LDS Opinion on Appropriate Missionary Behavior

[zil2]

20 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

It amazes me how each ward can be so different from the others. 

It would appear that this variation between wards is increasing.  While there can be ways in which this is good, obviously there are ways in which it can be very, very bad.  I expect we'll see both more variation (for some) and more unity (for others).  I have yet to be in a ward or branch that wasn't fundamentally exactly like all the others (and that includes 4 US states and Moscow, Russia - English-speaking branch).

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, Grunt said:

What would happen if he didn't sustain the Bishop or Stake President.   If, during his Temple Recommend interview, he answered positively to everything except that, then explained why?

If nothing else, it would initiate a potentially interesting discussion.  Were I going to do that, and I'm the sort of person who just might, I would go armed with the Family Proclamation and having dug up those scriptures (particularly from the New Testament) about leaders who aren't doing their duty.

My guess is that it would result in your temple recommend not being renewed - assuming the Bishop and Stake President support the ideas in question - that's not entirely clear to me.  (Really, nothing about this situation is entirely clear to me.  I'm not in favor of members "kicking people out of the Church" just because they suffer from sins, temptations, and weaknesses we don't like; but I'm also not in favor of tolerating or staying silent when members teach, promote, or "celebrate" things that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.)

[NeuroTypical]

3 hours ago, old said:

I think if this type of response had been the response given to myself and my family (wife + 5 kids) it is possible that we would still be attending LDS.

Do I understand correctly that, because you see the LDS church becoming more accepting/friendly of this stuff, that you and your entire family stopped going to church?

I'm interested - do you folks figure the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's church, led by Him and His Prophets?  Or do you figure something else?

(I've made a bit of a study over the decades on why folks lose their testimonies, and if y'all lost yours over this issue, it'll be the first time I've encountered such a story.)

 

 

20 hours ago, old said:

I feel more sadness that this is where our society and where LDS culture is at than anything.  Sexual/Romantic desire for the same-sex appears to be acceptable in LDS culture.  The only thing prohibited appears to be same-sex sexual activities.  I can not see how acceptance of that won't be far behind.

In related news: https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/vatican-issues-guidelines-for-same-sex-blessings-d3951c1d?mod=hp_lead_pos4 [bolding mine]:

Quote

The Vatican on Monday published guidelines for priests blessing same-sex relationships, permitting such ceremonies but stressing that they must not imply that the unions are the equivalent of heterosexual marriage.

The eight-page document from the Vatican’s doctrinal office confirms and elaborates on a letter by Pope Francis released in October, which ended the Vatican’s ban on blessing same-sex couples. The shift is the latest sign of the Catholic Church’s greater openness to LGBTQ people under Pope Francis and one that is likely to further disturb conservatives.

Catholic priests in some countries, such as Germany, were flouting the ban and calling for change. The pope’s letter and Monday’s guidelines supersede a 2021 Vatican statement that prohibited blessings for gay couples on the grounds that God “cannot bless sin.” 

Catholic clergy may “join in the prayer of those persons who, although in a union that cannot be compared in any way to a marriage, desire to entrust themselves to the Lord and his mercy, to invoke his help, and to be guided to a greater understanding of his plan of love and of truth,” said the document, signed by Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez, head of the doctrinal office.

 

11 years ago, I was arguing with an atheist online buddy about same sex marriage in my church.  He figured it was only a matter of time, as the practice was on the path to universal cultural acceptance.  In his mind, every organization must change to keep growth a possibility, so he was certain eventually we'd have some sort of revelation-or-other formalizing the practice - within 30 years.   I bet him no it wouldn't, and the loser has to put on a pink tutu and sing "I'm a little teapot".   

#CountdownTo2042

[LDSGator]

9 minutes ago, zil2 said:

It would appear that this variation between wards is increasing.  

I totally agree with you

 

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm interested - do you folks figure the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's church, led by Him and His Prophets?  Or do you figure something else?

I’m placing bets that within 25 years the right wing will leave the church over it’s “liberal” tendencies. We saw some of it happening during the pandemic when the church came out with their teachings on masks and vaccines. It was fascinating to me then, it’s fascinating to me now.
 

Those who scream at you to “Follow the prophet” don’t follow their own advice if the Prophet says something they disagree with.  

