Rewards and Punishments.

[zil]

In computer programming, there's a concept called "coupling" which describes the relationship between separate components or modules of an application.  Coupling can be "tight" - meaning that the separate modules are coded such that they depend on each other and if one changes, all those which reference it must also be changed; or coupling can be "loose" - meaning that they're designed such that they can be changed independently and still function together.

I believe that among mortals, the coupling between behavior and consequence (reward/punishment) is tight - and that this is a good thing, because we're so flawed.  Go to work and do your job?  Get paid.  Tight coupling.  Fail to go to work and do your job?  Get fired.  Tight coupling.  Our laws generally tightly couple the crime to the punishment - even if we think them unfair, they are still generally tightly coupled.

I believe that to our flawed mortal minds, God's rewards and punishments are both misunderstood¹ and appear to be loosely coupled.  I think this is due to lack of understanding on our part, and I believe the rewards and punishments are probably tightly coupled from God's perspective.  I also believe God's rewards and punishments are often less immediate than we mortals like.  Nonetheless, when we look for them, we can see God's abundant blessings in our lives, and I have personally experienced their ebb and flow in consequence of my own behavior.  (Thus, I think the "consequence" vs "reward/punishment" debate is only in semantics or perspective, and both perspectives can be useful in seeking understanding.)

¹Meaning there are things we perceive as rewards or punishments which are either not rewards or punishments, or are the opposite of what we think - we perceive a punishment as a reward and vice versa.

One may choose to call God's rewards and punishments "consequences" (and I believe they either always are or often are - I'm not certain which), but I don't believe that negates them coming from God - even if only because He's the one who defined the law and its consequence.

Finally, I see many instances of reward and punishment in scripture, and many promises of reward and punishment: obey the Word of Wisdom and you will receive health and strength (obvious consequence) and revelation and other spiritual blessings (not quite so obvious a consequence); obey and prosper (the promise liberally repeated throughout scripture, but especially in the Old Testament and Book of Mormon); ripen in iniquity and be destroyed (ditto) - that these last two appear to be group-oriented rather than individual-oriented doesn't alter the reward/punishment nature of them.

Edited February 4, 2019 by zil

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

That dog looks like a plotter! How to get dinner off the table in 5 steps.

Pfff.  5 steps my eye!  I once left steaks marinating on the counter - pushed to the middle, a counter she could barely get her front paws up onto - and went into the other room for a few minutes.  When I returned, no more steaks!  The little demon!

I suppose her brother could have helped her (he was tall enough to put his paws on my shoulders), but he was the most obedient dog on the planet - lived to please his humans, no leash needed - he was celestial material from day one.

[Sunday21]

Little doggy with heathy appetite! That sweet dog looks like she has human intelligence. I bet she could figure out how to order pizza! 

[CV75]

15 hours ago, wenglund said:

For me, this is answered in D&C 130:20-21: 

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

As I see it, the notion of cause and effect in general, and in particular the precept that behaviors have consequences, permeates the operational structure of existence. Indeed, it is a critical element of he  Plan of Progression. As such, if a parent (be it the Father or mortal custodians) desires that their children function effectively within existence, or in other words if they wish for their children to continue to progress, it behooves them to teach their children about cause and effect and behaviors having consequences 

One of the best practices for instructing in this regard is a system of rewards and punishment. Examples of this from the ultimate Teacher are replete throughout the scriptures.

Having said this, experience suggests that at the upper end of character development, progress will diminish where rewards and punishment are the key motivators. What is needed to progress further is a sense of duty and responsibility and obedience irrespective of reward and punishment. And, to progress even further one needs to become charitable (i.e. like Christ), at times at the very expense of reward, or in other words by way of the law of sacrifice.

So, while the Father uses rewards and punishment to assist His children to progress to a point,  He offers other means of progression once they become a "man" or "woman."

Tnanks, -Wade Englund-

This is describes part of what I think the difference is between the called and the chosen. The called are instructed (in various ways, including the principles of reward and punishment), and when they follow (for example) the counsel D&C 121 by exercising their agency in word, deed, intent and desire, they become chosen. In the last day of judgement, "reward and punishment" is not an instructional tool but the fulfillment of the law in D&C 130:20-21 as administered by a loving God.

