Cameras in classrooms and protecting the innocent

[Backroads]

My train of thought comes from the station inspired by this article of a Utah school board member getting into some trouble.  In all the various discussions I've had with other people on similar matters, I oft hear the suggestion to just stick cameras in the classroom, to which I am vehemently opposed.

Ms. Cline is, like most good people, against sexual harm toward young people. The world is certainly getting weird. In fact, I've had a few families hoping a charter school would solve all the evils-of-the-world problems freak out at our notice that one of the optional videos in our curriculum showed all sorts of different families and they were free to watch or skip as best they thought (this leads to another issue of Utah families failing to understand just how very much public and watched over Utah charter schools are by our free school choice law and aren't the "free private school" they tend to be in some other states).

But I get it. You're not in a good position to homeschool or attend private school, so you're hoping the local school will follow your values and stuff slips in. I'd like to say most teachers don't have the time to indoctrinate kids when they can't even get them to follow basic rules and can't even get through the curriculum, but stuff still happens. I argue it's not even close to a majority, but that doesn't change that one or other incident. You don't have the time, voice, or clout to make much of an impact on the school board, and other people are voicing their own opinions that you  may or may not agree with. 

You really are just stuck hoping for the best. You hear things, maybe even experience things, and you want what's best for your kids. So, cameras in the classroom. You have access to a live stream, you trust it will keep the teachers in line, and you get to know exactly what is going down.

Now, I'm currently teaching virtually and I record everything, but I hate the idea of classroom cameras. This absolutely includes selfish reasons: I don't do my best when I'm being observed and judged. This is likely something most teachers could eventually adjust to and take in stride. So, I suppose that excuse could be flung aside. There's also the idea of what the cameras will do. Perhaps high school is different, but in elementary kids are all over the place with this activity and that. They're not just sitting still. Perhaps there are camera options available, or we could revert to more lecture and worksheet-based teaching styles where kids remain in one spot. 

But I have other reasons that I think go against these parents' hope for safety.

1. Perhaps I've just had bad luck in this area, but every time I've had a parent observe the classroom, it has been to watch some other kid. And every time that kid has been one with special needs. One parent even went to the principal to demand a kid with level 1 autism (parent did not know the diagnosis, just thought this kid was weird) be removed from her daughter's classroom. I envision classroom cameras being used far too often to watch other kids.

2. On that same note, this will be a disaster for student privacy. Get someone good enough with a computer and they'll likely be able to get all sorts of student information. 

3. I've actually heard a few horror stories where classroom camera information has been used to create child pornography and this is my biggest reason of all. A live feed? How do you guarantee these feeds cannot be accessed? And what of the fellow parent pedophile who just hasn't been caught yet? 

I can't think of a camera set up that would 100% avoid students being on the feed. Why should any other parent (or hacker) have the right to watch any child they want? 

So, while I get the desire for parents to know exactly what is going on at all times, how does this prevent not just Big Brother development but actual child danger? 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Backroads

[Vort]

You make some compelling points. I haven't thought about this issue and have not developed any considered opinions. On the one hand, I distrust most teachers. On the other hand, I am uncomfortable with the idea of schoolchildren being continuously monitored, for reasons I can't seem to articulate very well at the moment. I monitor my own children, but somehow parental/guardian monitoring seems different from a cold, impersonal general monitor. Something about it just rubs me wrong. Maybe I'll give it some thought and see if I can't explain myself better.

[Backroads]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

but somehow parental/guardian monitoring seems different from a cold, impersonal general monitor.

I think I get what you mean. In some ways, it feels like a cop-out or a false sense of security.

[LDSGator]

Is someone watching the monitors 24/7 or they only active in case a parent accuses a teacher or another student of abuse? 
 

I’m not wild about the idea either. However if my kid was accused of assaulting another and the camera showed my kid wasn’t involved I’d praise the cameras for being there. 

[mirkwood]

Heh...I wear a bodycam on every call...

[LDSGator]

17 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Heh...I wear a bodycam on every call...

It protects you from some lady busted at a DUI who claims you assaulted her. Among other things. 
 

Can you turn yours off?

[Backroads]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

Is someone watching the monitors 24/7 or they only active in case a parent accuses a teacher or another student of abuse? 
 

I’m not wild about the idea either. However if my kid was accused of assaulting another and the camera showed my kid wasn’t involved I’d praise the cameras for being there. 

A lot of places have hallway cameras which are handy for fight cases.

The way I hear people wanting cameras is for a live feed to be viewed anytime.

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, Backroads said:

A lot of places have hallway cameras which are handy for fight cases.

The way I hear people wanting cameras is for a live feed to be viewed anytime.

It’s tough. For someone as opinionated as me I’m oddly back and forth on this. 

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

It protects you from some lady busted at a DUI who claims you assaulted her. Among other things. 
 

Can you turn yours off?

It is activated during any public contact.  I turn it off the rest of the time.

