AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: If that's you stance and functioning definition of the Trinity, that's totally fine. Under that functioning definition, LDS Christians are Trinitarians. please stop saying that I agree with the LDS teaching because I don't. I believe in the Trinity I believe God is 3 persons in 1 being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, AbramM said: I believe the 3 persons are 1 being. According to which Bible verse? 8 minutes ago, AbramM said: please stop saying that I agree with the LDS teaching because I don't. I believe in the Trinity I believe God is 3 persons in 1 being. Again, according to which Bible verse? I'm sorry if I'm offending you here, but I'm looking past sayings here and trying to go in depth. The difference in the views is the HOW and the origins behind that theology. It's totally fine if going in-depth does not interest you, but then you're not getting to where the differences are and functionally they are the identical idea. Edited March 27, 2019 by Jane_Doe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 18 minutes ago, unixknight said: If He's one Being, why would it be necessary for one to talk out loud to the other? I don't know any other way to explain this to you: Jesus was God the Son and a man. The man Jesus was praying to the father. Whilst Jesus was fully man he was also fully God, I think that is what is confusing you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 minute ago, AbramM said: I don't know any other way to explain this to you: Jesus was God the Son and a man. The man Jesus was praying to the father. Whilst Jesus was fully man he was also fully God, I think that is what is confusing you. LDS Christians 100% believe that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: LDS Christians 100% believe that too. Well then why is it such a mystery that Jesus would pray to the father? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just now, AbramM said: Well then why is it such a mystery that Jesus would pray to the father? That's not the mystery at all. The difference is HOW the Father & Son are one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said: That's not the mystery at all. The difference is HOW the Father & Son are one. I have explained the answer as to why Jesus praying doesn't contradict the trinity so many times. 1 being 3 persons. Jesus the man who is also God the son was praying to the father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just now, AbramM said: I have explained the answer as to why Jesus praying doesn't contradict the trinity so many times. 1 being 3 persons. Jesus the man who is also God the son was praying to the father. It doesn't contradict it, but it also doesn't support it. To support the Trinity, you'll need to site verses explaining the definitions of person, being, and how they differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: It doesn't contradict it, but it also doesn't support it. To support the Trinity, you'll need to site verses explaining the definitions of person, being, and how they differ. @unixknight believes it does. I was trying to answer this question from him: If He's one Being, why would it be necessary for one to talk out loud to the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, AbramM said: @unixknight believes it does. I was trying to answer this question from him: If He's one Being, why would it be necessary for one to talk out loud to the other? @unixknight is simply pointing out the nebulous difference between "person" and "being". This is not explained any where in scripture, but is the lynchpin of the Trinity. To get at this, you must reach beyond the Bible. Edited March 27, 2019 by Jane_Doe unixknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 hour ago, unixknight said: So you agree that Jesus was praying to Heavenly Father, a separate divine being?... @unixknight, would you say that in how you view the Godhead the words 'personage' and 'being' can be interchanged? Because in understanding the Trinity, the words 'person' and 'being' are defined differently. In the Trinity, there is only ONE divine BEING. The persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can be identified as individually God (one being) or collectively God (one being). So therefore Jesus is God (one being) and the Father and Holy Spirit are God (one being). But there are not three Gods (three beings), there is only ONE God (one being). M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 49 minutes ago, AbramM said: oh sorry I assume your previous statement was based on fact then. Not your experience. Quote 1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. . . . 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. . . . 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Matt. 25) I think this parable is adequate justification for my statement. Aside from that, if you think that the majority of people who consider themselves Christian are well versed and spiritually educated, you should branch out and meet more people; you can see for yourself they are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Maureen said: @unixknight, would you say that in how you view the Godhead the words 'personage' and 'being' can be interchanged? Because in understanding the Trinity, the words 'person' and 'being' are defined differently. In the Trinity, there is only ONE divine BEING. The persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can be identified as individually God (one being) or collectively God (one being). So therefore Jesus is God (one being) and the Father and Holy Spirit are God (one being). But there are not three Gods (three beings), there is only ONE God (one being). M. I get that Maureen. However, such logic is from ECF and the Creeds, and you can't cite a Bible verse to support it. Which is totally fine if a person wants to acknowledge that and openly not be sola biblia. But it is frustrating for an LDS Christian to hear a person listen to a sola-scriptura Trinitarian Christian gesture that the Trinity is 100% supported by the Bible, because of that reason. Particularly when Trinitarians invest so much emotion in that, and so objects when another person 100% believes the Bible but not that interpretation of it. Speaking personally, functionally 99% of the time there is zero difference between the two views. I find the differences between a Calvinistic view on God and an Arminian one to be MUCH greater. But there's relatively little stink made about that. Edited March 27, 2019 by Jane_Doe unixknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 14 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: It doesn't contradict it, but it also doesn't support it. To support the Trinity, you'll need to site verses explaining the definitions of person, being, and how they differ. Explain to me how @AbramM explaining the 'how' of the Trinity will help him with his dilemma with his girlfriend. We don't really know