[Carborendum]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Do I understand correctly that, because you see the LDS church becoming more accepting/friendly of this stuff, that you and your entire family stopped going to church?

I'm interested - do you folks figure the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's church, led by Him and His Prophets?  Or do you figure something else?

(I've made a bit of a study over the decades on why folks lose their testimonies, and if y'all lost yours over this issue, it'll be the first time I've encountered such a story.)

I can't speak for @old.  But I'll speak for myself.  I wouldn't go so far as Old, for one ward going astray.  But I would do so if the Brethren did.

• We believe that the prophet and all the apostles are inspired by God.  Joseph Smith said that the "key that will never rust" is to follow the majority of the 12 and the records of the Church.  As such, when they say that there is a change in practice we abide by it.  This also includes a modification or change to doctrines and beliefs.
• The Church has to be centered on Christ.  If that center changes, there was nothing to the faith to begin with.
• Different denominations will say "this is Christ" or "here is Christ."  Lo here.  Lo there.  But what is Christ?  It is one thing to give it a name, it is another to give it a definition.
• Whatever Christ is or is not, the idea is that He will deliver us from evil/sin and open the path to heaven.
• What is heaven?  For us, the Celestial Kingdom is all about Eternal Marriage & Eternal Families.  Admit it or not, if sealing and eternal families are not part of the actual "core" (as Christ is) then it is pretty dang close.  So close, in fact, that the "records of the Church" (mentioned above) can only mean the records of ordinances.  And the most important ordinances of all, are those of sealing eternal families. 

You take eternal families out of our faith, then we're no different than any other Christian faith.  Take that out and what is wrong with going to any other orthodox faith?  There is no meaning or definition of our faith that provides anything different than any other Christian faith.  Only the power to seal families for eternity.  And as I stated earlier, the LGBT ideology is completely at odds with that doctrine.

So, if something so fundamental is being tampered with by the Brethren, then we have a problem.  I could not in all my soul go along with such a fundamental change unless I had a vision and theophany on the order of the First Vision.  It is simply too basic, too fundamental.

[zil2]

36 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’m placing bets that within 25 years the right wing will leave the church over it’s “liberal” tendencies. We saw some of it happening during the pandemic when the church came out with their teachings on masks and vaccines. It was fascinating to me then, it’s fascinating to me now.

I predict that between now and whenever the Lord comes again, people will leave the Church over right wing politics, left wing politics, to keep their jobs or their bank accounts, to keep their favorite sins, because the persecution is more than they can bear, because they are deceived, and for every other reason they can think of.  The only people who will stay will be the truly humble followers of Jesus Christ who are willing to give up everything for his name's sake.  I encourage everyone to get on the truly humble follower of Jesus Christ bandwagon and brace themselves to lose all for his name's sake.  (Then, if they don't have to lose all, hooray!  If they do lose all, hooray!)

 

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I predict that between now and whenever the Lord comes again, people will leave the Church over right wing politics, left wing politics, to keep their jobs or their bank accounts, to keep their favorite sins, because the persecution is more than they can bear, because they are deceived, and for every other reason they can think of.  The only people who will stay will be the truly humble followers of Jesus Christ who are willing to give up everything for his name's sake.  I encourage everyone to get on the truly humble follower of Jesus Christ bandwagon and brace themselves to lose all for his name's sake.  (Then, if they don't have to lose all, hooray!  If they do lose all, hooray!)

 

A former bishop said it best. Paraphrasing, but at the end of the day we’ll be shocked who hasn’t achieved eternal glory-but we’ll be really shocked to see who has.  

[Grunt]

8 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I predict that between now and whenever the Lord comes again, people will leave the Church over right wing politics, left wing politics, to keep their jobs or their bank accounts, to keep their favorite sins, because the persecution is more than they can bear, because they are deceived, and for every other reason they can think of.  The only people who will stay will be the truly humble followers of Jesus Christ who are willing to give up everything for his name's sake.  I encourage everyone to get on the truly humble follower of Jesus Christ bandwagon and brace themselves to lose all for his name's sake.  (Then, if they don't have to lose all, hooray!  If they do lose all, hooray!)