[Traveler]

@zil brought up the concept of coupling.  In essence this is cause which always follows effect.  I sometimes wonder if @Rob Osborn assumes this cause leads to effect relationship with the principles included in the law of eternal progression.  I almost agree with cause and effect thinking.  It is just that with so many things in my personal mortal experience - I wonder if there is more to what so often appears to be the simple cause answer.

And so I wonder: Why do some fail and others succeed?  Why do some not just succeed but have excelents that makes their success greater than that of others?  Likewise why do some fail much worse than others?  What are the elements of success and the certain steps of success?  Obvious we can count our successes as blessings and our failures as punishments.   What then are the causes of success verses the "opposition" causes that bring failure?  In scripture we are told there are always opposites - in essence that for every blessing there is its opposite failure.

So I will give a hint to my kind of thinking.  What is the first step to success which has an opposite step that leads to failure?

 

The Traveler

[zil]

10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Obvious we can count our successes as blessings and our failures as punishments.

I could not disagree with this more.  This is what I was saying in my footnote.  Sure, success looks to a mortal like a reward, and failure looks to a human like a punishment, but I am not convinced, on an individual level, that this is true - on a societal level, yes (Nephite promise), but not on an individual level.

Consider this:

Quote

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Most people would not rejoice and be exceeding glad when they are reviled, persecuted, and falsely spoken evil against.  Just think of the nightmare a powerful person could cause in the life of a humble soul simply by false accusation - the humble soul could lose their employment and savings, their home, could be sent to prison (or an arena full of hungry lions) - all because a powerful-enough person wanted it badly enough.  Most going through such experiences might wonder what they had done to deserve such punishment, or why God hated them.  Yet God says they should rejoice and be exceeding glad.

Edited February 4, 2019 by zil

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Did you name it "Spot"?

I had a dog named "cat" (in Russian - Koshka, long O, stress on the first syllable). Lab-border collie-something whippet-like mix.  She was way too smart.  Here's what she looked like when we brought her home:

(This thread needed an animal photo.)

HIS name is Jasmine.  

[zil]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

HIS name is Jasmine.  

Poor kitty.

And this just reminded me that I had a dream last night that included two cats that used to live with my parents, but their names were the names of two other cats that later lived with my parents.  (In appearance, they were Toni and Junior (from my teenage years), but in name, they were Missy and Nogi (from my college+ years).)  How strange.

[Rob Osborn]

25 minutes ago, zil said:

I could not disagree with this more.  This is what I was saying in my footnote.  Sure, success looks to a mortal like a reward, and failure looks to a human like a punishment, but I am not convinced, on an individual level, that this is true - on a societal level, yes (Nephite promise), but not on an individual level.

Consider this:

Most people would not rejoice and be exceeding glad when they are reviled, persecuted, and falsely spoken evil against.  Just think of the nightmare a powerful person could cause in the life of a humble soul simply by false accusation - the humble soul could lose their employment and savings, their home, could be sent to prison (or an arena full of hungry lions) - all because a powerful-enough person wanted it badly enough.  Most going through such experiences might wonder what they had done to deserve such punishment, or why God hated them.  Yet God says they should rejoice and be exceeding glad.

They should rejoice because of life eternal and peace. Is that not a reward?

[Traveler]

@zil  Perhaps if I connected (coupled) rewards and blessings with "liberty" and "freedom" and coupled punishments and damnation (maledictions) with "bondage" and "slavery".

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

There is always a reward for an action. But, it depends on the person in how and what they view as the reward that either blesses them or leads to their condemnation. We should seek after the good reward for actions.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

  I sometimes wonder if @Rob Osborn assumes this cause leads to effect relationship with the principles included in the law of eternal progression.

