Vort

Creeping mediocrity masquerading as virtue

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@Serviteur du seigneur - I have pondered for a while a possible response.  But there are some serious problems with my initial opinion - so I am not sure how to approach you.  Also I tend to come across rather cold - most likely because I am somewhat cold.  But being cold is not my only intent.  Sometimes in life it is necessary to see "things" in a different perspective.   And so I will begin - a different perspective.  

In all your discussions - it seems to me that you only see your side and interpretation.  Mostly you are concerned that girls do not see the "real" you.  I have traveled a great deal and seldom have I met active Saints to be so shallow.  My impression is that something about you is being hidden as though it is some dark secret you do not want anyone to know.   I think this happens when someone sees all that is possible to be negative to be outside of them.  Lots of saintly ladies marry men that have not served a mission - and a great number even marry men that are not even members of the church.

I cannot prove a thing because I do not know you - except what I see on this forum.  But what I see is that you clearly place all the blame of the women that will not date you.  I am suggesting that if all the single lades you meet in the church do not want a relationship with you - that the mission thing could be the excuse and not the reason.  I could be wrong - but you are posting all this on a forum where no one know two things about you and all that they can see - you have complete control.  Which means if you have something to hide - you would have no problem doing so.  Somewhere in this church, where you attend and are well known - are those that could offer much better advice specific to your personal dilemma. 

Since this seem to be a recurring theme - I thought to offer something a little different.  That you need to see through the eyes of single ladies.  Not so you can possibly be what they are looking for but to realize that there are some things you can take to heart, learn and apply to become a better person than you are.

 

I do hope you can find a lady for whom you can fulfill her every eternal dream and fantasy at least to the degree that you expect for yourself.

 

The Traveler 

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On 5/8/2020 at 2:07 PM, Serviteur du seigneur said:

So most of the girls i met there were also born in the church. Look, I dont know if you have been knowing but, the church is not really growing overall ( i can guess reasons for that!!! ), it's been a long time since i saw any converts of my age, most are much older.

Brazil doesn't have any converts? I don't believe that to be true for a second. According to this article from the Church's website, there are more than 35,000 converts a year in Brazil. I served a mission in Brazil, and we routinely baptized multiple people each transfer (every six weeks). You can look at the church stats for Brazil, and see that there are 2,142 congregations in the country. That comes out to 16.3 convert baptisms per congregation in the country. That is significant. I can't imagine a typical ward in the U.S. having more than 3-4 converts per year. 

It's possible that the girls you associate with are all life-long members. That is a very real possibility. But, Brazil is flooding with new converts. I promise you that there are dozens of recent converts in each stake. And recent converts tend to be on the younger side, as they are typically much more open than an older person. Perhaps you need to venture out into the other wards in the stake - or even visit another stake altogether. It's not unusual at all to see Elders Quorum Presidents or Ward Mission Leaders that have only been a member for a year or two.

Overall, I would say listen to the counsel that others have given. Be confident. Be interesting. Be engaged. If you feel like you're not making any progress, I would ask for advice from those close to you, or perhaps from the women themselves. They can make observations and give valid suggestions where they think you might need to refine your approach. 

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16 minutes ago, ldsguy422 said:

Brazil doesn't have any converts? I don't believe that to be true for a second. According to this article from the Church's website, there are more than 35,000 converts a year in Brazil. I served a mission in Brazil, and we routinely baptized multiple people each transfer (every six weeks). You can look at the church stats for Brazil, and see that there are 2,142 congregations in the country. That comes out to 16.3 convert baptisms per congregation in the country. That is significant. I can't imagine a typical ward in the U.S. having more than 3-4 converts per year. 

It's possible that the girls you associate with are all life-long members. That is a very real possibility. But, Brazil is flooding with new converts. I promise you that there are dozens of recent converts in each stake. And recent converts tend to be on the younger side, as they are typically much more open than an older person. Perhaps you need to venture out into the other wards in the stake - or even visit another stake altogether. It's not unusual at all to see Elders Quorum Presidents or Ward Mission Leaders that have only been a member for a year or two.

Overall, I would say listen to the counsel that others have given. Be confident. Be interesting. Be engaged. If you feel like you're not making any progress, I would ask for advice from those close to you, or perhaps from the women themselves. They can make observations and give valid suggestions where they think you might need to refine your approach. 

A missionary once told me that people who get baptized in Brazil (I think that was the country, might have been another South American one)get baptized and never show up again. Maybe that's what he was talking about? 