 

100%.  Oddly, it's those who don't even attempt to keep their covenants, or have never made them, that seem to be the most vocal about the Church and those in it who are just trying to find their way.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Grunt

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

bet him no it wouldn't, and the loser has to put on a pink tutu and sing "I'm a little teapot". 

Dude whenever I make bets with my friends I make them donate to political causes they hate. It’s delicious to make your socialist friend donate to the Ayn Rand Institute!  

[old]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

What would happen if he didn't sustain the Bishop or Stake President.   If, during his Temple Recommend interview, he answered positively to everything except that, then explained why?

Oh we found out.  There is more to this story that I am currently telling. My wife was going into the young woman's class to observe what was being taught to our daughter.  Observe.

Because she said it is my right as a mother to sit in this class and observe what is being taught to my daughter on Sunday at Church, the YW President and YW Counselor verbally berated her multiple times in front of the other YW.  When she did not relent; the YW President, in the presence of the YW Stake President in the room with the other young women stood up, said my wife was making everyone uncomfortable and all the young women who wished to leave the room should get up and walk out.

The YW President with 8-9 other young women, stood up and walked out of the room, leaving my wife and our daughter and one/two other YW in the room.  When the other YW came back one of them told my daughter "just so you know, this isn't about you".  My daughter cried multiple times during these episodes.

I talked to the Bishop about this.  He was unwilling to listen to our concerns of what was being taught.  He wanted my wife to immediately stop going in.  To his credit, he said he would start observing the class himself every Sunday.  So that was okay.  Unfortunately due to this toxic behavior, my daughter wanted nothing to do with this class and we stopped going on the Sundays of youth classes.  This went on for several months.  

A new YW councilor was called and she reached out to us and so we decided that maybe we should give it another go.  The Bishop by this time had stopped going into the YW classes.  The idea and plan was-well if the toxicity has dropped and the leaders can at least be civil with my wife and at least attempt to have an olive leaf with repeated action than maybe we can feel comfortable.

We expressed to the Bishop multiple times-we want and desire to feel comfortable with the YW president; we aren't there, help us get there.

So we attended the next Sunday with the YW President; it was really nice that Sunday.  The YW president had a very nice presentation laid out of healing and all the kids and everyone knelt down said a prayer on Sunday to help heal the individuals (my wife present, my daughter).  It was really good.  We thought, okay, this is a great step-let's keep going down this route and it will be good.

My wife then attended the YW activity on Wed. again observe & help out if needed.  All good.

On the way home, she received an unsolicited text from the YW councilor who had attended that evening telling my wife she was:

"the devil in sheep's clothing"

"makes her want to vomit"

"the only problem in her life for the last 9 months"

"ruined a special place for our daughter"

"if we don't like the doctrine they are teaching she should find another church" (my wife had brought up a concern to the YW President about the YW wearing booty shorts & gym shorts to YW activities).

We showed the text to the Bishop and his response was a smirk (effectively like a, well you deserved it).  There was absolutely 0 "oh that's horrible, I'm sorry, that should never happen".  It was well everyone is dealing with stuff in their life.

The next Sunday was Ward Conference. I had told the Bishop previously that this was a problem and that I nor my wife could in good conscience sustain the YW Presidency.  It is completely inappropriate for a leader of youth to say such vile things to a parent of youth.  That was the entire reasoning for the not sustaining (we had sustained previously).  It was actually quite hilarious what happened during the sustainings for WC.

Ward Conference comes and let's just say it went down like a lead balloon. It is my recollection that for Ward Conference they sustain all the auxiliaries by group.  RS, then SS, then YW, then etc. etc. etc. It's possible that protocol has changed officially; however for this sustaining they lumped all the groups together; including the Bishopric IIRC.  We only wanted to oppose the YW presidency-so b/c they lumped them all together I literally had to stand and verbally say "only the YW Presidency". We had no intention of opposing the Bishop nor anyone else.

The SP was there and effectively from the pulpit read us the riot act for opposing (he didn't call us out by name-but it was pretty obvious who the message was directed to). Normally they pull people aside immediately; we weren't talked to by the Bishop until that Thursday.

We had one or two evening discussions with the Bishop and he point blank told my wife that if she ever step foot in a YW activity again without being invited in-he would issue a verbal warning and then would obtain a restraining order on my wife.  That was the last time my wife step foot in an LDS church.

