Miss Netherlands

[mikbone]

The Netherlands are well known for their beautiful women.  

Hard to believe that their most beautiful woman this year is actually a dude.

I’m so ready for this trend to stop.

[mikbone]

Also, I keep getting the Netherlands confused with the Dutch and Holland.

[scottyg]

Those girls are all smiling and clapping for him...no pushback at all that I've heard. This is what they asked for, so this is what they get. Feminists never cared about women's rights...it was all about power and exerting influence, just like the blm movement.

[Carborendum]

I've got an outside-the-box critique of this:

Yes, I know, this is really about wokeness gone too far.  But I see something more subtle that is really a crack at women in general.

It seems to say that surgery and makeup do so much that even a man can be made into a beautiful woman.  So, don't bother thinking that physical beauty is anything to be proud of.

I disagree with that comment.  But I do believe that is a subliminal message that is being sent out there.

EDIT: I changed my mind.  I thought that the image above was just a bad picture.  I've looked at a bunch of other pictures to see what he "really" looked like.  He's not that "pretty".  How on earth?

I guess it's really telling all the beautiful women out there that there's nothing they can do to compete with men.  Men will always win... even in a women's beauty pageant.

How demoralizing can you get?

EDIT-EDIT: I just looked at images of previous Miss Nederland winners.  I was surprised.  The few black winners were somewhat attractive.  All the white girls were not any more attractive than this guy.  No wonder he won.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Carborendum

[Traveler]

Dare I say this?  But before I do I realize that agency is the prime directive of G-d.  I just find it odd that it is socially unacceptable in certain circles to have a black woman on a syrup bottle but perfectly acceptable in the same circles to put a fake woman on a beer can.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I have been thinking about this thread and my thread concerning G-ds and heaven.  In both threads I have expressed my understanding of the importance of agency.  In this I would reference our 11th Article of Faith:

Quote

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Perhaps I could rephrase this slightly to address, according to my understanding, recent circumstance and situation: 

“We claim the privilege of thinking and believing all things and whatever things we wish according to our own conscience and desires (all of which we alone stand responsible for believing), and allow all others the same privilege, lit them believe however, wherever and whatever they may.  And that justice makes every person alone responsible for what they chose to believe.”

 

It is my personal belief that we all should not only have the right to believe whatever we wish but also ought to be able to express our beliefs without gas lighting or blaming others for our beliefs.  Even if we believe that the beliefs of others are foolish, stupid, ridiculous or utter and complete nonsense.

What no on has the right to do is; be or threaten violence against anyone for their beliefs – even if we think such beliefs are a threat to our own.  No one should ever threaten violence towards anyone else.  I would reference in scripture: Jude 1:9:

Quote

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

It is my understanding that the trans person that was presented on the beer can has left the USA because they feel they are in danger because of what they believe.  I believe that trans and many other “preserves” sex infatuations are sick and wrong but even worse is the sickness to threaten others for their safety.   Anger and the threats made in anger is – without question – the greatest of all sickness and wrongness and I believe the most sure sign that one is being influenced by Satan.  Much more than believing stupid, ridiculous and evil things.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

On 7/11/2023 at 8:05 PM, scottyg said:

Those girls are all smiling and clapping for him...no pushback at all that I've heard. This is what they asked for, so this is what they get. Feminists never cared about women's rights...it was all about power and exerting influence, just like the blm movement.

1000% correct. 

[EH12NG]

I would expect nothing less in the weird and wonderful era of the narcissist. 

They'll be assigning a gender to the moon in due course.  

[Guest Godless]

22 hours ago, EH12NG said:

They'll be assigning a gender to the moon in due course.  

The moon's gender is dependent on your cultural and linguistic background. In German, it is masculine, "der Mond". In the romance languages, it's feminine, "la Luna/Lune".  Luna is also the Latin word for the moon, named after the Roman moon goddess.  Speaking of goddesses, the ancient pagan traditions upon which modern Wicca and paganism are based all refer to the moon as feminine, a manifestation of the Triple Goddess.

So you see, the moon has already been gendered for centuries. At least in Europe. I'm regrettably ill-informed on lunar beliefs and traditions in other cultures. Something for me to work on.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Godless

[EH12NG]

4 minutes ago, Godless said:

The moon's gender is dependent on your cultural and linguistic background. In German, it is masculine, "der Mond". In the romance languages, it's feminine, "la Luna/Lune".  Luna is also the Latin word for the moon, named after the Roman moon goddess.  Speaking of goddesses, the ancient pagan traditions upon which modern Wicca and paganism are based all refer the moon as feminine, a manifestation of the Triple Goddess.

So you see, the moon has already been gendered for centuries. At least in Europe. I'm regrettably ill-informed on lunar beliefs and traditions in other cultures. Something for me to work on.

