The Word (Logos)

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Words have power, especially names. At least two times in the Bible angels refuse to give their names. Mosiah talks about God knowing us by our names. In D&c 130 it says, 

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

I think this is why Christ is sometimes called the Word.

In the Bible often names were more than personal tags - they were also titles.  In ancient Near Eastern Kingdoms (such as Egypt) names were changed for officials to show rank within the kingdom.  And the name by which someone would identify themselves when addressing the supreme Suzerain would also indicate the rank of the person addressing the Suzerain.  Some believe this is why the name of Abram and others was changed and why when making a covenant sometimes the person was given a different name.

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

39 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It would seem that there is a little more to creation than just G-d saying something and it was done.  For example look at the end of verse 12

As an engineer that designs many systems I have come to appreciate the art design, test and upgrade if necessary; creations I create and oversee to insure that they perform correctly according to all specifications and therefor are "good".  What we may be observing in scripture is the Father explaining to those working under him what he wants done - and then checking back later to make sure it was done "right".

The Traveler

I don't doubt it given what we learn from the temple, though I believe there may also be  some commanding and the elements obeying. According Robert B. Hales, in his Oct 1995 GC talk on "Blessings of the Priesthood,"  he said: 

Quote

The formation of the universe and of the world upon which we live was brought to pass—not by chance, but through the power of the priesthood. The great Creator spoke, and the elements obeyed. The processes of nature that enable us to exist on this planet, the resources of this world that sustain life—all were set into motion and continue their course through the power of God’s magnificent priesthood. While most of the earth’s inhabitants do not recognize this priesthood power, all living creatures are its beneficiaries. (bold mine)

Here is a list of 7 biblical passages that support this claim. See also, "Heavenly Father and Jehovah Created the World."

Thanks,  [Wade Englund-

 

[zil]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

I don't doubt it given what we learn from the temple, though I believe there may also be  some commanding and the elements obeying. According Robert B. Hales, in his Oct 1995 GC talk on "Blessings of the Priesthood,"  he said: 

Here is a list of 7 biblical passages that support this claim. See also, "Heavenly Father and Jehovah Created the World."

Thanks,  [Wade Englund-

Not exactly about the power of speaking, but I always thought this was revealing (and in the same vein):

Quote

D&C 121:45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, zil said:

Not exactly about the power of speaking, but I always thought this was revealing (and in the same vein):

Profound!

Not only is it in the same vein, but in terms of actualizing, it is the prerequisite of what I was quoting.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[askandanswer]

On 1/25/2019 at 6:45 AM, wenglund said:

I am interested in learning what you all believe is meant by "the Word," particularly as it relates to the first 5 verses of John 1

According to John Travolta, the word is grease. And he may be right. Those who have worked as mechanics, plumbers and engineers will know that with the correct use of grease, you can accomplish all sorts of things that you could not accomplish without it.  

[Maureen]

11 hours ago, askandanswer said:

According to John Travolta, the word is grease....

Actually it was Frankie Valli (or maybe it was Barry Gibb). 😊

M.

[wenglund]

On 1/25/2019 at 6:02 PM, zil said:

Not exactly about the power of speaking, but I always thought this was revealing (and in the same vein):

I just realized in reading the related portions of Jesus the Christ, (Chap. 9, Endnote 3) that there is another D&C section (see  D&C 93) that expounds upon what we have talked about in this thread as well as John 1, particularly verses 1-5,.

Furthermore, the Come Follow Me lesson manual for this last week asked the question, "How do we become the sons of God?"  I believe that D&C 93:12-14 implicitly answers that question. .

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 28, 2019 by wenglund

[Vort]

In the beginning was the plan. And the plan was approved of God. And the plan was Jesus Christ.

[zil]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I believe that D&C 88:12-14 implicitly answers that question.

FYI, that link takes us to section 93.

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, zil said:

FYI, that link takes us to section 93.

Because of my bad eyesight, I was seeing 88, when it was actually 93. Thanks for the correction. I have edited my post accordingly.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 28, 2019 by wenglund

[wenglund]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

In the beginning was the plan. And the plan was approved of God. And the plan was Jesus Christ.

It doesn't get any simpler, and yet comprehensively true, than that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

Here's a thought about words.

NOTE: I say the following, not because I believe in mysticism or fantasy novels.  I say it only because that was what I was thinking about as I went to read the scriptures.