My belief is that there is no law God has instituted that, through obedience to, leads anywhere but back to him. As such, every law, ordinance and covenant we make not only has the power to save us but also has the power to lead us back to his very presence. Each law, line upon line, is tied in to the next and obedience to one leads to the next until eventually we become perfect just as our Father and Jesus Christ are perfect. That's why I can't find sound reasoning in someone who is saved but not saved into the kingdom of heaven. It defies the entire work and reward system 

[wenglund]

To me, it is mistaken to assume that the realization of rewards and punishments necessarily means that these consequences were the primary motivator, or a motivator at all, behind the actions  resulting in the rewards or punishments.

For example, members who have progressed far enough in their character development may be motivated, either by their obedient and/or charitable nature, to pay their tithes and offering regardless whether they are rewarded or not. The fact that their incomes may increase or they receive an unexpected check in the mail as a result of paying tithing, is, for them, beside the point.

A scriptural example of this is Moses 5:4-12, particularly verse 6:

"6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I known not, save the Lord commanded me."

Adam was motivated by nothing other than obedience even though he was blessed thereby with the Holy Ghost (see verse 9)

Another example is Christ's baptism. He didn't do it to receive the reward of a cleansed soul, because he was already clean. Rather, he did it out of obedience and to fulfill all righteousness. (see Mt 3:43--JST and   2Ne 31:5-7)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 4, 2019 by wenglund

[Traveler]

18 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

My belief is that there is no law God has instituted that, through obedience to, leads anywhere but back to him. As such, every law, ordinance and covenant we make not only has the power to save us but also has the power to lead us back to his very presence. Each law, line upon line, is tied in to the next and obedience to one leads to the next until eventually we become perfect just as our Father and Jesus Christ are perfect. That's why I can't find sound reasoning in someone who is saved but not saved into the kingdom of heaven. It defies the entire work and reward system 

Jesus made a very interesting statement - in my mind.  "If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

What we can learn for this statement could fill books.  I have highlighted a few concepts.  But let's start the concept of being free.   I am thinking that whatever your concept is about "returning" back to our Father - Jesus couples the idea to being free.  What does Jesus mean by being free?  As I have thought about this - I am convinced that G-d (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost) are the only candidates I know for sure are indeed free.

It seems to me that freedom (if and when it exists) is internal.  No one can MAKE someone else free (think Agency) - but someone can help someone towards freedom.  Bondage is indeed the opposite of freedom.  It means that someone else has control to which the one in bondage must obey and be controlled.   In part I believe @Rob Osborn is correct in thinking that we will either have Satan or G-d as our father and the supreme Suzerain of the kingdom in which we reside for eternity.   The problem is that in our modern society all citizens are considered equal.  The reality is that not all citizens are equal and never have been and cannot made to be equal.  We are only equal under the law.  We are explicitly told in scripture that there are in essences three "kinds" of laws in the Kingdom of G-d according to the ability of someone to "obey" the law.

In short, G-d does not force any law upon us.  But whatever law we are willing and able to abide - we will come closer or be free.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

12 minutes ago, wenglund said:

To me, it is mistaken to assume that the realization of rewards and punishments necessarily means that these consequences were the primary motivator, or a motivator at all, behind the actions  resulting in the rewards or punishments.

For example, members who have progressed far enough in their character development may be motivated, either by their obedient and/or charitable nature, to pay their tithes and offering regardless whether they are rewarded or not. The fact that their incomes may increase or they receive an unexpected check in the mail as a result of paying tithing, is, for them, beside the point.

A scriptural example of this is Moses 5:4-12, particularly verse 6:

"6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I known not, save the Lord commanded me."

Adam was motivated by nothing other than obedience even though he was blessed thereby with the Holy Ghost (see verse 9)

Another example is Christ's baptism. He didn't do it to receive the reward of a cleansed soul, because he was already clean. Rather, he did it out of obedience and to fulfill all righteousness. (see Mt 3:43--JST and   2Ne 31:5-7)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I sort of agree - our attitude in keeping a commandment or law will actually determine our reward.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

@zil  Perhaps if I connected (coupled) rewards and blessings with "liberty" and "freedom" and coupled punishments and damnation (maledictions) with "bondage" and "slavery".

