Maureen Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) The Trinity states that God is one, there is only one divine being, and that divine being is God. And from before the beginning of time that divine being has existed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, 3 distinct persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit have relationships with each other, they are individually and collectively God. Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord (Deuteronomy 6:4) Wherefore thou art great, O Lord God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (2 Samuel 7:22) O Lord, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (1 Chronicles 17:20) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me... (Isaiah 46:9) The Godhead as believed by the Latter-day Saints says this from lds.org: ...But where Latter-day Saints differ from other Christian religions is in their belief that God and Jesus Christ are glorified, physical beings and that each member of the Godhead is a separate being. https://www.lds.org/topics/godhead?lang=eng M. Edited March 27, 2019 by Maureen JohnsonJones, AbramM, prisonchaplain and 1 other 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, Maureen said: The Trinity states that God is one, there is only one divine being, and that divine being is God. And from before the beginning of time that divine being has existed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, 3 distinct persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit have relationships with each other, they are individually and collectively God. Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord (Deuteronomy 6:4) Wherefore thou art great, O Lord God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (2 Samuel 7:22) O Lord, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (1 Chronicles 17:20) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me... (Isaiah 46:9) The Godhead as believed by the Latter-day Saints says this from lds.org: ...But where Latter-day Saints differ from other Christian religions is in their belief that God and Jesus Christ are glorified, physical beings and that each member of the Godhead is a separate being. https://www.lds.org/topics/godhead?lang=eng M. Maureen, it would have been better if we heard from Abram how he explained to us his foundational faith in the oneness of God. The objective here is not to teach us the Trinity. The objective here is to bridge the gap between Abram and his girlfriend's faith practice which is the reason for the OP. Jane_Doe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Maureen, it would have been better if we heard from Abram how he explained to us his foundational faith in the oneness of God. The objective here is not to teach us the Trinity. The objective here is to bridge the gap between Abram and his girlfriend's faith practice which is the reason for the OP. My post is in reply to @unixknight's post. But to be able to bridge the gap between @AbramM and his girlfriend, we would have to know what his girlfriend really believes. M. Edited March 27, 2019 by Maureen Jane_Doe, mordorbund and prisonchaplain 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, Maureen said: The Trinity states that God is one, there is only one divine being, and that divine being is God. And from before the beginning of time that divine being has existed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, 3 distinct persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit have relationships with each other, they are individually and collectively God. Ok, so how is that different from modalism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, unixknight said: Ok, so how is that different from modalism? Definition of modalism : the theological doctrine that the members of the Trinity are not three distinct persons but rather three modes or forms of activity (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) under which God manifests himself M. JohnsonJones and unixknight 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 Thank you for clarifying the difference, @Maureen. And yeah, I have heard it explained both ways under the general category of 'trinity' from Catholic and from Protestant friends and acquaintances over the years. Anyway, the questions I asked earlier about Gethsemane, the Cross and Jesus' Baptism were all meant to illustrate the contradiction I see between the concept of the trinity/modalism and the events as described in Scripture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 41 minutes ago, unixknight said: Anyway, the questions I asked earlier about Gethsemane, the Cross and Jesus' Baptism were all meant to illustrate the contradiction I see between the concept of the trinity/modalism and the events as described in Scripture. There is no contradiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, AbramM said: There is no contradiction. That, my friend, is where we disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, AbramM said: Okay I will post some this afternoon. I have to go to finish an assignment this morning that is overdue 😂 *Thumbs up for getting assignments done, and for studying faith* Remember: the question here is HOW are the three persons of Father, Son, and Spirit one. Everyone already agrees that they are 3 persons, and 1 God. So the question is "how". Edited March 27, 2019 by Jane_Doe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 14 minutes ago, unixknight said: That, my friend, is where we disagree. You were claiming that I believe Jesus was praying to himself. I've explained to you i don't believe that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: *Thumbs up for getting assignments done, and for studying faith* Remember: the question here is HOW are the three persons of Father, Son, and Spirit one. Everyone already agrees that they are already 3 persons, and 1 God. So the question is "how". I'm not sure I can demonstrate specifically how, but I can show that the Holy Trinity is biblical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, AbramM said: I'm not sure I can demonstrate specifically how, but I can show that the Holy Trinity is biblical. Then you must show HOW 3 are 1, because HOW which is actual point of discussion here. No one here is arguing that 3 are 1, in fact everyone here very much agrees on that. Edited March 27, 2019 by Jane_Doe person0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, AbramM said: You were claiming that I believe Jesus was praying to himself. I've explained to you i don't believe that. I'm glad you don't. We agree on this point. (As to some background on on Unixknight's post) There is a theological concept called modalism, where