In some fantasy settings, speaking a particular language automatically has some mystical power.  And to do so with knowledge and understanding causes certain magicks to happen.  I had just read something in a fluff book along these lines as I went to read the BoM.

Quote

And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

  --  Ether 12:24

This was what I read that sparked my thought process.  You can probably guess where I'm going with this.  I believe Nephi said something similar.

Quote

And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.

 -- 2 Ne 33:1

Why did both of these men have the power to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, yet both bemoaned the fact that they could not write by the Power of the Holy Ghost?

Jared spoke & wrote in Adamic.  Did that make a difference?  Since I'm getting to be an old man, I can say there was some difference I noticed from long ago.  For obvious reasons, I won't go into any more detail than that.  Yet is was different.  Hardly definitive, I know.  One example is not quite proof.  But it does get me thinking.

When God speaks does that simply cause things to happen in such a manner that our mortal perception would simply call it "magic" or "miraculous"?  Or is there something else there?

John (as is currently written) says Jesus was "the word".  So does Moses.

Quote

 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

 --  Moses 1:32

This language is... thought provoking.  God spoke "make it so".  And Jesus made it so.

I'm not sure where this is eventually going.  But it is thought provoking.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Guest

[Rob Osborn]

45 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Here's a thought about words.

NOTE: I say the following, not because I believe in mysticism or fantasy novels.  I say it only because that was what I was thinking about as I went to read the scriptures.

In some fantasy settings, speaking a particular language automatically has some mystical power.  And to do so with knowledge and understanding causes certain magicks to happen.  I had just read something in a fluff book along these lines as I went to read the BoM.

This was what I read that sparked my thought process.  You can probably guess where I'm going with this.  I believe Nephi said something similar.

Why did both of these men have the power to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, yet both bemoaned the fact that they could not write by the Power of the Holy Ghost?

Jared spoke & wrote in Adamic.  Did that make a difference?  Since I'm getting to be an old man, I can say there was some difference I noticed from long ago.  For obvious reasons, I won't go into any more detail than that.  Yet is was different.  Hardly definitive, I know.  One example is not quite proof.  But it does get me thinking.

When God speaks does that simply cause things to happen in such a manner that our mortal perception would simply call it "magic" or "miraculous"?  Or is there something else there?

John (as is currently written) says Jesus was "the word".  So does Moses.

This language is... thought provoking.  God spoke "make it so".  And Jesus made it so.

I'm not sure where this is eventually going.  But it is thought provoking.

Of interest, I was caught between waking up and not fully awake and I was commanding Satan to leave my house and my whole body was shaking and out of my mouth was this river of light sequences and for a brief second I saw that there was real mathematical power in the sequences.

[wenglund]

According to various verses in D&C 132,  "the word" is the law of the Lord God--i.e. the covenant.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

When God speaks does that simply cause things to happen in such a manner that our mortal perception would simply call it "magic" or "miraculous"?  Or is there something else there?

John (as is currently written) says Jesus was "the word".  So does Moses. "And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth."

 --  Moses 1:32

Jacob 4:9 underscores this by stating:  "For behold, by the power of his ^aword ^bman came upon the face of the earth, which earth was ^ccreated by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the ^dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?"

Mormon adds: "Who shall say that it was not a miracle that by his ^a word the heaven and the earth should be; and by the power of his word man was ^bcreated of the ^cdust of the earth; and by the power of his word have miracles been wrought?" (Morm 9:17)

Christ taught that the word of God gives life (Mt 4:4; D&C 84:44-45))

Not only is the word a means of creation and life and light, but also one of destruction, either for good (3 Ne 28:20) or for ill (Mt 15:8,11,17-18; Jm. 3:5-6,9, 1:26).

I don't know about "magic," but the words that Christ spoke as a 12-year-old child, caused wonder and astonished the learned men at the temple. (Lk 4:32,36)

Certainly, when Moses spoke the words and smote the rock,and water came forth,  that was miraculous. (1Ne 17:29, Lk 4:22))

This, of course, is a metaphor for Christ as the living water that quenches the thirst of those who hear and abide by his words.

Now, whether by God's voice, or the voice of his chosen servants, particularly when supplemented by the Holy Spirit,  it can have a trans formative power. Christ tells us in D&C 11:21:  "Seek not to ^adeclare my word, but first seek to ^bobtain my ^cword, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my ^dSpirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the ^econvincing of men."

