AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 27 minutes ago, estradling75 said: Oh lets see how about your girlfriend I've never judged her for anything except her unwillingness to be honest with me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) Sometimes, my faith can be confusing. I have not the faintest clue why God has asked me to not drink tea. I have some guesses and speculation, that's it. That said, mainstream trinitarian Christianity's notion of the nature of God is waaaay more confusing. From Wikipedia: Quote The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus "threefold") holds that God is one God, but three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios). In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is. Folks haven't fought a war over this in a while, I guess, but they still argue about what all that means, and which is The Right (tm) way to see God all the time. Everywhere. And it's not always denomination vs denomination - head over to the Catholic board, and you can see them arguing with each other. Baptists argue with Baptists. Etc. None of those big words is actually in the Bible, they started showing up after Jesus left them, and the apostles died, and everyone started arguing. I'm grateful for my church's simple and easy-to-keep straight understanding of the nature of God. 3 distinct beings. Unified perfectly in purpose. No praying to a separate aspect of yourself necessary. No sermons with catchy but impossible phrases like "one plus one plus one equals one, praise the Lord!" necessary. I don't need to know what homoousios means. Imma kneel at the feet of my Master, Jesus Christ, who will judge perfect judgment. He might have some helpers helping. After that's done, if things go well for me, I'll make it back to the presence of my Heavenly Father, which I'm told is so dang cool I can't even conceive how cool. I hope to see y'all there, or at least I hope y'all will miss me if I'm not there. Edited March 27, 2019 by NeuroTypical Jane_Doe, Midwest LDS and unixknight 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: After that's done, if things go well for me, I'll make it back to the presence of my Heavenly Father You should be sure of your salvation. It's not about hoping things go well. You're either saved or you're not, so if you're uncertain you're probably not and you should fix that. I completely believe in the trinity and it's a big part of my faith. However, if you make it to heaven and find out the trinity is true then I doubt you will care that you were wrong about the trinity. JohnsonJones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, unixknight said: ...Given what's in your quote here, how do you account for Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, when He asked if the cup could pass from Him, but ultimately accepted God's will, as distinct from His own? How can they not be separate Beings if they do not share the same will? Because in understanding the trinity we cannot conflate the words 'person' and 'being'. The Father and Son are not separate 'beings' they are distinct 'persons'. Scripture shows that God the Son is distinct from God the Father. M. AbramM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, unixknight said: Given what's in your quote here, how do you account for Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, when He asked if the cup could pass from Him, but ultimately accepted God's will, as distinct from His own? How can they not be separate Beings if they do not share the same will? It was Jesus the man and his human nature who wanted to be spared not Jesus who is God the son! In Matthew 26 verse 41, Jesus says "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Clearly showing his divine self as the Son of God was willing but as the Son of Man his flesh wanted to be spared. You have to look at that prayer as coming from the Son of Man rather than the Son of God (eventhough Christ was also the Son of God in that moment) . Edited March 27, 2019 by AbramM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, AbramM said: You should be sure of your salvation. It's not about hoping things go well. You're either saved or you're not, so if you're uncertain you're probably not and you should fix that. Okay, you're already sure you're a slam dunk... so... you don't need to do anything anymore. Did I get that right? 1 minute ago, Maureen said: Because in understanding the trinity we cannot conflate the words 'person' and 'being'. The Father and Son are not separate 'beings' they are distinct 'persons'. Scripture shows that God the Son is distinct from God the Father. M. Scripture also shows they are One. Now... drum roll... show me the scripture that says HOW they are one. Jane_Doe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, Maureen said: Because in understanding the trinity we cannot conflate the words 'person' and 'being'. The Father and Son are not separate 'beings' they are distinct 'persons'. Scripture shows that God the Son is distinct from God the Father. I see. Chapter and verse, please? 3 minutes ago, AbramM said: It was Jesus the man and his human nature who wanted to be spared not Jesus who is God the son! In Matthew 26 verse 41, Jesus says "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Clearly showing his divine self as the Son of God was willing but as the Son of Man his flesh wanted to be spared. You have to look at that prayer as coming from the Son of Man rather than the Son of God (eventhough Christ was also the Son of God in that moment) . So... now there is more than one Jesus? I'm being facetious, I admit... But hopefully you can see my point. The Scriptures do not say that, nor do they say anything like it. That sounds, (and again I'm being blunt for clarity, not to be insulting) like a philosophical construct to avoid the plain and simple interpretation that Jesus and Heavenly Father are, in fact, distinct Beings. Midwest LDS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 minute ago, unixknight said: So... now there is more than one Jesus? Look either you believe Jesus was fully God and fully man or you don't. If you do then what I said should make perfect sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 minute ago, AbramM said: Look either you believe Jesus was fully God and fully man or you don't. If you do then what I said should make perfect sense. It isn't obvious to me how that statement either supports or is supported by a trinity/modalist model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Okay, you're already sure you're a slam dunk... so... you don't need to do anything anymore. Did I get that right? I will be in heaven because I am saved. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. John 6 verse 47 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 minute ago, unixknight said: It isn't obvious to me how that statement either supports or is supported by a trinity/modalist model. Does it or does it not explain the question you asked about how can there be 2 wills if there is 1 being? