship.  Christiansen does a really good imitation of an agitated animal and that can't be an accident.  Keep an eye on his face throughout the duel even... Say what you like about the kid, he really does convey emotion effectively with his face and body language.
• Speaking of Obi-Wan... Yeah, sometimes Ewan McGregor tries a little too hard to sound like Alec Guiness and it comes out awkward, but over all I liked him a lot in the role.  
• The moment the twins were born.  I still feel a little lump in my throat as Padme says their names for the first time.  It's because of what I said in the Episode 8 thread... I love the character of Luke, always have.  The scene of his birth has the same effect on me as this one: "Let's name him after your dad.  Let's... let's call him Jim.  Jim.  Ok.  Jim it is."  which was also in an otherwise weak prequel movie.
• The early moments of the lightsaber duel at the end before it started becoming exhausting to watch.

Admittedly, I may have been predisposed to like it anyway.  I remember waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy back, before Episode 5 came out.  My brother had been reading a magazine which had some info about the Star Wars universe.  He told me that in this magazine it had some of the backstory between Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader, how they had dueled a long time ago and Vader fell into acid/lava and that was why he had to wear the suit to keep him alive now.  I'd literally been waiting to see that for over two decades, and while it could have been way better, it was satisfying.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

I think Star Wars fans of my generation (very end of Generation X) put so much hype into the prequels and set the bar so high that nothing Lucas did could reach those expectations. I'm not saying the first three were as good as the holy trilogy-but they are a bit over bashed. 

Flame on. 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I remember being six years old and going to see Star Wars with my Mom in 1977. One of my favorite early memories and I have been a fan since then. My wife watches This is Us every week and the other day she was watching it while I was on the computer. There was a scene where they big guy with the beard finds out that his wife has sold his star wars action figures. He says, "These were the original figures from 1977." When I heard him say that I immediately said, "Wait one minute! There were no action figures from Star Wars in 1977, the first ones were not sent out until 1978." She just rolled her eyes and said, "Whatever." LOL

[NeuroTypical]

I grew up around people discussing what Yoda must have looked like in his prime.  How he would fight.  I suppose watching it happen with Dooku was ok.  Not really a let down.

But then, I also grew up yearning for the day when CGI would advance to a level that could do Tolkein's LOTR justice.  And Peter Jackson's movies exceeded all expectations, leaving me breathless.  We joked that we timed the birth of our first kid around the release of the Two Towers.  Star Wars? Not so much.

[Midwest LDS]

I actually agree. I remember seeing episode 3 way back in 2005 (I was home from my mission for a week due to my stepdad's passing) and I remember liking it a lot. I still wouldn't put it above 5 or 6 (epsecially for the reasons you mention @unixknight) but it's a good, solid Star Wars flick and I still watch it occasionally. I enjoyed the confrontation between Palapatine and Mace Windu and I still remember saying to myself, even though I knew what was coming, "Don't listen to him Anakin". I was definitely engaged in what was going on.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Midwest LDS

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I hope they find some way to bring Hayden Christiansen back in episode 9 to have another go at the role. He is actually a really good actor.

[unixknight]

1 minute ago, Midwest LDS said:

I actually agree. I remember seeing episode 3 way back in 2005 (I was home from my mission for a week due to my stepdad's passing) and I remember liking it a lot. I still wouldn't put it above 5 or 6 (epsecially for the reasons you mention @unixknight) but it's a good, solid Star Wars flick and I still watch it occasionally. I really enjoyed the confrontation with Palapatine and I still remember saying to myself, even though I knew it was coming, "Don't listen to him Anakin". 

Yeah... I felt like at that point the manipulation was a bit hamfisted but it still worked well.  Then,  later...

"Arise, Lord... [beat] ...Vader."

[Cue Imperial March]

Great moment.

[Just_A_Guy]

OK, I’ll say it:

I’m sure that for the 1970s, the special effects of episodes IV-VI had a newfangled gee-whiz sort of cachet.  But I see nothing really uniquely engaging in either those films’ plots or their characters.  It’s 1970s cornball, of a piece with dozens of other forgettable and forgotten contemporary films.  I see little difference in quality between any of the Star Wars franchise—they are each in their ways a pleasant-yet-forgettable way to spend a couple of hours and then get back to the business of living (with episode III having an extra helping of idiotic political overtones).

And the trouble with Hayden Christiansen’s portrayal is that to appreciate the tragedy of a good person becoming evil, you have to first be sold on the person’s initial goodness.  Christiansen’s Anakin was a thoroughly unlikeable snake from the get-go, and his “turn” to the dark side came off as more of a natural growth towards the direction his character was already facing.  

Edited January 24, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[NeuroTypical]

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

...a thoroughly unlikeable snake from the get-go...

Yeah, I know you're not talking about this kid.  But still:

 

Judges you in ChildActor

[Junior]

The prequels are banging only old people deny it. 

 

 

Any scenes like this in the originals?? I think not. 