The Traveler

Certainly, I'd say those fit together.  I just don't think that "success" (depending, I suppose, on what exactly you mean by success) necessarily is a reward from God, nor that failure (again, depending) is necessarily a punishment from God.  And I think failure can be a gift / reward from God.

Meanwhile, I have long thought that these verses in Alma:

Quote

Alma 41:13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

14 Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.

...teach us that the act itself is the reward:

if ye do all these things	then shall ye receive your reward
see that you are merciful unto your brethren	ye shall have mercy restored unto you
deal justly	ye shall have justice restored unto you
judge righteously	ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you
do good continually	ye shall have good rewarded unto you again

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Jesus made a very interesting statement - in my mind.  "If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

What we can learn for this statement could fill books.  I have highlighted a few concepts.  But let's start the concept of being free.   I am thinking that whatever your concept is about "returning" back to our Father - Jesus couples the idea to being free.  What does Jesus mean by being free?  As I have thought about this - I am convinced that G-d (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost) are the only candidates I know for sure are indeed free.

It seems to me that freedom (if and when it exists) is internal.  No one can MAKE someone else free (think Agency) - but someone can help someone towards freedom.  Bondage is indeed the opposite of freedom.  It means that someone else has control to which the one in bondage must obey and be controlled.   In part I believe @Rob Osborn is correct in thinking that we will either have Satan or G-d as our father and the supreme Suzerain of the kingdom in which we reside for eternity.   The problem is that in our modern society all citizens are considered equal.  The reality is that not all citizens are equal and never have been and cannot made to be equal.  We are only equal under the law.  We are explicitly told in scripture that there are in essences three "kinds" of laws in the Kingdom of G-d according to the ability of someone to "obey" the law.

In short, G-d does not force any law upon us.  But whatever law we are willing and able to abide - we will come closer or be free.

 

The Traveler

I think your progression of thinking is getting more clear. Im curious what you think the "three" kinds of laws are? You see, in my understanding theres just one set of laws but within that set there are degrees or steps of the law.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

To me, it is mistaken to assume that the realization of rewards and punishments necessarily means that these consequences were the primary motivator, or a motivator at all, behind the actions  resulting in the rewards or punishments.

 

 

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I sort of agree - our attitude in keeping a commandment or law will actually determine our reward.

 

The Traveler

Elder oaks takes my assertion one or two steps further in his first General Conference address as an Apostle (see in particular about half way through the talk, the paragraph starting with, "People serve one another for different reasons."): Why Do We Serve?:

He distinguishes between those who are motivated by earthly rewards as contrasted with heavenly rewards, the former being bad and the latter good, and goes on to suggest that the latter is inferior to other reasons for serving.

Profound stuff!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

29 minutes ago, wenglund said:

To me, it is mistaken to assume that the realization of rewards and punishments necessarily means that these consequences were the primary motivator, or a motivator at all, behind the actions  resulting in the rewards or punishments.

For example, members who have progressed far enough in their character development may be motivated, either by their obedient and/or charitable nature, to pay their tithes and offering irregardless whether they are rewarded or not. The fact that their incomes may increase or they receive an unexpected check in the mail as a result of paying tithing, is, for them, beside the point.

A scriptural example of this is Moses 5:4-12, particularly verse 6:

"6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know nnot, save the Lord commanded me."

Adam was motivated by nothing other than obedience even though he was blessed thereby with the Holy Ghost (see verse 9)

Another example is Christ's baptism. He didn't do it to receive the reward of of a cleansed soul, because he was already clean. Rather, he did it out of obedience and to fulfill all righteousness. (see Mt 3:43--JST and   2Ne 31:5-7)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think we think of the word "reward" kind of in the wrong sense sometimes. One definition of reward is- "The fruit of men's labor or works." For instance, if I plant an apple tree and nourish it and take care of it for several years what is my reward or "fruits of my labor" that I have in mind from the start? That it will bear delicious fruit. If one properly looks at it with the end goal in mind- the fruits of ones labor, that itself is the reward. Why did Christ do all that he did? Not only to obey, as that is a reward in and of itself, but to glorify God in bringing to pass His goal of the salvation of mankind. Is that joy not a reward?