And, this convincing power leads to repentence, and baptism (Alma 62:45)

Taking this one step further, D&C 68:4 tells us: "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the ^aHoly Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the ^bpower of God unto salvation."

Does it get any more "magical" or miraculous than that?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

 

 

[Anddenex]

@wenglund - Thank you for starting this thread. I am not sure personally the intricate details of the phrase "the word" and why it was used in John 1. This is why I have refrained from participating in this thread; however, in light of two reasons: 1) President Nelson's challenge of the Book of Mormon read and 2) This thread. I read Alma 32: 28-end of chapter very differently than I had before. It was a good read.

"The word" mentioned in this chapter and verses allowed me to ponder a whole new concept that I hadn't entertained, nor did I correlate till now.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

@wenglund - Thank you for starting this thread. I am not sure personally the intricate details of the phrase "the word" and why it was used in John 1. This is why I have refrained from participating in this thread; however, in light of two reasons: 1) President Nelson's challenge of the Book of Mormon read and 2) This thread. I read Alma 32: 28-end of chapter very differently than I had before. It was a good read.

"The word" mentioned in this chapter and verses allowed me to ponder a whole new concept that I hadn't entertained, nor did I correlate till now.

Following your indirect prompting, I just read that chapter as well, and had a similar experience. I particularly enjoyed being reminded of who all "imparteth the word" in  verse 23. So, much appreciation.

Coincidentally, in response to Pres. Nelson's suggestion, I am currently reading    3 Ne 27.  In light of the fact that the JST of Jn 1:1-5  renders "the word" as "the gospel,"  this morning as I read through 3 Ne 27, I was impressed by the phrase, "ye are built upon my gospel" (see verses 8-10).  My mind drew a parallel between being built and created or made, which in turn called to mind  verse 3 of Jn 1,  which intimated  that all things were made by the Word.  So, my reading of the Book of Mormon correlated wonderfully with my home study of Come Follow Me.

And, blessedly, your mention of Alma 32 helped me to see how that building and new creation takes place. Profound!

I also found Christ's explanation of what is the gospel  (see 3Ne 27: 13-22) to be all the more illuminating, if not also the marvelous things that come to those built/created by the Word expounded upon in the verses that followed.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

Maybe if I could actually speak, instead of type with one finger, many more would be convinced of my words concerning heaven and hell. 😊

[Jersey Boy]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Maybe if I could actually speak, instead of type with one finger, many more would be convinced of my words concerning heaven and hell. 😊

You have a real uphill battle on your hands trying to convince faithful members of the Church who believe in following the living prophets, not individuals claiming private revelations that contradict the currently accepted Church teachings. When a rank and file member of the Church asserts he’s more enlightened on the details of plan of salvation than even the prophet Joseph Smith, warning flags will understandably go up, especially in light of the fact that the scriptures pointedly warn us that those who genuinely do come to know the deeper mysteries of the kingdom have only been able to gain such knowledge because they have learned to keep such knowledge to themselves. Therefore, the fact that you’re obsessively attempting to convince members to believe in teachings that are not sanctioned by the Church quite understandably places you in a negative light. Have you considered squaring your understanding of the plan of salvation with the following from the prophet Joseph Smith?

“My text is on the resurrection of the dead, which you will find in the 14th chapter of John—‘In my Father’s house are many mansions.’ [John 14:2.] It should be—‘In my Father’s kingdom are many kingdoms,’ in order that ye may be heirs of God and joint-heirs with me. … There are mansions for those who obey a celestial law, and there are other mansions for those who come short of the law, every man in his own order.”³

“‘But,’ says one (the prophets is speaking here of someone who think like YOU!), ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“Go and read the vision in [Doctrine and Covenants 76]. There is clearly illustrated glory upon glory—one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and a glory of the stars; and as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so do they of the telestial world differ in glory, and every man who reigns in celestial glory is a God to his dominions. …

“Paul says, ‘There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So is also the resurrection of the dead.’ [1 Corinthians 15:41–42.]” (History of the Church)

Can you not see you’re fighting a losing battle?

 

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

You have a real uphill battle on your hands trying to convince faithful members of the Church who believe in following the living prophets, not individuals claiming private revelations that contradict the currently accepted Church teachings. When a rank and file member of the Church asserts he’s more enlightened on the details of plan of salvation than even the prophet Joseph Smith, warning flags will understandably go up, especially in light of the fact that the scriptures pointedly warn us that those who genuinely do come to know the deeper mysteries of the kingdom have only been able to gain such knowledge because they have learned to keep such knowledge to themselves. Therefore, the fact that you’re obsessively attempting to convince members to believe in teachings that are not sanctioned by the Church quite understandably places you in a negative light. Have you considered squaring your understanding of the plan of salvation with the following from the prophet Joseph Smith?