 

Rogue one is the best only people with too much nostalgia disagree. 

 

[Fether]

39 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

the trouble with Hayden Christiansen’s portrayal is that to appreciate the tragedy of a good person becoming evil, you have to first be sold on the person’s initial goodness.  Christiansen’s Anakin was a thoroughly unlikeable snake from the get-go, and his “turn” to the dark side came off as more of a natural growth towards the direction his character was already facing.  

I agree with this completely. The Netflix Clonewars series (which takes place between II and III) do a fantastic job of getting you to fall in Love with the goodness of Anakin, but also keeps you aware if the little darkness that is inside him. But there is far more goodness seen in Anakin in the Netflix series than there is in episode II and III.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Fether

[SpiritDragon]

Wait - there are more than three Star Wars movies?! 😀

[unixknight]

15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And the trouble with Hayden Christiansen’s portrayal is that to appreciate the tragedy of a good person becoming evil, you have to first be sold on the person’s initial goodness.  Christiansen’s Anakin was a thoroughly unlikeable snake from the get-go, and his “turn” to the dark side came off as more of a natural growth towards the direction his character was already facing.  

I agree that they never made us like Anakin.  He was whiny, impatient and pretty creepy.  I kept wondering what it was that Padme saw in him.  

Then, my wife and I found a new way to watch the prequels that actually made them better.  What if... and bear with me on this... what if... Padme didn't love Anakin.  What if she was afraid of him? 

If it please the court, I'd like to introduce the following:

• When Anakin and Obi-Wan arrive at Padme's apartment at the beginning of Episode II, she greets Obi-Wan warmly, with a sincere smile.  Once she recognized Anakin she starts to smile but he goes into full-on creep mode immediately.  She doesn't seem to know what to say to him.
• "She turned the cameras off.  I don't think she liked me watching her."  This is the creepiest line ever delivered in Star Wars.
• Later, when Anakin is complaining about Obi-Wan, she looks annoyed and again, uncertain.  Anakin, however, is now dialing the creep up to 11.
• Anakin was assigned by the Jedi Council to protect her.  She didn't request him.  He does nothing but annoy her when they arrive at Naboo.  He interrupts her, argues with her, shows little respect.  At this point Padme has absolutely no reason to like this kid.
• Later on Naboo, there's an effort to show them getting closer, but Anakin keeps saying these incredibly creepy and awkward things to her.
• They travel to Tatooine, where Anakin slaughters the village of Sandpeople.  When he confesses to Padme, she looks terrified.  Anakin has just confessed to mass murder.  

Let's pause here to consider that Natalie Portman won an Academy Award for best actress at around this point in her acting career.  If Padme looks afraid, then that was on purpose.

• At no time, even when Padme and Anakin kiss later, does it seem like she's really into it.  It's as if she's going along with it out of fear.
• Blink and you'll miss it, but when Obi-Wan mounts the creature Padme and Anakin are riding in the arena, she touches his thigh.  That becomes relevant later.
• In Episode III, she tells Anakin that she's pregnant.  The expression on her face is not joy, it's fear.  Now that's understandable, given the circumstances, but I really think it goes deeper than that.
• The rest of Episode III is mostly just Padme reacting to what Anakin does.  Her reactions are almost always fear and dismay.  The notable exception is the balcony scene and... I really don't know what to say about that.  The quality of the scene overall is so bad that it almost seems like it should be tossed out.
• Ultimately, Padme's fears are justified as she is force choked by Anakin almost to death. 

Now, why did it matter that Padme touched Obi-Wan's leg?

I submit to you that Anakin Skywalker is not he father of Luke and Leia.  It was none other than Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Consider this:

• Obi-Wan is much closer to Padme's age than Anakin is.  
• As mentioned above, Padme greets Obi-Wan warmly when he and Anakin arrive, and directs most of her comments to him. 
• The way Padme looks at Obi-Wan on multiple occasions is one of warmth and love.  Remember, Natalie Portman was an Oscar grade actress.  This wasn't an accident.
• The Jedi can sense emotion. What if the reason they did not send Obi-Wan to protect Padme on Naboo is because they were onto the affair, and separated the couple for Obi-Wan's own good.  Anakin was a blind spot for them.*
• Padme touched Obi-Wan's leg when he mounts the creature behind her in the arena.
• "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil.  He betrayed and murdered your father."  That's a lie.  Unless it was foreshadowing.

*Oh, you don't think Anakin was their blind spot, do you?  Then riddle me this, Batman:  Why couldn't Yoda, arguably the most powerful Jedi on the Council, in a private, one-on-one conversation with Anakin, realize that not only was Anakin obsessed with Padme, but that he had already gone over to the Dark Side by murdering an entire village of Sandpeople in cold blood out of a desire for revenge.

The bottom line:  Agree with me or not, looking for these clues just made Episode 2 and 3 a little more interesting, didn't it?  