in it is believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one person, just taking on different roles. Now, when you do a formal theology study, this is clearly not Trinitarian nor LDS Christian beliefs. But informally, you'll find a LOT of people sitting in Trinitarian pews that actually believe modalism (simply due to lack of study, not due to lack of loving Christ). These poorly-informed folks then go to LDS Christians and explain their views (modalism) while (incorrectly) calling it Trintarism. And then the now poorly informed LDS Christian goes to tell his other LDS Christians friends this bad information and it just spreads. The whole thing becomes a mess of bad information going around, like a persistent flu. It gets even worse when folks use the bad information to attack each other, and it becomes a battle ground all founded on bad info. .The only way to stop it is really in-depth study and listening to others. Edited March 27, 2019 by Jane_Doe Adding more roundness to fully express my thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 3 hours ago, AbramM said: That's a big statement to make based on something as biased as Please note that that statement includes members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints; it is not a targeted statement. Additionally, It is really not that big of a statement; especially when you consider that I spent two years as a full time proselyting missionary knocking on thousands of peoples doors and discussing religion with many thousands of people from various religious backgrounds. Secondly, please look at the grammar of the phrase: 15 hours ago, person0 said: . . . amidst serious scrutiny; in my experience, the lack of adequate answers . . . The 'in my experience' part is related to the phrase that follows it, not the one that precedes it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 23 minutes ago, AbramM said: You were claiming that I believe Jesus was praying to himself. I've explained to you i don't believe that. So you agree that Jesus was praying to Heavenly Father, a separate divine being? (Not a gotcha question, just trying to be sure to understand where you're coming from.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, unixknight said: So you agree that Jesus was praying to Heavenly Father, a separate divine being? A separate person of the same divine being. The person of Jesus (God the son) was praying to the person of God the father. However, they are both the being of God. Edited March 27, 2019 by AbramM prisonchaplain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 43 minutes ago, person0 said: The 'in my experience' part is related to the phrase that follows it, not the one that precedes it. oh sorry I assume your previous statement was based on fact then. Not your experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 6 minutes ago, AbramM said: A separate person of the same divine being. The person of Jesus (God the son) was praying to the person of God the father. However, they are both the being of God. Ok so that's t he core of what I'm getting at. If we're talking about one divine being, then that would mean Jesus was talking to Himself. I understand you are drawing a distinction between them as separate persons, but if God is one Being then He's still talking to Himself. The idea of separate persons doesn't alter that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 minute ago, unixknight said: Ok so that's t he core of what I'm getting at. If we're talking about one divine being, then that would mean Jesus was talking to Himself. I understand you are drawing a distinction between them as separate persons, but if God is one Being then He's still talking to Himself. The idea of separate persons doesn't alter that. No the Son was talking to the Father. However, the Son is still the being of God and the Father is the being of God, but Jesus is in no way praying to himself, and God the father is in no way listenting to himself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 hours ago, anatess2 said: Maureen, it would have been better if we heard from Abram how he explained to us his foundational faith in the oneness of God. The objective here is not to teach us the Trinity. The objective here is to bridge the gap between Abram and his girlfriend's faith practice which is the reason for the OP. Everything @Maureen said is what I believe. I know a few other passages such as the prologue of John that shows the trinity is biblical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, AbramM said: Everything @Maureen said is what I believe. I know a few other passages such as the prologue of John that shows the trinity is biblical In order to show that the Trinity is Biblical, you must cites verses talking about HOW they are 1. Their substance, this "being" vs "person" idea, etc. It's the HOW that is the discussion here. Not the fact that the Father, Son, Spirit are 3 persons in 1 God-- that's completely agreed upon. Edited March 27, 2019 by Jane_Doe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, AbramM said: No the Son was talking to the Father. However, the Son is still the being of God and the Father is the being of God, but Jesus is in no way praying to himself, and God the father is in no way listenting to himself If He's one Being, why would it be necessary for one to talk out loud to the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Until you talk about HOW they are 1, you have not actually shown the Biblicalness of the Trinity. It's not necessary for me to show how they are 1. Only to show that it is a biblical teaching that they are one. I can't tell you how God made the world in 6 days, but I know it is biblical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just now, AbramM said: It's not necessary for me to show how they are 1. Only to show that it is a biblical teaching that they are one. I can't tell you how God made the world in 6 days, but I know it is biblical. If that's you stance and functioning definition of the Trinity, that's totally fine. Under that functioning definition, LDS Christians are Trinitarians. Under a more in-depth definition (such as theological scholars do) there is a difference between the two views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just now, Jane_Doe said: If that's you stance and functioning definition of the Trinity, that's totally fine. Under that functioning definition, LDS Christians are Trinitarians. Under a more in-depth definition (such as theological scholars do) there is a difference between the two views. I believe the 3 persons are 1 being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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