what she believes. It also appears that neither does @AbramM. M. mordorbund 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Maureen said: Explain to me how @AbramM explaining the 'how' of the Trinity will help him with his dilemma with his girlfriend. We don't really know what she believes. It also appears that neither does @AbramM. M. We have urged Abram over and over again to talk to his girlfriend about what SHE believes. I don't see how adding another urge will make a difference. However, if Abram is remotely interested in pursuing her, learning about LDS Christian belief is important. Because even if she were a Protestant already (or even an atheist), her family LDS Christian (he mentioned her brother was currently on a mission). You need to take the time to understand and love your spouse-to-be's family. Edited March 27, 2019 by Jane_Doe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 I wasn't trying to convince anyone to believe in the Trinity. For me it shows God's nature and the essence of God, so for me it is fundamental to my faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, AbramM said: I wasn't trying to convince anyone to believe in the Trinity. For me it shows God's nature and the essence of God, so for me it is fundamental to my faith. And if your girlfriend believed that the Father, Son, and Spirit were 3 person in 1 God via unity (instead of substance), would that be a deal-breaker for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, AbramM said: I wasn't trying to convince anyone to believe in the Trinity. For me it shows God's nature and the essence of God, so for me it is fundamental to my faith. A belief that you can not back up with biblical scriptures... Which is fine... But when you choose to judge someone else Christianity and relationship with God... You need more then "because they disagree with me" as a reason unixknight and person0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 15 minutes ago, AbramM said: I wasn't trying to convince anyone to believe in the Trinity. For me it shows God's nature and the essence of God, so for me it is fundamental to my faith. We aren't trying to convince you to believe in the LDS Godhead either. What I was trying to show you is that your foundational faith in the Oneness of God is not contradicted by the LDS Faith. You believe God is One. The LDS believe God is One. You believe there are 3 Persons in that One God. The LDS believe there are 3 Persons in that One God. I am simply trying to bridge the gap between you and your girlfriend in case you want to pursue the relationship. If you have no intention of pursuing the relationship then this conversation is moot. Jane_Doe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 15 minutes ago, estradling75 said: A belief that you can not back up with biblical scriptures... Which is fine... But when you choose to judge someone else Christianity and relationship with God... You need more then "because they disagree with me" as a reason I can back it up with scripture Who did I judge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 19 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: And if your girlfriend believed that the Father, Son, and Spirit were 3 person in 1 God via unity (instead of substance), would that be a deal-breaker for you? Yes how can I be married to someone who has different beliefsabout God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, AbramM said: Yes how can I be married to someone who has different beliefsabout God. Well, @Jane_Doe is LDS happily married to a Protestant. Cool, huh? unixknight and Jane_Doe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, AbramM said: I can back it up with scripture You have been repeatedly challenged to show your belief on "How" God is One.. (not just that he is) using the scriptures... You have repeatedly failed to do so... I will issue it again... Show how God is of One Physical Sustenance (per the creeds) ...Using scriptures 11 minutes ago, AbramM said: Who did I judge? Oh lets see how about your girlfriend Yes here we go 9 minutes ago, AbramM said: Yes how can I be married to someone who has different beliefs about God. There is the judgement... As to your question People do it all the time.... It requires respect and listening Jane_Doe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 hour ago, AbramM said: I don't know any other way to explain this to you: Jesus was God the Son and a man. The man Jesus was praying to the father. Whilst Jesus was fully man he was also fully God, I think that is what is confusing you. It isn't that I'm confused, it's that I'm trying to make a point. Sometimes when you reply, you sound like you're describing the same thing we believe: That the 3 Members of the Godhead are distinct and separate. At other times, you sound like you're saying the 3 are one single Being. So my question was both rhetorical and direct: If you believe the Father and the Son to be entirely separate, then no contradiction exists. It is natural than Jesus would speak to Heavenly Father. On the other hand, if you believe them to be different and yet the same divine Being, then that's logically contradicted in Scripture, because not only do these separate Beings speak to one another, they also appear to have diverging wills, in at least one significant instance. 1 hour ago, Maureen said: @unixknight, would you say that in how you view the Godhead the words 'personage' and 'being' can be interchanged? Great question. Yes I would. 1 hour ago, Maureen said: In the Trinity, there is only ONE divine BEING. The persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can be identified as individually God (one being) or collectively God (one being). So therefore Jesus is God (one being) and the Father and Holy Spirit are God (one being). But there are not three Gods (three beings), there is only ONE God (one being). I honestly mean no offense in what I'm going to write here, I'm just going to be direct in order to be clear since I think maybe we're on different pages. The descriptions I"m hearing here, along with what I was taught as a Catholic, honestly sound to me like an effort to have it both ways... To have 3 identities for God while stopping short of actually acknowledging that there are separate entities. Given what's in your quote here, how do you account for Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, when He asked if the cup could pass from Him, but ultimately accepted God's will, as distinct from His own? How can they not be separate Beings if they do not share the same will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 31 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Well, @Jane_Doe is LDS happily married to a Protestant. Cool, huh? I don't know if it's cool. It's good they have managed to work it out, but I think the Lord wants me to marry a woman who shares my faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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