Edited by MormonGator

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17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

A missionary once told me that people who get baptized in Brazil (I think that was the country, might have been another South American one)get baptized and never show up again. Maybe that's what he was talking about? 

There's a lot of truth to that. Missionaries were obsessed with baptizing. It's emphasized in almost every training, so it's not hard to see why this happens. And baptizing in Brazil is actually not challenging at all, IMO. We could go down any street any probably get in 50% of the homes. Some of those that let us into their home will come to church - and a few of those who come to church will get baptized. You have to be really lazy or inefficient not to be baptizing on a regular basis. 

But to your point, retention is incredibly difficult in South American countries. From my understanding, it was somewhere around 20-25% in Brazil. I think it's somewhat of cultural thing. South Americans tend to be on the friendly side, and they struggle saying no. It's easier for them to just avoid someone altogether. The other difficult thing to untangle is the influence of the Catholic Church. When someone gets baptized, it's not unusual for a family member to have a talking with them about essentially slapping the family faith. They don't want to upset family members, so it's natural to revert to what's comfortable and what everyone else around them is following.

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3 minutes ago, ldsguy422 said:

There's a lot of truth to that. Missionaries were obsessed with baptizing. It's emphasized in almost every training, so it's not hard to see why this happens. And baptizing in Brazil is actually not challenging at all, IMO. We could go down any street any probably get in 50% of the homes. Some of those that let us into their home will come to church - and a few of those who come to church will get baptized. You have to be really lazy or inefficient not to be baptizing on a regular basis. 

But to your point, retention is incredibly difficult in South American countries. From my understanding, it was somewhere around 20-25% in Brazil. I think it's somewhat of cultural thing. South Americans tend to be on the friendly side, and they struggle saying no. It's easier for them to just avoid someone altogether. The other difficult thing to untangle is the influence of the Catholic Church. When someone gets baptized, it's not unusual for a family member to have a talking with them about essentially slapping the family faith. They don't want to upset family members, so it's natural to revert to what's comfortable and what everyone else around them is following.

Thanks bud, I never knew that and always wondered why they'd show up once than never again. Makes perfect sense! 

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4 hours ago, ldsguy422 said:

Brazil doesn't have any converts? I don't believe that to be true for a second. According to this article from the Church's website, there are more than 35,000 converts a year in Brazil. I served a mission in Brazil, and we routinely baptized multiple people each transfer (every six weeks). You can look at the church stats for Brazil, and see that there are 2,142 congregations in the country. That comes out to 16.3 convert baptisms per congregation in the country. That is significant. I can't imagine a typical ward in the U.S. having more than 3-4 converts per year. 

It's possible that the girls you associate with are all life-long members. That is a very real possibility. But, Brazil is flooding with new converts. I promise you that there are dozens of recent converts in each stake. And recent converts tend to be on the younger side, as they are typically much more open than an older person. Perhaps you need to venture out into the other wards in the stake - or even visit another stake altogether. It's not unusual at all to see Elders Quorum Presidents or Ward Mission Leaders that have only been a member for a year or two.

Overall, I would say listen to the counsel that others have given. Be confident. Be interesting. Be engaged. If you feel like you're not making any progress, I would ask for advice from those close to you, or perhaps from the women themselves. They can make observations and give valid suggestions where they think you might need to refine your approach. 

This number doesn't take into account reality. The missionary service in Brazil is not one of quality, its something focused in quantity. So, the baptisms they get usually don't last long, most stop coming to church in the second week.

Also, i didn't saw many young people getting baptized. Unfortunately, they see the missionaries as jehovah witnesses and are frequently embarassed to be around them, because most people will see them as annoying.

Being lds in Brazil is a sure bet one's going to get bullied.

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39 minutes ago, Serviteur du seigneur said:

This number doesn't take into account reality. The missionary service in Brazil is not one of quality, its something focused in quantity. So, the baptisms they get usually don't last long, most stop coming to church in the second week.

My son returned from his two-year mission to São Paulo West about a year ago. He says the above is an overstatement, that clearly some people do remain active in the Church and help build the kingdom. He did allow that many Brazilian missions baptize large numbers of people, most of whom go inactive almost immediately. He says that this seems common in the northern missions. He says that his mission was noted for having the highest retention rate of the Brazilian missions, though also among the lowest baptismal rate per missionary.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

My son returned from his two-year mission to São Paulo West about a year ago. He says the above is an overstatement, that clearly some people do remain active in the Church and help build the kingdom. He did allow that many Brazilian missions baptize large numbers of people, most of whom go inactive almost immediately. He says that this seems common in the northern missions. He says that his mission was noted for having the highest retention rate of the Brazilian missions, though also among the lowest baptismal rate per missionary.