[mordorbund]

4 hours ago, mirkwood said:

It is activated during any public contact.  I turn it off the rest of the time.

Is it livestreamed for any curious looky-loo or crusader? Or is the data only retrieved for certain requests? (narrow FOIA, prosecuting/defense attorneys, professional audits/reviews)?

[mirkwood]

9 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Is it livestreamed for any curious looky-loo or crusader? Or is the data only retrieved for certain requests? (narrow FOIA, prosecuting/defense attorneys, professional audits/reviews)?

No live stream.  Subject to GRAMA etc.

[mordorbund]

12 hours ago, mirkwood said:

No live stream.  Subject to GRAMA etc.

@Backroads @Vort Would that alleviate your concerns if it wasn't a live feed? The video could be deleted after 4 years (not kept "forever" but long enough to see if there was a past history) and perhaps stored on local servers. It sounds like you've got a system for the hall cameras, would that be sufficient here too? Or are there problems with that system too?

This should also work for the parents requesting a live feed. The advantage of a live feed is that the teacher will know that at any time a parent can suddenly pop online and see what is being taught and how the class is disciplined. If there is a concern then they can request the recorded day or week and the district will have the chance to scrub the kid's faces first (or whatever else needs to happen to grant child anonymity -- but they cannot allow for clipping out segments of the video because that would just feed into the concerns).

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

@Backroads @Vort Would that alleviate your concerns if it wasn't a live feed?

Not sure. I don't yet understand the root of my own discomfort. It seems like the kind of thing I should like...but somehow I don't.

[Backroads]

2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

@Backroads @Vort Would that alleviate your concerns if it wasn't a live feed? The video could be deleted after 4 years (not kept "forever" but long enough to see if there was a past history) and perhaps stored on local servers. It sounds like you've got a system for the hall cameras, would that be sufficient here too? Or are there problems with that system too?

This should also work for the parents requesting a live feed. The advantage of a live feed is that the teacher will know that at any time a parent can suddenly pop online and see what is being taught and how the class is disciplined. If there is a concern then they can request the recorded day or week and the district will have the chance to scrub the kid's faces first (or whatever else needs to happen to grant child anonymity -- but they cannot allow for clipping out segments of the video because that would just feed into the concerns).

I think I would feel more comfortable if kids' faces could be scrubbed out, but I find myself doubtful if enough parents would settle for less than a live feed.

As for clipping things out, I could still see parents of certain special education students still demanding that (understandably, they don't want public record of their child's meltdown or medical episode).

My husband is on the other side of the fence than me, and made some good points, mainly around the idea that pornography and harassment issues are likely very low risk and parents with privacy concerns could simply petition for non-camera classrooms (every school could have a few).

Hallway cameras have been known to have their perks, and those tend to operate on a request basis.

[tomasgreenro]

On 7/17/2023 at 5:54 AM, mordorbund said:

@Backroads @Vort Would that alleviate your concerns if it wasn't a live feed? The video could be deleted after 4 years (not kept "forever" but long enough to see if there was a past history) and perhaps stored on local servers. It sounds like you've got a system for the hall cameras, would that be sufficient here too? Or are there problems with that system too?

This should also work for the parents requesting a live feed. The advantage of a live feed is that the teacher will know that at any time a parent can suddenly pop online and see what is being taught and how the class is disciplined. If there is a concern then they can request the recorded day or week and the district will have the chance to scrub the kid's faces first (or whatever else needs to happen to grant child anonymity -- but they cannot allow for clipping out segments of the video because that would just feed into the concerns).
Installing cameras may create a risk of misuse of information and violation of the privacy of children, especially those with special needs. There were no cameras at my school and everything seemed to be fine. How will children cheat (joke)? For example, I used an essay service before, I found https://ca.papersowl.com/ for this. I cheated just as often as many schoolchildren and students. I think the cameras are too much. Nobody likes being watched.

The idea is good, but the children will feel awkward knowing that they are being watched.

 

Edited Thursday at 09:53 AM by tomasgreenro

[Vort]

1 hour ago, tomasgreenro said:

The idea is good, but the children will feel awkward knowing that they are being watched.

Not sure how this is a negative. Let them feel awkward. Public school itself is hardly a natural thing.

On 7/15/2023 at 10:30 AM, Vort said:

You make some compelling points. I haven't thought about this issue and have not developed any considered opinions. On the one hand, I distrust most teachers. On the other hand, I am uncomfortable with the idea of schoolchildren being continuously monitored, for reasons I can't seem to articulate very well at the moment. I monitor my own children, but somehow parental/guardian monitoring seems different from a cold, impersonal general monitor. Something about it just rubs me wrong. Maybe I'll give it some thought and see if I can't explain myself better.

I think I have come around on this topic to approving of monitoring classes, as long as such monitoring is always freely available to parents as well as school staff. Much tomfoolery by both students and teachers could be avoided or at least recorded and addressed. legally or otherwise.

