Jarom 1:10

[askandanswer]

From my scripture reading this morning:

10 And it came to pass that the prophets of the Lord did threaten the people of Nephi, according to the word of God, that if they did not keep the commandments, but should fall into transgression, they should be ^adestroyed from off the face of the land.

How accurate do you think this verse is?

 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

53 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

From my scripture reading this morning:

10 And it came to pass that the prophets of the Lord did threaten the people of Nephi, according to the word of God, that if they did not keep the commandments, but should fall into transgression, they should be ^adestroyed from off the face of the land.

How accurate do you think this verse is?

 

Sounds pretty severe, but I think they were pretty evil at that time.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

From my scripture reading this morning:

10 And it came to pass that the prophets of the Lord did threaten the people of Nephi, according to the word of God, that if they did not keep the commandments, but should fall into transgression, they should be ^adestroyed from off the face of the land.

How accurate do you think this verse is?

 

As I drilled down into this scripture and checked the cross references – I was kind of shocked by what I saw, and I wondered if there was something here in reference for our day.  Of course, the Book of Mormon was written for our day but what surprised me was how certain words applied that are more specific to our particular generation and what is going on in the month of June 2023.

The term “destroyed” in verse 10 connects us to 1Nephi 12:19-20.  The phrase that surprised me in verse 19 reads as follows, “and because of the pride of my seed, and the temptations of the devil”

What we learn is that the social structure of the Nephites was destroyed off the face of the earth because of the Nephite celebration of their “Pride”.  If not for the Book of Mormon no one would know that the Nephites ever even existed.  It is likely that there are people genetically connected to Nephi and his decedents – but nothing of their society.  There is not even a single artifact in existence that we know for sure came from the Nephite civilization. 

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

From my scripture reading this morning:

10 And it came to pass that the prophets of the Lord did threaten the people of Nephi, according to the word of God, that if they did not keep the commandments, but should fall into transgression, they should be ^adestroyed from off the face of the land.

How accurate do you think this verse is?

 

100% accurate.

By the way, does anyone else insist on saying/writing "Jarom 10" instead of "Jarom 1:10"?

[mordorbund]

Omni 1:12-13

Quote

Behold, I am Amaleki, the son of Abinadom. Behold, I will speak unto you somewhat concerning ^aMosiah, who was made king over the ^bland of Zarahemla; for behold, he being ^cwarned of the Lord that he should ^dflee out of the ^eland of ^fNephi, and as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord should also ^gdepart out of the land with him, into the wilderness—

13 And it came to pass that he did according as the Lord had commanded him. And they departed out of the land into the wilderness, as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord;

And then later Zeniff returns (Mosiah 9) "having had a knowledge of the land of Nephi, or of the land of our fathers’ first inheritance". He was familiar with the land of Nephi because he was "sent as a spy among the Lamanites". Eventually he and his people settled in the city of Lehi-Nephi. The Nephite people that Mosiah (1) fled seem to have disappeared completely from the land.

[Carborendum]

20 hours ago, askandanswer said:

How accurate do you think this verse is?

Could you elaborate on the question?

It is scripture.  So, it should be accurate.  But the fact that you're asking indicates that you believe it is not.  So, what inaccuracies do you see in it?

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Could you elaborate on the question?

It is scripture.  So, it should be accurate.  But the fact that you're asking indicates that you believe it is not.  So, what inaccuracies do you see in it?

I'm curious about the use of the word threaten in that verse. It has a similar, but not identical meaning to warn, or counsel, or advise. I can imagine President Nelson, or President Monson warning the church, or the world, but I would it harder to imagine them saying that God is threatening us. The motives behind a threat are often quite different from the motives behind a warning. So in this particular instance, my thoughts about the accuracy of this scripture arise from the possibility that God's prophets were warning, not threatening, the people. 

[Vort]

13 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm curious about the use of the word threaten in that verse. It has a similar, but not identical meaning to warn, or counsel, or advise. I can imagine President Nelson, or President Monson warning the church, or the world, but I would it harder to imagine them saying that God is threatening us. The motives behind a threat are often quite different from the motives behind a warning. So in this particular instance, my thoughts about the accuracy of this scripture arise from the possibility that God's prophets were warning, not threatening, the people. 

What would a prophetic warning of divine destruction sound like?

What would a prophetic threat of divine destruction sound like?

I think the two are synonymous.

[askandanswer]

33 minutes ago, Vort said:

What would a prophetic warning of divine destruction sound like?

What would a prophetic threat of divine destruction sound like?

I think the two are synonymous.

Advice, counsel, suggestions, recommendations, instructions, directions, warnings, threats, they all have some overlap in their meanings in that they are statements that invite action, but in this instance, it says the people were threatened, not warned, or counselled or advised or recommended or instructed or suggested. I can more easily picture the Saviour and His prophets pleading with me to take advantage of the atonement than I can picture them threatening me about the consequences if I don't. So when I see some about the prophets threatening the Lord's people, it makes me curious. 

[zil2]

I'm not sure how a threat from a prophet would be worded differently than a warning from a prophet.  I think they might sound the same, unless they actually used the word "threat" or "warning".  I expect "threaten" was Jarom's interpretation of what he heard - perhaps he didn't believe in mollycoddling...