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, wenglund said:

 

Elder oaks takes my assertion one or two steps further in his first General Conference address as an Apostle (see in particular about half way through the talk, the paragraph starting with, "People serve one another for different reasons."): Why Do We Serve?:

He distinguishes between those who are motivated by earthly rewards as contrasted with heavenly rewards, the former being bad and the latter good, and goes on to suggest that the latter is is inferior to other reasons for serving.

Profound stuff!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

I think this is important because just as there are many meanings for "salvation" there are many meanings for "reward." https://www.lds.org/topics/salvation?lang=eng I think "salvation" and "reward" match up.

There are degrees of law and reward, and not everyone chooses to progress along the way, or all the way to exaltation. Some choose, one way or another, to stand still at one level of progression or another ("They have their reward.").

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think this is important because just as there are many meanings for "salvation" there are many meanings for "reward." https://www.lds.org/topics/salvation?lang=eng I think "salvation" and "reward" match up.

There are degrees of law and reward, and not everyone chooses to progress along the way, or all the way to exaltation. Some choose, one way or another, to stand still at one level of progression or another ("They have their reward.").

Hum...In my opinion I dont think thats possible.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think we think of the word "reward" kind of in the wrong sense sometimes. One definition of reward is- "The fruit of men's labor or works." For instance, if I plant an apple tree and nourish it and take care of it for several years what is my reward or "fruits of my labor" that I have in mind from the start? That it will bear delicious fruit. If one properly looks at it with the end goal in mind- the fruits of ones labor, that itself is the reward. Why did Christ do all that he did? Not only to obey, as that is a reward in and of itself, but to glorify God in bringing to pass His goal of the salvation of mankind. Is that joy not a reward?

Yes, it is a reward. However, as previously explained, the issue isn't whether something is a reward or not, but rather whether the reward is the primary motivator or even a motivator at all. Christ is obedient not so as to receive joy, but regardless of the joy. He is obedient not because achieving the goal of salvation of mankind is a reward,  but irrespective of it being a reward. Christ is obedient because he has an obedient and loving character . Christ does what he does because that is who and what he is--he is God, he IS love, even as his Father.

As members progresses in character, and become more like Christ, at some point they stop being motivated by reward and punishment (earthly or otherwise), and start doing things out of obedience or ultimately because it is a part of their obedient and charitable character. For these elevated members, they pay tithes and offerings,not to avoid burning at the last days or to have the windows of heaven opened and an outpouring of blessings,  or even to achieve exaltation,  but because to not pay their tithes and offerings would violate their charitable nature..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 4, 2019 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Yes, it is a reward. However, as previously explained, the issue isn't whether something is a reward or not, but rather whether the reward is the primary motivator or even a motivator at all. Christ is obedient not to receive joy, but regardless of the joy. He is obedient not because achieving the goal of salvation of mankind is a reward,  but irrespective of it being a reward. Christ is obedient because he has an obedient and loving character . Christ does what he does because that is who and what he is--he is God, he IS love, even as his Father.

As members progresses in character, and becomesmore like Christ, at some point they stop being motivated by reward and punishment (earthly or otherwise), and start doing things out of obedience or ultimately because it is a part of their obedient and charitable character. For these elevated members, they pay tithes and offerings,not to avoid burning at the last days or to have the windows of heaven opened and an outpouring of blessings,  but because to not pay their tithes and offerings would violate their charitable nature..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I dont think its possible to not keep the end goal in mind and that in and of itself is the primary motivating factor.

[askandanswer]

8 hours ago, Grunt said:

My cat thinks he's a dog.  

Is s/he right?

[wenglund]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont think its possible ...

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...In my opinion I dont think thats possible.

That is YOUR problem.

Others of us believe that "...for with God all things are possible." (LK 1:37; Mk 10:27)

Besides, you aren't grasping what I am saying. No problem. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 4, 2019 by wenglund