[LDSGator]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

 

I think I have come around on this topic to approving of monitoring classes, as long as such monitoring is always freely available to parents as well as school staff. Much tomfoolery by both students and teachers could be avoided or at least recorded and addressed. legally or otherwise.

That, and it’s like body cams for cops. It covers the teachers against being falsely accused. We have them everywhere but the bathrooms in the dojang. 

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

That, and it’s like body cams for cops. It covers the teachers against being falsely accused. We have them everywhere but the bathrooms in the dojang. 

I remember a follow-up study showed that precincts with body cameras had a decline in claims against police following the use of body cams. Commenters on one side claimed it was because civilians now knew their frivolous claims could be fact-checked. The other side said it was because now someone was watching the watchers. I shrug my shoulders and say, "Everyone is being polite, I don't see why we need to concern ourselves with past behavior".

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Everyone is being polite, I don't see why we need to concern ourselves with past behavior".

Totally agree. 

[mordorbund]

5 hours ago, tomasgreenro said:

The idea is good, but the children will feel awkward knowing that they are being watched.

 

Do they? All of their tests are monitored, is that awkward? All of their class time is supervised. Even at recess they know there's a limit to shenanigans (either extent, duration, or location) because teachers are present. Their activity on digital devices can be tracked by the teacher in class and by the district outside of class. Is this awkward for the students or do they just accept it as school culture?

[Traveler]

If I were king of the world and could dictate education – I would consider monitoring a false misleading issue.  The first thing I would do with education is make the teachers the highest paid individuals in the education system.  More than any administrator regardless of the level – especially at the college level.  However, the pay of teachers would be incentive based.  The more students that performed at grade level or better the more the teacher would be paid.  The teacher would have complete control over the classroom and curriculum methodology – also including if there is monitoring and if desired which students are monitored.   If a teacher did not want a student – no argument or discussion - the teacher could remove the student from the classroom at any time for any reason.  The one caveat would be that teachers could receive bonuses for dealing with previously determined problem students.

Second – I would do away with the letter grading system.  All subjects would be pass/fail.  However, grading would be with a caveat.  Advanced students could be placed (recommended by the teacher and accepted by the student) in advanced courses with a higher standard of passing.

Third - I would have uniforms for students according to their birth gender and grade or advanced placement.   In addition to uniforms – I would require uniform hair styles and grooming – advanced students and upper grades would have slight increases in freedoms for hair and grooming styles.

Fourth – Parents would have just enough control to remove their kid from any teacher’s class – but would require a teacher’s consent if requesting their child be in a specific class.  If a regular class could not be found for a specific (problem?) child – they would be assigned to specialized teachers for problem students.  During the time the children were in the specialized classes the parents would be required to either pay a monthly fee or provide service.  If necessary – by law – extreme problem students would be placed in 24/7 military schools.

I am thinking that I would give students in foster care to roll in specialized military schools (not the problem military schools) that would allow them to opt out of foster care.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

If I were king of the world

♫ I'll tell you what I'd do: I'd throw away the cars and the bars and the war, and I'd seek to establish normal marital intimacy with you.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

make the teachers the highest paid individuals in the education system

I'm okay with this, and even with raising teacher pay significantly, as long as regular principles of meritocracy are practiced. In other words, bad teachers are summarily and unapologetically booted. This will never, ever, ever happen in government-run schools with NEA-unionized teachers.

[Carborendum]

I realize that people want to encourage people to behave better by having cameras watching their every move.  There is wisdom in this.  But I see an unexpected consequence.

Children even early teens still don't have any idea about life. They're in the learning stages.  And while there need to be consequences for actions, I believe that the mob mentality that is rampant in this era (and, I'm sure many other periods in history) would want their pound of flesh if some stupid kid simply did something that was simply stupid.  And that kid would pay for the rest of his life for doing something stupid that stupid kids do, but often grow out of.

[Backroads]

On 5/7/2024 at 3:28 PM, tomasgreenro said:

The idea is good, but the children will feel awkward knowing that they are being watched.

 

I think that's something kids would adjust to.

The question is if we are okay with them being watched Big Brother style.

[Backroads]

On 5/8/2024 at 6:31 AM, Carborendum said:

I realize that people want to encourage people to behave better by having cameras watching their every move.  There is wisdom in this.  But I see an unexpected consequence.

Children even early teens still don't have any idea about life. They're in the learning stages.  And while there need to be consequences for actions, I believe that the mob mentality that is rampant in this era (and, I'm sure many other periods in history) would want their pound of flesh if some stupid kid simply did something that was simply stupid.  And that kid would pay for the rest of his life for doing something stupid that stupid kids do, but often grow out of.

Ooh, I definitely see mob mentality happening. I believe that the minor years are a nice time to, if one must, make all the mistakes without major consequences. But recordings could affect it.