During any of these discussion, no one pointed to any unChristian behavior that my wife had done, any foul words, any foul actions (there were none). She was simply observing . . .being present.  Still 10 months later it boggles my mind what happened.

And this isn't some liberal bastian.  It is a rural area in one of the rubiest of red conservative states in the US.

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, old said:

Oh we found out.  There is more to this story that I am currently telling. My wife was going into the young woman's class to observe what was being taught to our daughter.  Observe.

Because she said it is my right as a mother to sit in this class and observe what is being taught to my daughter on Sunday at Church, the YW President and YW Counselor verbally berated her multiple times in front of the other YW.  When she did not relent; the YW President, in the presence of the YW Stake President in the room with the other young women stood up, said my wife was making everyone uncomfortable and all the young women who wished to leave the room should get up and walk out.

The YW President with 8-9 other young women, stood up and walked out of the room, leaving my wife and our daughter and one/two other YW in the room.  When the other YW came back one of them told my daughter "just so you know, this isn't about you".  My daughter cried multiple times during these episodes.

I talked to the Bishop about this.  He was unwilling to listen to our concerns of what was being taught.  He wanted my wife to immediately stop going in.  To his credit, he said he would start observing the class himself every Sunday.  So that was okay.  Unfortunately due to this toxic behavior, my daughter wanted nothing to do with this class and we stopped going on the Sundays of youth classes.  This went on for several months.  

A new YW councilor was called and she reached out to us and so we decided that maybe we should give it another go.  The Bishop by this time had stopped going into the YW classes.  The idea and plan was-well if the toxicity has dropped and the leaders can at least be civil with my wife and at least attempt to have an olive leaf with repeated action than maybe we can feel comfortable.

We expressed to the Bishop multiple times-we want and desire to feel comfortable with the YW president; we aren't there, help us get there.

So we attended the next Sunday with the YW President; it was really nice that Sunday.  The YW president had a very nice presentation laid out of healing and all the kids and everyone knelt down said a prayer on Sunday to help heal the individuals (my wife present, my daughter).  It was really good.  We thought, okay, this is a great step-let's keep going down this route and it will be good.

My wife then attended the YW activity on Wed. again observe & help out if needed.  All good.

On the way home, she received an unsolicited text from the YW councilor who had attended that evening telling my wife she was:

"the devil in sheep's clothing"

"makes her want to vomit"

"the only problem in her life for the last 9 months"

"ruined a special place for our daughter"

"if we don't like the doctrine they are teaching she should find another church" (my wife had brought up a concern to the YW President about the YW wearing booty shorts & gym shorts to YW activities).

We showed the text to the Bishop and his response was a smirk (effectively like a, well you deserved it).  There was absolutely 0 "oh that's horrible, I'm sorry, that should never happen".  It was well everyone is dealing with stuff in their life.

The next Sunday was Ward Conference. I had told the Bishop previously that this was a problem and that I nor my wife could in good conscience sustain the YW Presidency.  It is completely inappropriate for a leader of youth to say such vile things to a parent of youth.  That was the entire reasoning for the not sustaining (we had sustained previously).  It was actually quite hilarious what happened during the sustainings for WC.

Ward Conference comes and let's just say it went down like a lead balloon. It is my recollection that for Ward Conference they sustain all the auxiliaries by group.  RS, then SS, then YW, then etc. etc. etc. It's possible that protocol has changed officially; however for this sustaining they lumped all the groups together; including the Bishopric IIRC.  We only wanted to oppose the YW presidency-so b/c they lumped them all together I literally had to stand and verbally say "only the YW Presidency". We had no intention of opposing the Bishop nor anyone else.

The SP was there and effectively from the pulpit read us the riot act for opposing (he didn't call us out by name-but it was pretty obvious who the message was directed to). Normally they pull people aside immediately; we weren't talked to by the Bishop until that Thursday.

We had one or two evening discussions with the Bishop and he point blank told my wife that if she ever step foot in a YW activity again without being invited in-he would issue a verbal warning and then would obtain a restraining order on my wife.  That was the last time my wife step foot in an LDS church.

