Tragedy Has Me Scratching My Head

[Carborendum]

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philly-gun-violence-onepa-shooting-homicide-20230508.html

Summary:

• Two campaign canvassers for "progressive candidates running on ending gun violence" in Philly. 
• Both are carrying guns.
• The younger man shoots and kills the older man.
• The older man was not allowed to carry due to a previous firearms incident.  But he still obtained one illegally.
• The younger man had it registered to him.  He had no criminal record or history of mental illness.

So, what progressive policy would have prevented this from happening?

[zil2]

Clever how the news article utterly ignored the glaring hypocrisy...

[Traveler]

On 5/10/2023 at 10:52 AM, Carborendum said:

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philly-gun-violence-onepa-shooting-homicide-20230508.html

Summary:

• Two campaign canvassers for "progressive candidates running on ending gun violence" in Philly. 
• Both are carrying guns.
• The younger man shoots and kills the older man.
• The older man was not allowed to carry due to a previous firearms incident.  But he still obtained one illegally.
• The younger man had it registered to him.  He had no criminal record or history of mental illness.

So, what progressive policy would have prevented this from happening?

That criminals are rehabilitated rather than punished.   Of course, this assumes that because a criminal was rehabilitated that if properly done or replicated all will be rehabilitated.  The problem in arguing with many in politics is that often it is not realized there are logical sizing problems; that what works for one individual seldom (never) applies (fits) to all.  The one size fits all is good in theory but does not work in reality.  I believe this is true for Republicans as well as Democrats.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

15 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The one size fits all is good in theory but does not work in reality.  I believe this is true for Republicans as well as Democrats.

Amen, but that no longer works in 2023. If you dare to think for yourself on issues (if you are a pro life democrat or a pro choice republican for example) you have two options. 1) keep quiet or 2) accept that 70% of your party will pull the “no true scotsman” card. 
 

It really shows that people don’t understand politics past the 7th grade “all or nothing” level. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by LDSGator

[Carborendum]

18 minutes ago, Traveler said:

On 5/10/2023 at 11:52 AM, Carborendum said:

So, what progressive policy would have prevented this from happening?

That criminals are rehabilitated rather than punished. 

I think that would be a fine idea.  But I've never seen any progressive policy that rehabilitates.  It only offers lighter sentencing.  That's all.  Not much of a chance of rehabilitation there.

Conservatives would "like" rehabilitation.  But there are problems with actually applying that in a consistent legal/penal system.  As you say, one size-fits-all is kinda hard to do.

But when Lady Justice is supposed to be blind, we require one-size-fits-all solutions.  I agree with the old saying "since when has justice been as simple as a rule book."  But to allow too much mercy in a mortal, government based, justice system would open the door to grift.

None of the systems that I've seen are good.  All we can really hope for is which one is the least bad.  And as long as society if corrupt, that is the best we can hope for.

[NeuroTypical]

I'll say some things, and would hope @mirkwood will tell me if I'm off about any of it. 

When I ask "how come prisons", I hear 4 answers:

1- Ensure society's safety by preventing the wrongdoer from doing more wrong.
2- Punish the wrongdoer. Supposedly serves 2 purposes:
      a. Act as a deterrent for people considering doing wrong. "I better not do that horrible thing, I don't want to go to prison."
      b. Reduce recidivism. "I thought I could get away with it, but I didn't.  I better not do that horrible thing AGAIN, I don't want to go to prison AGAIN."
3- Rehabilitate the wrongdoer.
4- Provide justice to the victims.

I once helped put a guy behind bars for 5-life.  He was serial abusing an 8 year old girl.

Pros of prison:

1- He didn't have access to any victims while in prison.  He's on the sex-offender registry (maybe for life), to help his neighbors be of heightened awareness around him.
2a-  Time will tell, but dude has been out 5-6 years, and remains free, so one might hope he's learned his lesson.
2b-  Dude was, for years, a massive red flag that everyone ignored.  Now he, and everyone he associates with, understand the fruits of that particular labor.
3- Dude was up for parole in 4 years, but he hadn't lifted a single finger to take any of the sex offender classes, or work to improve himself in any way, so back he went.  That seemed to have an impact on him, because in a year he had completed every program demanded of him.
4- Should be self-explanatory, unless you've never thought about it.  If you haven't, then think about it now: Imagine being that 8 year old girl, watching your abuser walking around scott free with zero bad consequences.  

Cons of prison:
1- Prison turns many inmates into evil dangerous monsters, and then releasing them on society as free men, worse than they were before incarceration.
2a- Some folks enjoy prison, work the system, extend influence within and beyond the walls.  Some folks need prison, and offend in order to go back.
2b- Dude and his supporters seem to have internalized the lesson that the folks who worked to put him behind bars are the bad guys.  The mom's learning seems to be "I better not let my baby boy do this any more, or those horrible people will come back and hurt him some more."  They are now better at hiding things from the law.  
3- The notion that losing your freedom for a portion of time "fixes you", is really hard to support with data, or even anecdotes.  
4- [Insert every criticism about the prison system you can find, from classroom-to-prison pipeline, to offenders who offend in prison, to ppl released a decade later because 'oops'.  The list is endless, and I'm not sure how much weight I put into any of it, but it's not zero weight.]

 

I submit if an earthly government does not (at least appear to) do all 4 of those things, it will be turned against by whatever portion of it's populace don't think the govt is doing right.

I look forward to seeing the Lord's perfect blend of mercy and justice.  Because humans try hard, but we usually stink at it.

Edited May 15, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[laronius]

On 5/15/2023 at 11:35 AM, NeuroTypical said:

 

I look forward to seeing the Lord's perfect blend of mercy and justice.  Because humans try hard, but we usually stink at it.

That I think includes omniscience, something we don't have the luxury of. Though I'm reminded of the scriptural account of Lamanites preaching the gospel to all of the Gadianton Robbers they caught and having amazing success in rehabilitating them. And while I suspect this may have been after executing those guilty of more grievous crimes I think we can say the gospel of Jesus Christ is the only source of true rehabilitation. Our current system of rehabilitation is just a watered down, nonreligious form of it. But the closer we can get to the real thing, the better.