[Vort]

45 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Advice, counsel, suggestions, recommendations, instructions, directions, warnings, threats, they all have some overlap in their meanings in that they are statements that invite action, but in this instance, it says the people were threatened, not warned, or counselled or advised or recommended or instructed or suggested. I can more easily picture the Saviour and His prophets pleading with me to take advantage of the atonement than I can picture them threatening me about the consequences if I don't. So when I see some about the prophets threatening the Lord's people, it makes me curious. 

I think of Abinadi, threatening the Nephite people with a curse if they don't repent. I think of Abinadi returning a few years later, informing the Nephites that they were now under the curse, and if they didn't repent they would be wiped out. I think of Moses' admonitions to the wicked children of Israel, and of the destructions that visited them in their wickedness. I think of Jeremiah raising a voice of warning; surely Jeremiah's proclamations could not be distinguished from threats. I think of the Lord in his mortal sojourn, telling/warning/threatening the people that they would flee before their pursuers, and wo be in that day unto those who give suck. I think of the risen Lord chastising Joseph for his foolish obstinacy in the Martin Harris affair with pages from his precious translation, which sounds to me like a threat.

When I look up the Oxford definition of "threat", it sounds exactly like what the Lord has done through the ages. He warns of calamities that will visit the wicked. How is that not a threat? I believe I understand the nuance you're getting at, but in the end I don't think it's much of an argument. God warns the wicked and calls them to repentance. Is that a threat? Well, yes, it is, if you don't repent. I think that's the point.

[Vort]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:42 PM, askandanswer said:

they should be ^adestroyed from off the face of the land.

Let me add one more thought. I think the word "destroyed" is giving you problems. Consider 1 Nephi 17:29-31.

Yea, and ye also know that Moses, by his word according to the power of God which was in him, smote the rock, and there came forth water, that the children of Israel might quench their thirst. And notwithstanding they being led, the Lord their God, their Redeemer, going before them, leading them by day and giving light unto them by night, and doing all things for them which were expedient for man to receive, they hardened their hearts and blinded their minds, and reviled against Moses and against the true and living God. And it came to pass that according to his word he did destroy them; and according to his word he did lead them; and according to his word he did do all things for them; and there was not any thing done save it were by his word.

Please note that the destruction of the children of Israel did not (in this case) mean their utter extermination. Destruction here means being undone as a people, uprooted and chased away, something like that. Also, please note that this prophecy was fulfilled to the letter, not at the destruction of the Nephite nation a thousand or so years after Lehi's journey, but much earlier. As you pointed out, Jarom reports that the people were threatened with destruction, and in verse 12 reports that they were kept from destruction by the diligent labors of the prophets, priests, and teachers. But only two generations later (Omni 5), "the more wicked part of the Nephites were destroyed." This destruction took place probably 150 years or so after Lehi left Jerusalem. This would have been something around 50 years after Jarom's time. So the prophecy was fulfilled, not immediately, but within a few generations.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Vort

[Carborendum]

On 6/30/2023 at 5:23 PM, Vort said:

What would a prophetic warning of divine destruction sound like?

What would a prophetic threat of divine destruction sound like?

I think the two are synonymous.

On 6/30/2023 at 6:04 PM, askandanswer said:

I can more easily picture the Saviour and His prophets pleading with me to take advantage of the atonement than I can picture them threatening me about the consequences if I don't. So when I see some about the prophets threatening the Lord's people, it makes me curious. 

23 hours ago, zil2 said:

I'm not sure how a threat from a prophet would be worded differently than a warning from a prophet.  I think they might sound the same, unless they actually used the word "threat" or "warning".  I expect "threaten" was Jarom's interpretation of what he heard - perhaps he didn't believe in mollycoddling...

Etymology: A threat includes a sense of menacing.  It is to put the fear of God into them.  There is a reason we have such a phrase in religious speech as well as common speech.

It would be an error to believe that God never does this.  Just as a parent may teach, expound, exhort, plead, warn...etc... they will also threaten.  If you've never threatened your kids in raising them, then you either had such good kids that they never needed it, or you weren't parenting properly.

True, it isn't the first tool in the toolbox.  It is usually a last resort.  But when Sodom and Gomorrah were completely destroyed, killing every man, woman, and child, do you honestly believe that God doesn't use such tools?  Or do you believe the destruction of the Cities of the Plains was just figurative?  

Or, how about the poor sot who put forth his hand to steady the ark?

Edited July 1, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

Instances of "threat" in scriptures:

I had to include non-KJV translations of the Bible because the KJV doesn't use it much.  Synonyms were more often used.  And if we remove the instances of mortals threatening and look only for instances where the Lord "threatened"...

 -- And this is the proof I give you,’ says the LORD, ‘that all I have threatened will happen to you and that I will punish you here.
     Jer 44:29 (seven translations use the word "threat".)

-- But just as every good thing the LORD your God promised you has come to pass, likewise the LORD will bring upon you the calamity He has threatened, until He has destroyed you from this good land He has given you.
   Josh 23:15 (9 translations)

--I am going to carry out all my threats against Eli and his family, from beginning to end.
   1 Sam 3:12 (2 translations -  but it is pretty clear that the meaning was the same in virtually every translation)

--And they will know that I am the LORD; I did not threaten in vain to bring this calamity on them.
   Ezek 6:10 (10 translations).

So, yes, the Lord threatens when His children have gone too far.  

People don't seem to understand that when a child goes running out into the street, there is no time for gentle persuasion.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Carborendum