During any of these discussion, no one pointed to any unChristian behavior that my wife had done, any foul words, any foul actions (there were none). She was simply observing . . .being present.  Still 10 months later it boggles my mind what happened.

And this isn't some liberal bastian.  It is a rural area in one of the rubiest of red conservative states in the US.

Dude I am so sorry this is happening to you. I have no advice, just know I’m praying for you and your family. 

[old]

4 hours ago, zil2 said:

@old, I'm sorry the Stake in your area appears to have gone so far astray.  I hope the Area Presidency are able to bring it back into line with what it should be.  I'm glad you've been able to find relief elsewhere, but I hope you realize that there's no more salvation in an Orthodox parish as there is in an LDS ward gone astray - possibly less: the Orthodox parish cannot maintain your temple recommend to allow you to worship there.  Its sacrament has no power or authority.  And I am of the opinion that even if those administering the sacrament in your ward are unworthy, only they will be condemned for it, not those who worthily partake.

I don't know what counsel to give you except to move if you can.  Not every ward or stake in the Church is how you describe.  I would not let a ward-gone-off-the-rails kick me out of the Church.  My God bless and guide your family.

I very much appreciate your comment.  I very much wanted to keep fighting and to not allow the ward or stake to kick me/us out.  However, there came a moment when I looked around and saw the emotional and spiritual damage that was being done and realized that if I kept going the damage was going to be even greater.

My oldest son currently waffles between believing in God and not.  My daughter-the one who was so horribly treated has pretty much recovered. It has taken 10 months. For the first couple of months I took a temperature asking everyone how they felt about going to Church (any Church!) on Sunday on a scale 1-10.  For the first bit, it was -1, -3, -2, 0.  Thankfully, over time it recovered and the last time it was 7, 8, 9.

[old]

5 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Dude I am so sorry this is happening to you. I have no advice, just know I’m praying for you and your family. 

Thank you sir.

[Carborendum]

14 minutes ago, old said:

Ward Conference comes and let's just say it went down like a lead balloon. 

As I said, I don't blame you.  I still disagree (as I said about the Brethren vs a single ward, or possibly a stake).  But if there really is no option to keep your children safe from such apostasy, I would probably do the same thing.

14 minutes ago, old said:

And this isn't some liberal bastian.  It is a rural area in one of the rubiest of red conservative states in the US.

That is interesting.  I have heard of some governmental episodes like that in a red state's rural area.  But it is an absolute shame when this is coming from Saints who have agreed to abide by the Law of Chastity and claim to revere the family as the fundamental and most important unit of society. 

That's just a dang shame.  BTW, a former forum member (Anatess) had similar experiences in her ward and stake.  And she lives in Florida.  They're certainly struggling.

I don't know if moving is even an option for you.  But some part of me believes that your faith in the gospel and of the covenants you've made are still there.  You're just in a situation that prevents you from worshipping the way the ward should be worshipping.  If there is any way for you to do that...

Otherwise, staying in the wilderness may be your only option.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Carborendum

[JohnsonJones]

17 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Do I understand correctly that, because you see the LDS church becoming more accepting/friendly of this stuff, that you and your entire family stopped going to church?

I'm interested - do you folks figure the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's church, led by Him and His Prophets?  Or do you figure something else?

(I've made a bit of a study over the decades on why folks lose their testimonies, and if y'all lost yours over this issue, it'll be the first time I've encountered such a story.)

I've seen it.

I'd give examples of it, but I don't think it would be very faith promoting or useful to do so in this thread currently.

However, I've seen this and similar items be an issue in the past decade with several members.

It could be something that could be discussed in another thread, but I don't think it will help anything to talk about it in depth in this thread, at least from me.

[JohnsonJones]

16 hours ago, old said:

I very much appreciate your comment.  I very much wanted to keep fighting and to not allow the ward or stake to kick me/us out.  However, there came a moment when I looked around and saw the emotional and spiritual damage that was being done and realized that if I kept going the damage was going to be even greater.

My oldest son currently waffles between believing in God and not.  My daughter-the one who was so horribly treated has pretty much recovered. It has taken 10 months. For the first couple of months I took a temperature asking everyone how they felt about going to Church (any Church!) on Sunday on a scale 1-10.  For the first bit, it was -1, -3, -2, 0.  Thankfully, over time it recovered and the last time it was 7, 8, 9.