That's so cool, congratulations on them ! Retention is what matters most.

As matter of fact, the lack of retention because one had put greater importance on quantity can bring so much sadness... just one of these days, there was a returned missionary friend of mine almost crying because almost no one he taught kept going to church, and i guess that's the reason.

How do i know ? " Man, i baptized so many people, yet almost none is active "

The measure for success is how many one baptized, instead of the retention rate. Sadly.

Edited by Serviteur du seigneur

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16 hours ago, Serviteur du seigneur said:

The measure for success is how many one baptized, instead of the retention rate

I’m not even convinced retention rate is a measure of “success”. That is obviously the goal, but souls are not statistics, and we have little control over agency.

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17 hours ago, Vort said:

My son returned from his two-year mission to São Paulo West about a year ago. He says the above is an overstatement, that clearly some people do remain active in the Church and help build the kingdom. He did allow that many Brazilian missions baptize large numbers of people, most of whom go inactive almost immediately. He says that this seems common in the northern missions. He says that his mission was noted for having the highest retention rate of the Brazilian missions, though also among the lowest baptismal rate per missionary.

My dad baptized 40+ people in Brazil and he said he only knows of a few that are active. Similar story of a buddy of mine. He had 20 baptisms in one day, all of which are inactive now.

this is all second hand, so I don’t know the truth, just what I hear.

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32 minutes ago, Fether said:
17 hours ago, Vort said:

My son returned from his two-year mission to São Paulo West about a year ago. He says the above is an overstatement, that clearly some people do remain active in the Church and help build the kingdom. He did allow that many Brazilian missions baptize large numbers of people, most of whom go inactive almost immediately. He says that this seems common in the northern missions. He says that his mission was noted for having the highest retention rate of the Brazilian missions, though also among the lowest baptismal rate per missionary.

My dad baptized 40+ people in Brazil and he said he only knows of a few that are active. Similar story of a buddy of mine. He had 20 baptisms in one day, all of which are inactive now.

this is all second hand, so I don’t know the truth, just what I hear.

My dad also served in Sao Paulo and he would tell us many of his mission stories with two purposes in mind: 1) so we would be excited for, prepare for, and serve a full-time mission; and 2) so we would know that the Rio mission was corrupt.

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3 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

My dad also served in Sao Paulo and he would tell us many of his mission stories with two purposes in mind: 1) so we would be excited for, prepare for, and serve a full-time mission; and 2) so we would know that the Rio mission was corrupt.

I have an ex-in-law who was excommunicated as a Brazilian missionary. Seems like it was Rio, but I don't remember for sure.

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What about baptisms in other countries in South America? Is it the same kind of thing? RE: retention, etc?

Edited by MormonGator

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

I have an ex-in-law who was excommunicated as a Brazilian missionary. Seems like it was Rio, but I don't remember for sure.

The Rio north mission was probably one of the worst missions that has ever been. Extremely wicked. I've heard things about this mission that completely broke my heart.

 And I think they had to close this mission years ago, because of how far wickedness evolved there. 

I remember that i was recently converted and getting to know the missionary service better and  i was walking around with the missionaries so i heard them chating about this mission. At that time, I even thought about leaving the church because the stuff i heard was hardcore and i was raised a baptist since i was a little kid and never have i known so much evil.

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

What about baptisms in other countries in South America? Is it the same kind of thing? RE: retention, etc?

It's probably pretty much the same. Latinos are extremely happy inviting people and they often take part in other's beliefs just to see their friends satisfied. That's a portion of what happens to the missionaries, they just dont take it too far.

Edited by Serviteur du seigneur

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6 hours ago, MormonGator said:

What about baptisms in other countries in South America? Is it the same kind of thing? RE: retention, etc?

If you care:

Brother #1 served in Argentina.  He never mentioned anything particularly evil or corrupt on his mission.

Brother #2 served in Guatemala and El Salvador.  He always spoke positively about his mission.  And even when he went through his inactive phase, he always spoke fondly of his time in the mission field.

Brother #3 served in the Sao Paulo Mission.  He always spoke positively about his mission.

Childhood friend served in Porto Alegre Mission.  He was positive overall.  But he didn't ever really give any specifics.

I served in Arizona (obviously not South / Central America).  There were corrupt missionaries.  And there were incorruptible missionaries.  I was somewhere on the lower side of middle on that scale.  But I eventually made it ok.

Edited by Carborendum

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