So does the moon have a vagina or not?

[Guest Godless]

21 minutes ago, EH12NG said:

So does the moon have a vagina or not?

I'm German, so no. 😜

If the moon has a vagina, then I suppose all three of my guitars do as well. And my bed, and my boss's motorcycle. Gendering inanimate objects is nothing new in Western culture, and it has nothing to do with genitalia.

[Carborendum]

8 hours ago, Godless said:

The moon's gender is dependent on your cultural and linguistic background. In German, it is masculine, "der Mond". In the romance languages, it's feminine, "la Luna/Lune".  Luna is also the Latin word for the moon, named after the Roman moon goddess.  Speaking of goddesses, the ancient pagan traditions upon which modern Wicca and paganism are based all refer to the moon as feminine, a manifestation of the Triple Goddess.

So you see, the moon has already been gendered for centuries. At least in Europe. I'm regrettably ill-informed on lunar beliefs and traditions in other cultures. Something for me to work on.

I was about to point out that in Greek it is "Diana" (feminine).  And according to mythology, all the gods and goddesses have "sexual organs".  But that is ancient mythology.  Again, evidence that the transgender movement is really a revival of outdated idolatry.

Romantic languages also follow such idolatrous origins.  But either you're saying that transgenderism is the revival of ancient idolatry, or you need to recognize that the masculine/feminine dichotomy of gendered language is purely a lingusitic quirk and it has nothing to do with people actually attributing male/female characteristics to the sun and moon.

Korean does not have gendered language.  But there is folklore about the sun and moon being brother and sister respectively.  However, I don't believe anyone actually attributes male/female characteristics to them.  It's just folklore.

[Guest Godless]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I was about to point out that in Greek it is "Diana" (feminine).  And according to mythology, all the gods and goddesses have "sexual organs".  But that is ancient mythology.  Again, evidence that the transgender movement is really a revival of outdated idolatry.

I'm an atheist, but given a choice between an isolationist nature-based religious tradition and an evangelical institution-based one, I think you can probably guess which one I'd prefer.

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Romantic languages also follow such idolatrous origins.  But either you're saying that transgenderism is the revival of ancient idolatry, or you need to recognize that the masculine/feminine dichotomy of gendered language is purely a lingusitic quirk and it has nothing to do with people actually attributing male/female characteristics to the sun and moon.

I don't know much about the history of transgenderism in pagan traditions, but I know that some of the Native American tribes recognize non-traditional gender dynamics.  Some tribes even view LGBTQ tribe members as more spiritually gifted than their straight/cis counterparts. 

But yes, gendered language is generally arbitrary and not indicative of clearly-defined gender roles. I just found it amusing that the example EH12 used was the moon, which DOES have deep-rooted feminine association in Western culture. 

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, Godless said:

the moon, which DOES have deep-rooted feminine association in Western culture. 

anciently, yes.  Modern times, no.  It has been associated with male traits (the old man in the moon) in more recent times.  See, the moon is gender fluid .

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, Godless said:

I don't know much about the history of transgenderism in pagan traditions, but I know that some of the Native American tribes recognize non-traditional gender dynamics.  Some tribes even view LGBTQ tribe members as more spiritually gifted than their straight/cis counterparts. 

It is actually a lot closer to what conservatives understand today rather than what liberals would have you believe.

The thing is that when you say that "sex" is different than "gender" most conservatives are right along with you.  We're well aware that we have behavioral/mental traits & tendencies (all the way from tomboys to lesbians to transgendered people).  This statement with clear definitions that are consistent with a clear understanding of biology is perfectly understandable.  It is when you take the next step and begin to conflate the two again that you lose us.

The argument comes when we then take these "separate" traits of sex and gender and begin to conflate them again.  But this sort of thing has happened in the transgender discourse. 

If all you're talking about is how you feel about yourself, fine. Call yourself a lego sports car for all I care.  But if you want me to agree with you or you get your feelings hurt because I choose to still call you human, then we have a problem.

But it's even worse than that.  Not only does a certain man want me to call him a woman, he also wants to be in women's sports, locker rooms, bathrooms, changing rooms, spas, etc.  He is now requiring other people to change their entire outlook on life to support that delusion.  Where does he get off telling me that I have to agree with his feelings as a definition of fact?

Men in men's prisons heard about the policy in New Jersey.  They declared themselves transgender and got shipped to women's prisons.  They then proceeded to threaten, coerce, assault, and rape every woman they were interested in.  And the women were often put in solitary as a result.  Not the men. The women who were the victims.