There is something I tell individuals (not that it helps, but I try) in situations similar to these.  Sometimes you need to have a testimony of the gospel, but not necessarily the church.  What I mean, is the church in this would mean the leaders and individuals who are in it.  Leaders and individuals are flawed and still human.  The gospel is our path to exaltation.

I have heard someone say, for a church that teaches all about eternal families, it's not that family focused.  Many wards, instead of trying to involve families try to EXCLUDE families.  Thus, instead of inviting all father's to come with sons on camps, and mothers to come with daughters to camps, they try to exclude parents from their children.  Instead of allowing parents to be involved with the children's religious education at church, they exclude them.  They send parents one way, and try to send kids another.

In today's society (this is even more true in the East, meaning parts of Asia), organizations that do NOT explicitly have instructions to include parents when having youth organizations are inherently mistrusted.  This is a problem that is also occurring in the public school system in the United States in some areas (and why parents are having real troubles with public education at times).  Some parents choose to take children out of school because of things such as this.

In an ideal world we would have it explicitly stated in the Handbook of instructions that parents can be involved with their children in church in all situations.  This would also help safeguard the church against lawsuits to a greater degree than it has now (though it may also open it up to lawsuits as well, but probably to a LESSER degree than it is open to them in it's current handling of youth and children.  I expect in one or two decades the church is going to have a situation similar to what the BSA just went though with abuses and lawsuits en masse).

When I was a church leader I invited parents to be involved with whatever their children were doing regardless of calling.  I am no longer a leader, but I have seen a similar openness in our area currently (at least for now).

It can be difficult when a ward or stake is not as open to allowing parents to oversee their children.  I would say to stand firm and make it known that your children are YOUR children, not theirs.  Be strict and stand your ground.

I know it is hard, but I would invite you to go and attend church again.  Even if it is only for sacrament, renewing our covenants is a special and important part of our lives.  When you stop attending the church, even if your own testimony is strong, it can lead your children down other paths.  The church is a vessel that carries the covenants of salvation and exaltation.  Many of us hope that our children will go to the Celestial Kingdom with us and their families will also be there (and so on and so forth).  This is made possible through the covenants that are only available through the Church itself.  This is the reason to attend and to inspire our children to at least obtain these covenants. 

That said, be firm and stick with your children.  If you need to attend their classes, attend their classes and activities.  Remind those in charge that it is YOUR children, not theirs, and YOU are there to make sure abuses do NOT occur.  That they have done NOTHING to build your trust in them, and until they do, and you trust them, you will KEEP on sticking with your children.  If you cannot attend youth classes and activities, then at least go to sacrament. 

I know it can be hard in today's church at times.  I am an imperfect individual and I know there are those who probably have serious problems with me as well.  When I was a Church leader there were probably those who disliked things I did.  That is okay.  I know I am imperfect and they shouldn't follow me.  They should follow the Lord and his gospel.  That's what it's all about in the end I think, following the Lord and keeping his commandments. 

[zil2]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I've seen it.

I'd give examples of it, but I don't think it would be very faith promoting or useful to do so in this thread currently.

However, I've seen this and similar items be an issue in the past decade with several members.

It could be something that could be discussed in another thread, but I don't think it will help anything to talk about it in depth in this thread, at least from me.

Would that members would stay and be the faithful resistance.  If not strong enough for that, would that they make the sacrifice, with faith, of finding and then moving to a place where the saints were faithfully striving to follow the Lord (even if that exercise takes years of searching and planning).  If those who believe in the doctrine (?) just leave the Church (don't understand how such a person could, but that doesn't mean they can't), that doesn't help anyone but Satan.

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Sometimes you need to have a testimony of the gospel, but not necessarily the church.  What I mean, is the church in this would mean the leaders and individuals who are in it.  Leaders and individuals are flawed and still human. 

There's the gospel, there's the Church, and there are the people in the Church.  The first two require your testimony, the last of the three are flawed and you shouldn't put faith in them, though we are obligated to sustain our leaders unless they are leading the members astray.