“My text is on the resurrection of the dead, which you will find in the 14th chapter of John—‘In my Father’s house are many mansions.’ [John 14:2.] It should be—‘In my Father’s kingdom are many kingdoms,’ in order that ye may be heirs of God and joint-heirs with me. … There are mansions for those who obey a celestial law, and there are other mansions for those who come short of the law, every man in his own order.”³

“‘But,’ says one (the prophets is speaking here of someone who think like YOU!), ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“Go and read the vision in [Doctrine and Covenants 76]. There is clearly illustrated glory upon glory—one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and a glory of the stars; and as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so do they of the telestial world differ in glory, and every man who reigns in celestial glory is a God to his dominions. …

“Paul says, ‘There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So is also the resurrection of the dead.’ [1 Corinthians 15:41–42.]” (History of the Church)

Can you not see you’re fighting a losing battle?

 

 

I never claimed any revelations that goes against whats been revealed. Im just connecting dots on what already has been revealed. Anyways, I do find it interesting that when I can speak with people with my voice its very convincing. My whole family was skeptical, they aren't so much anymore. They too see the logic of what I say.There is power in our voices versus typing on forums!

Edited January 30, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[Jersey Boy]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I never claimed any revelations that goes against whats been revealed. Im just connecting dots on what already has been revealed. Anyways, I do find it interesting that when I can speak with people with my voice its very convincing. My whole family was skeptical, they aren't so much anymore. They too see the logic of what I say.There is power in our voices versus typing on forums!

Well congratulations! Just like the early leaders of the Catholic Church who thought they were justified when they supplanted divine revelation with their own human reason, you choose to utterly ignore what the prophet Joseph Smith has to say about your pet ideas, and, by your own admission, rely on your own human wisdom. 

Since we’ve beaten the subject of the three degrees of glory to death, and there really doesn’t seem to be anything worthwhile left to say, you’ve got me wondering what other Church doctrines there are with which you may disagree?. So if there are other Church teachings you disagree with, why don’t you start a new thread and we’ll discuss something new?

Edited January 31, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

Well congratulations! Just like the early leaders of the Catholic Church who thought they were justified when they supplanted divine revelation with their own human reason, you choose to utterly ignore what the prophet Joseph Smith has to say about your pet ideas, and, by your own admission, rely on your own human wisdom. 

Since we’ve beaten the subject of the three degrees of glory to death, and there really doesn’t seem to be anything worthwhile left to say, you’ve got me wondering what other Church doctrines there are with which you may disagree?. So if there are other Church teachings you disagree with, why don’t you start a new thread and we’ll discuss something new?

You totally missed my initial point. I don't feel like debating anything with you right now. Attitudes not right.

[wenglund]

21 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Maybe if I could actually speak, instead of type with one finger, many more would be convinced of my words concerning heaven and hell. 😊

The scriptures are written and they are no less convincing than when they were spoken. In fact, as I read them, they "speak as if from the dust."

When I read the printed version of conference talks, they are no less convincing than when I listen to them as they are spoken. Indeed, sometimes they are more convincing because I can retain them better.

So, why are YOUR words lacking in power?

Truth is, I and others am already convinced of the binary heaven and hell. It is just that I/we have received further light and knowledge that provides a nuanced understanding of that binary heaven and hell, which I/we have become convinced of by way of the written word of scripture and the spoke word, including through the whispering of the Spirit.

YOUR words are unconvincing because the defy the further light and knowledge received from authoritative sources. YOU are trying to convince us to take a step back down the ladder of gospel understanding.  YOU wish for us to become as damned in our progression of knowledge on this point as you are.

No thanks!  -Wade Englund- 

P.S. I say this not by way of opening an inevitable counterproductive exchange with YOU, but rather as a way of closing it off from my end.

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

P.S. I say this not by way of opening an inevitable counterproductive exchange with YOU, but rather as a way of closing it off from my end.

Well then continue to be close minded. Good day 

(BTW, you missed the point)

[wenglund]

For whatever reason, I suspect this passage in Mt 13:19 has some relevance to recent comments:

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and^aunderstandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and^bcatcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-