Those areas are based on SEX, not gender for a reason.  But they are forcing themselves into these areas because of "gender"?  NO.  That's not what they are for.  They are based on sex.  And there is the problem.  You've started the argument by saying sex and gender are different, then you want us to change our social order and all our processes and procedures which have always been based on sex, and expect everything to align with gender.

If liberals were actually consistent with the original premise that sex and gender are different, we would have a lot less of a problem here.

[Carborendum]

18 hours ago, Godless said:

I'm an atheist, but given a choice between an isolationist nature-based religious tradition and an evangelical institution-based one, I think you can probably guess which one I'd prefer.

Or...

Given a choice between (as you see it) a manmade religion from uneducated people from thousands of years ago who had no idea what science even means vs a man-made religion from people who grew up understanding the scientific method...

Yeah.  Atheism isn't all that science and real-life observation based, is it?

[Guest Godless]

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

anciently, yes.  Modern times, no.  It has been associated with male traits (the old man in the moon) in more recent times.  See, the moon is gender fluid .

There are at least 1-1.5 million Americans who follow modern neo-Pagan, Druid, and/or Wiccan traditions (that we know of; realistically, that number is probably considerably higher). The number of (again, known) pagans in the UK is over half the number of LDS.

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Or...

Given a choice between (as you see it) a manmade religion from uneducated people from thousands of years ago who had no idea what science even means vs a man-made religion from people who grew up understanding the scientific method...

Yeah.  Atheism isn't all that science and real-life observation based, is it?

The writers of the Bible understood the scientific method? 🤨

My studies of non-Abrahamic religions has led me the conclusion that some of the Eastern and Pagan lore is more in tune with actual natural laws than Judeo-Christian religions, and a lot of the beliefs aren't contradictory of natural laws and theories. That doesn't mean it makes rational sense. Just that, in my simpleton opinion, it makes more sense than Biblical discourse. And as an added bonus, no one's telling me to give them 10% of my income or dictating what I can and can't eat or who I can and can't love. So yes, hypothetically, I could see myself aligning more with paganism than Christianity.

[Vort]

10 minutes ago, Godless said:

or who I can and can't love

Yeah, it's tough when those bigots refuse to acknowledge your sacred love of a seven-year-old.

10 minutes ago, Godless said:

in my simpleton opinion

Appreciate the introspection.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Vort

[LDSGator]

12 hours ago, Godless said:

There are at least 1-1.5 million Americans who follow modern neo-Pagan, Druid, and/or Wiccan traditions (that we know of; realistically, that number is probably considerably higher). The number of (again, known) pagans in the UK is over half the number of LDS.

I was stunned by how few LDS are in the UK. Under 200,000? I thought that number was far higher. Out of those 200,000 how many are active? Wow!

 

Was anyone else surprised by this?

Edited July 18, 2023 by LDSGator

[Carborendum]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:38 PM, Guest Godless said:

The writers of the Bible understood the scientific method? 🤨

Don't put words into my mouth.

You believe that Joseph Smith made up the Mormon religion.  That was in the 1800s.  And he certainly couldn't have done it alone.  He surrounded himself with dozens of highly educated individuals from various fields of study.  So, yes, this religion is much more based in the knowledge of the modern sciences than any other.

[LDSGator]

42 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Don't put words into my mouth.

You believe that Joseph Smith made up the Mormon religion.  That was in the 1800s.  And he certainly couldn't have done it alone.  He surrounded himself with dozens of highly educated individuals from various fields of study.  So, yes, this religion is much more based in the knowledge of the modern sciences than any other.

He deleted his account so you are responding for no reason other than to get the last word.  Let it go. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by LDSGator

[EH12NG]

It's a shame the Godless one has left. Even if I found it odd that someone named Godless had to clarify their status as atheistic. I was looking forward to a discussion but hadn't gotten round to it thanks to an unruly puppy. 

It would appear that the majority of people in the Netherlands don't really care for the contest or its winner. Probably the best course of action for such an exercise in wow look at me antics. 

[Carborendum]

46 minutes ago, EH12NG said:

It would appear that the majority of people in the Netherlands don't really care for the contest or its winner. Probably the best course of action for such an exercise in wow look at me antics. 

I don't know how many people really cared at all in the US about the Miss USA pageant.  It tends to garner about 1% to 1.5% of the population in viewership.  And I have not had a single conversation about it with anyone IRL.

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, EH12NG said:

It's a shame the Godless one has left

Yup. We’re friends on FB. He’s doing fine right now, thank God. Just wanted to take a break. 

 

1 hour ago, EH12NG said:

unruly puppy. 

What kind of dog? 

[EH12NG]

12 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Yup. We’re friends on FB. He’s doing fine right now, thank God. Just wanted to take a break. 

 

What kind of dog? 

German Shepherd, Sable coated.