The Church is where the priesthood, keys, ordinances, and covenants reside.  You cannot get these anywhere else and these are critical parts of Christ's teachings and gospel - were they not, why should He have restored the Church?  Go away from the Church and soon enough your faith in the restored gospel, in prophets and apostles, in the Book of Mormon will start to dwindle.  I'm sure one can delay this by daily study in the Book of Mormon and General Conference talks, and with sincere fasting and prayer.  One can continue in the home to use the Come, Follow Me and other programs (freely available to all on the web and in apps).  But eventually, you will lose temple access, and that will hurt.  Eventually, being unable to partake of the sacrament will hurt.

Were it me suffering the persecution described, I would first do all that I described above, without leaving the Church - fasting, prayer, repentance, daily time in the Book of Mormon, GC, bearing testimony (nothing like bearing testimony to bring the Spirit), and as much time in the temple as I could manage.  I would do all that to strengthen and humble¹ myself and my family and to receive direction from the Lord.  I would try to open my heart to every possibility so that I could receive that direction.  Then I'd do as the Lord instructed, or my best judgement until he instructed.

¹One thing that has stood out from this round of studying the Book of Mormon with Jamie is that when division began within the Church, the faithful were always humble and submitted to the persecution at first, until the leadership came in and set things right - or the Lamanites showed up to war.  Since the BofM is for us, I think we should try to follow every lesson therein.

But that's today me.  20-something me might well have gone inactive (or my stubborn streak might have kicked in and I might have gone up every fast Sunday and called everyone to repentance - heaven knows).

Edited December 19, 2023 by zil2

[The Folk Prophet]

38 minutes ago, zil2 said:

If those who believe in the doctrine (?) just leave the Church (don't understand how such a person could, but that doesn't mean they can't)

I'm well aware that some church leaders are flawed. Some are stupid. And some allow wrong things. But when someone starts claiming that they're the saintly innocent victim of the YW presidency, the bishopric, the Stake Presidency, etc. etc....

Really? The entire ward and stake are the ones in the wrong? Nothing else going on here? Just corrupt leaders?

Really?

And, of course, attending an Orthodox church isn't a red flag now at all, is it? That doesn't indicate anything at all, does it now? Or....

Maybe when something smells like fish, it's fish.

Edited December 19, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[zil2]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm well aware that some church leaders are flawed. Some are stupid. And some allow wrong things. But when someone starts claiming that they're the saintly innocent victim of the YW presidency, the bishopric, the Stake Presidency, etc. etc....

Really? The entire ward and stake is the one in the wrong? Nothing else going on here? Just corrupt leaders?

Really?

And, of course, attending an Orthodox church isn't a red flag now at all, is it? That doesn't indicate anything at all, does it now? Or....

Maybe when something smells like fish, it's fish.

Yeah, I don't know.  I mean, we're only getting one side here.  But I can also imagine that if a member of the SP is encouraging or celebrating SSA or gender identity changes over the pulpit, that would embolden any who are opposed to the Church's teachings on this issue and such people could quickly move to push their beliefs while they have the chance.  It does seem bizarre that there would only be one family resisting this...

I don't know what to make of it - it all sounds very extreme and strange.  So, I'm just saying how I would respond in a situation like that described.  Nothing more to go on...  Also, hence this bit:

43 minutes ago, zil2 said:

fasting, prayer, repentance, daily time in the Book of Mormon, GC, bearing testimony (nothing like bearing testimony to bring the Spirit), and as much time in the temple as I could manage.  I would do all that to strengthen and humble¹ myself and my family and to receive direction from the Lord.

...you gotta make sure you're not the problem.

[NeuroTypical]

20 hours ago, old said:

On the way home, she received an unsolicited text from the YW councilor who had attended that evening telling my wife she was:

"the devil in sheep's clothing"

"makes her want to vomit"

"the only problem in her life for the last 9 months"

"ruined a special place for our daughter"

"if we don't like the doctrine they are teaching she should find another church" (my wife had brought up a concern to the YW President about the YW wearing booty shorts & gym shorts to YW activities).

I simply don’t have enough information to make any sort of a righteous judgment here. This claim screams out, literally begs, for the other side to come and present their case.

It’s a pity we can’t summon people to the court of thirdhour to answer accusations leveled against them.  The folks in the story would either have a good defense, or they wouldn’t. And I have no way of knowing one way or the other which is correct.  