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just now, AbramM said: Does it or does it not explain the question you asked about how can there be 2 wills if there is 1 being? I'm afraid it does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just now, AbramM said: I will be in heaven because I am saved. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. John 6 verse 47 So, what's the point of studying the scriptures, listening to sermons, pleading with the Holy Spirit for revelation if the ultimate goal is to be saved and you already achieved it? (By the way, just to express the purpose of my questions - this is another difference between Protestants and LDS. We also think we are saved, but that's not the ultimate goal - the ultimate goal is Exaltation). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 9 minutes ago, anatess2 said: ...Scripture also shows they are One. Now... drum roll... show me the scripture that says HOW they are one. I'm not sure scripture has ever explained how God is God. The only thing I can think of is when God declares himself as "I AM". Meaning "I am who I am". A declaration of self-existence, self-sufficency. M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, unixknight said: I'm afraid it does not. Friend I can't help you understand. I don't know why it is so hard for you, but I will pray that God will give you the wisdom to understand the trinity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just now, Maureen said: I'm not sure scripture has ever explained how God is God. The only thing I can think of is when God declares himself as "I AM". Meaning "I am who I am". A declaration of self-existence, self-sufficency. M. The Bible does not contain HOW God is One. It does state how God is God - He created us and gave us purpose, so he is our God. Your understanding of what makes God God - that which is his substance, and not His Will - is not in scripture. That's the reason that Hellenistic views got merged into man's understanding of God that gave birth to the great debates that caused the creation of the creeds as well as the schisms. Jane_Doe and Midwest LDS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, AbramM said: Friend I can't help you understand. I don't know why it is so hard for you, but I will pray that God will give you the wisdom to understand the trinity. Abram, at least he is trying. You, on the other hand, are not trying to understand where @unixknight is coming from. Jane_Doe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, AbramM said: Friend I can't help you understand. I don't know why it is so hard for you, but I will pray that God will give you the wisdom to understand the trinity. I think the issue here is, respectfully, that you're assuming I don't understand simply because I don't agree. What I'm hoping to do is get you to acknowledge that others may see it differently. 9 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Abram, at least he is trying. You, on the other hand, are not trying to understand where @unixknight is coming from. That's ok. I believe I made my point. Edited March 27, 2019 by unixknight Midwest LDS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, anatess2 said: ...It does state how God is God - He created us and gave us purpose, so he is our God... His creation of mankind and the world didn't make him God. He was God before he created anything. M. AbramM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, Maureen said: His creation of mankind and the world didn't make him God. He was God before he created anything. M. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Amen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 9 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Abram, at least he is trying. You, on the other hand, are not trying to understand where @unixknight is coming from. I answered his questions, he didn't try to understand the answers. I tried my best to help him understand but it wasn't possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 23 minutes ago, anatess2 said: So, what's the point of studying the scriptures, listening to sermons, pleading with the Holy Spirit for revelation if the ultimate goal is to be saved and you already achieved it? As a saved christian it is natural to want to walk closely with the Lord. I read scripture every day to edify myself and seek God's guidance for my day to day life. There are blessings that come with these things. However, salvation is not one of them, that is a gift from God and is not dependent on any works that we may do. Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: 9 it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. John 8:34:36 34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 5 hours ago, anatess2 said: Maureen, it would have been better if we heard from Abram how he explained to us his foundational faith in the oneness of God. The objective here is not to teach us the Trinity. The objective here is to bridge the gap between Abram and his girlfriend's faith practice which is the reason for the OP. At this point there does seem to be an open discussion of the Trinity. Perhaps I am mistaken, but the general counsel that @AbramM has received concerning his girlfriend is to have an open, direct conversation about where she is really at (committed LDS vs. not-committed and open to traditional Christian churches). After that is resolved, @AbramM has indicated he is willing to pursue or leave her, depending on where she is spiritually. So...if the only purpose of the Trinity discussion here is to get the OP to believe there really isn't much difference between the two beliefs, with no input from his fellow Protestants, then I would suggest that that's odd. The difference is significant. It's so significant there's been the suggestion that LDS Christianity should be seen as a whole new branch, rather than as a Protestant denomination (an Idea I agreed with, btw). Can we say it's that big, and then that it's no big deal? MrShorty, Maureen, mordorbund and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, AbramM said: I answered his questions, he didn't try to understand the answers. I tried my best to help him understand but it wasn't possible. "unixknight disagrees, therefore he doesn't understand me." Brother, I understand your perspective very, very well. I disagree with it precisely because I understand it. My questions are designed to get you to think about the answers as a way of making my point. You speak as though your point of view were obvious and plain. It is not. I've been offering you opportunity after opportunity to show me, Scripturally and plainly, where the trinitarian/modalist view comes from and instead of rising to the challenge, mostly what I've got back is "You don't understand so I can't help you." Now, if you'd like to agree to disagree, we can certainly do that, since this is a matter of worldviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 6 hours ago, unixknight said: Ok, so how is that different from modalism? To offer a crude definition, the Trinity says God is 3 in 1. Modalism says God is 1 in 3. unixknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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