[NeuroTypical]

Just a quick note to all that thoughtful analysis - in every friggin Padme-Anakin-alone-getting-to-know-each-other scene, she's wearing fewer and fewer clothes.  Break it down all you want, but include that in the analysis please.

(Watching this with daughters is fun.  "Oh Annie, I'm scared!"  "Yeah, not scared enough to PUT ON SOME DANG CLOTHES!!!"   "Daddy, sit down.")

Edited January 25, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[unixknight]

28 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Just a quick note to all that thoughtful analysis - in every friggin Padme-Anakin-alone-getting-to-know-each-other scene, she's wearing fewer and fewer clothes.  Break it down all you want, but include that in the analysis please.

(Watching this with daughters is fun.  "Oh Annie, I'm scared!"  "Yeah, not scared enough to PUT ON SOME DANG CLOTHES!!!"   "Daddy, sit down.")

Oh dude... that scene where she and Anakin are sitting alone together.... in a dimly lit room... with a fireplace...  and Padme dressed in a tight leather outfit...  That scene alone is the biggest counterargument to the theory that she was afraid of him.

[Fether]

3 hours ago, unixknight said:

I agree that they never made us like Anakin.  He was whiny, impatient and pretty creepy.  I kept wondering what it was that Padme saw in him.  

Then, my wife and I found a new way to watch the prequels that actually made them better.  What if... and bear with me on this... what if... Padme didn't love Anakin.  What if she was afraid of him? 

If it please the court, I'd like to introduce the following:

• When Anakin and Obi-Wan arrive at Padme's apartment at the beginning of Episode II, she greets Obi-Wan warmly, with a sincere smile.  Once she recognized Anakin she starts to smile but he goes into full-on creep mode immediately.  She doesn't seem to know what to say to him.
• "She turned the cameras off.  I don't think she liked me watching her."  This is the creepiest line ever delivered in Star Wars.
• Later, when Anakin is complaining about Obi-Wan, she looks annoyed and again, uncertain.  Anakin, however, is now dialing the creep up to 11.
• Anakin was assigned by the Jedi Council to protect her.  She didn't request him.  He does nothing but annoy her when they arrive at Naboo.  He interrupts her, argues with her, shows little respect.  At this point Padme has absolutely no reason to like this kid.
• Later on Naboo, there's an effort to show them getting closer, but Anakin keeps saying these incredibly creepy and awkward things to her.
• They travel to Tatooine, where Anakin slaughters the village of Sandpeople.  When he confesses to Padme, she looks terrified.  Anakin has just confessed to mass murder.  

Let's pause here to consider that Natalie Portman won an Academy Award for best actress at around this point in her acting career.  If Padme looks afraid, then that was on purpose.

• At no time, even when Padme and Anakin kiss later, does it seem like she's really into it.  It's as if she's going along with it out of fear.
• Blink and you'll miss it, but when Obi-Wan mounts the creature Padme and Anakin are riding in the arena, she touches his thigh.  That becomes relevant later.
• In Episode III, she tells Anakin that she's pregnant.  The expression on her face is not joy, it's fear.  Now that's understandable, given the circumstances, but I really think it goes deeper than that.
• The rest of Episode III is mostly just Padme reacting to what Anakin does.  Her reactions are almost always fear and dismay.  The notable exception is the balcony scene and... I really don't know what to say about that.  The quality of the scene overall is so bad that it almost seems like it should be tossed out.
• Ultimately, Padme's fears are justified as she is force choked by Anakin almost to death. 

Now, why did it matter that Padme touched Obi-Wan's leg?

I submit to you that Anakin Skywalker is not he father of Luke and Leia.  It was none other than Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Consider this:

• Obi-Wan is much closer to Padme's age than Anakin is.  
• As mentioned above, Padme greets Obi-Wan warmly when he and Anakin arrive, and directs most of her comments to him. 
• The way Padme looks at Obi-Wan on multiple occasions is one of warmth and love.  Remember, Natalie Portman was an Oscar grade actress.  This wasn't an accident.
• The Jedi can sense emotion. What if the reason they did not send Obi-Wan to protect Padme on Naboo is because they were onto the affair, and separated the couple for Obi-Wan's own good.  Anakin was a blind spot for them.*
• Padme touched Obi-Wan's leg when he mounts the creature behind her in the arena.
• "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil.  He betrayed and murdered your father."  That's a lie.  Unless it was foreshadowing.

*Oh, you don't think Anakin was their blind spot, do you?  Then riddle me this, Batman:  Why couldn't Yoda, arguably the most powerful Jedi on the Council, in a private, one-on-one conversation with Anakin, realize that not only was Anakin obsessed with Padme, but that he had already gone over to the Dark Side by murdering an entire village of Sandpeople in cold blood out of a desire for revenge.

The bottom line:  Agree with me or not, looking for these clues just made Episode 2 and 3 a little more interesting, didn't it?  

More likely... Anakin used mind trick to get Padme to love him