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, zil2 said:

...you gotta make sure you're not the problem.

And if someone is attending an Orthodox church in response...well guess what that indicates?

I would/could maybe sort of buy into the story if it wasn't for this fact.

[LDSGator]

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

summon people to the court of thirdhour to answer accusations leveled against them.

It’s good to keep some perspective here. Absolutely no one outside of the 20+ regular posters  cares what the jury of third hour says about them.  

Edited December 19, 2023 by LDSGator

[zil2]

40 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

And if someone is attending an Orthodox church in response...well guess what that indicates?

I would/could maybe sort of buy into the story if it wasn't for this fact.

I agree that it's so strange that it's hard to imagine.  But then, you and I are in high-density Zion where the house across the street might be in another stake.  My bishop has never threatened to take out a restraining order against me.  So, yeah, I just don't know.  A year ago, as long as this ward was in the lower 48, I would have volunteered to take a drive and see them for myself.  But Klaw has not yet learned to enjoy car rides, so that's out.

All we really know is that there's a lot more to this story.

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, zil2 said:

y bishop has never threatened to take out a restraining order against me.

He’s one of the few. 😉 

[The Folk Prophet]

29 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I agree that it's so strange that it's hard to imagine.  But then, you and I are in high-density Zion where the house across the street might be in another stake.  My bishop has never threatened to take out a restraining order against me.  So, yeah, I just don't know.  A year ago, as long as this ward was in the lower 48, I would have volunteered to take a drive and see them for myself.  But Klaw has not yet learned to enjoy car rides, so that's out.

All we really know is that there's a lot more to this story.

Right. What I'm really trying to suggest (as you have already stated in previous posts, but....probably nicer than how I would put it), is that no one with a solid testimony and faith in the gospel would EVER start attending an Orthodox church. That fact alone doesn't make me fully disbelieve that the SP, bishop, and YW presidency behaved exactly the way it was claimed they behaved. But it does make the story suspect.

I've had a lot of dealings with people who've gone inactive over the years. They always have similar sob stories. They've always been wronged by the church or members of the church or (most commonly) by the by leadership in the ward or stake. But despite the fact that said leadership is often no longer in the picture, and above-and-beyond extreme efforts have been made to show love, acceptance, kindness, etc., they are generally uninterested in returning. They claim members are too this, or too that, or behave this way or that way. And no matter how much that is or isn't true of the members in the new ward they've moved into..... well, you get my point.

I know that sometimes bishops or SPs or whoever are terrible. Sure. But the reality of that being the cause of someone going inactive is, in my experience, extremely unlikely. When a person is so offended by the church that they actually leave it, I have found, that it's usually the person who's got issues rather than the church.

Sure...this could be an outlier. This could be that rare exception... Except the attending the Orthodox church thing. That tells me point blank that this is not the exception. It's clear indication that there are testimony, faith, and understanding problems. Because no one who understands, believes in, and trusts what's important in the gospel would EVER abandon those things because some jerk leaders were jerks. Ever!

In point of fact, the very idea that "love and acceptance" of gay people being taught in YW is somehow more of a danger to one's children than going inactive and attending an Orthodox church is so ridiculous it's almost laughable.

If a YW leader is teaching things that aren't accurate it's pretty easy to sit down with your kid and explain to them that it isn't accurate and that not all leaders are perfect and sometimes people have some oddball approaches to the gospel.

But if you've gone inactive and started attending another faith..... what sort of message are you teaching then? What sort of lesson are your children taking away from that?

It's exposing one's children to SIGNIFICANTLY greater danger than some YW leader teaching that we have to love gay people and, perhaps, taking that a bit further on the progressive side of thinking than we're comfortable with.

I could go on and on, breaking down the story being told in great detail...but to what end? As has been pointed out, it's a one-sided story and we really don't know for sure. What I do know is going inactive and ESPECIALLY going to another covenant-less church is not the answer.

I don't have to deny the veracity of the story to draw this conclusion or make a judgement on the matter. I suspect the complete veracity of the story because of several red flags therein. But even were I to 100% accept its veracity, it doesn't change the fact that going inactive and then attending an Orthodox church instead is wildly off-based.

Edited December 19, 2023 by The Folk Prophet