I'm a Christian.

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, Maytoday said:

Sometimes I look back on these things and think how did these people ever hold a conversation with my social-skill less self. 

Nonetheless, let's see if I have learned anything in the past year. 

I suppose on a rational level, I would agree, yes. Most of what God says are him stating what he is going to do. However, I would also consider God to be omnipotent. And if God is all-powerful(and also not a liar), he will do what he says he will do. So what he says he will do will happen. And a prophecy is just saying that a specified thing will happen in the future.

 

If I am understanding this correctly, humankind was (or is?) in a sort of prototype testing in order to find what changes or modifications need to be made. The intention of the testing of inventions is to find the "bugs" per say, in order to prevent something from not working once it is released. This is because we, as flawed beings, will always have a problem in anything we create. We know, however, that "as your heavenly Father is perfect," and it is to my knowledge that a perfect being wouldn't make mistakes, so his creation would be perfect, not necessitating a probationary period.

As an engineer I see the creation taking place and before “releasing” what was initially done – G-d observes (tests) and declares or approves what was created.  I am thinking that if everything was perfect and did not need verification – why did G-d declare what was created, “good”?  Or in other words ready.  What other purpose could there be for that step?

It is my understanding that the ancient meaning of perfect is not that there was never anything to be improved upon – but rather it means completed.  Thus, the creations (and works) of G-d are complete and perfect – but only after He has finished his work with it.  For example, though G-d created man, we are not perfect yet because his “plan” for our creation is not yet completed. 

 

The Traveler

Edited May 29 by Traveler

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

We are talking about things that we really do not know much beyond faith in what we believe.

Understood.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

My conclusion is that everything was known – and I mean everything.

OK.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Isaiah tells us that G-d know everything from the beginning to the end.

Yep.  Doesn't necessarily mean that He shared it all with the rest of us - after all, we were children compared to Him, and perhaps not capable of understanding everything...  But, that's just a side note. I understand what you're saying.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Isaian also tells is that he makes everything known.

Ah, but does He make it known before hand, to everyone (involved), or just to His prophets / those who are listening?  Still, I understand.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I think we had to exercise our agency and agree and participate in G-d’s plan from the very beginning.

Agreed.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I think we knew every detail – even down to every insect bite. 

OK, now we're in the details I wanted!   I don't think I agree with this, but I understand it, which is all I'm after right now.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I believe G-d wants us to know precisely what we are getting into down to every detail.  It is Satan that wants us to flounder in ignorance.

OK. (And a little note to say I comprehend what you're saying about Lucifer and his plan. I think you've added more than what we find in scripture / the temple, but it all seems reasonable enough.)

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

There is one other detail in this plan that plays into all this.  It is the “veil of forgetfulness”.   This allows us to play out our mortal probation with faith rather than the knowledge we acquired in the pre-existence from interfering with the probation.  This veil of forgetfulness allows us to have trials without full responsibility that enables us to have the experience of failure without 100% of the responsibility for our failures so we can experience (through repentance) the mercy, forgiveness and atonement (kippur) of G-d through Christ.

Understood.  I know some on this board have rejected to the point your last sentence is leading to, but I don't find it objectionable.  I am wondering (as a retired software developer) how it is that we follow the test script when we don't remember the test script?  (I mean, if you expect your software testers to follow a script, they kinda need the script.)  Your theory proposes the formation of a script (so to speak) in pre-mortality, but then the execution of the script during mortality when we have no consciousness of the script.  Is it just hardwired into us and we're following it without realizing?  (None of that is my question, they just seem like obvious questions that naturally follow the proposed theory.)

Anyway, now we can move on to my next question (which I realized last night while failing to sleep needs to come before the "doozy").  The answers to above questions may answer this one, but I want to state it explicitly as it's required before we know whether the doozy is a doozy or a dud.

Can a person, during their mortality, depart from the script that was laid out during their pre-mortality?  If so, to what extent can they depart from the script?

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

Understood.

OK.

Yep.  Doesn't necessarily mean that He shared it all with the rest of us - after all, we were children compared to Him, and perhaps not capable of understanding everything...  But, that's just a side note. I understand what you're saying.

Ah, but does He make it known before hand, to everyone (involved), or just to His prophets / those who are listening?  Still, I understand.

Agreed.

OK, now we're in the details I wanted!   I don't think I agree with this, but I understand it, which is all I'm after right now.

OK. (And a little note to say I comprehend what you're saying about Lucifer and his plan. I think you've added more than what we find in scripture / the temple, but it all seems reasonable enough.)

Understood.  I know some on this board have rejected to the point your last sentence is leading to, but I don't find it objectionable.  I am wondering (as a retired software developer) how it is that we follow the test script when we don't remember the test script?  (I mean, if you expect your software testers to follow a script, they kinda need the script.)  Your theory proposes the formation of a script (so to speak) in pre-mortality, but then the execution of the script during mortality when we have no consciousness of the script.  Is it just hardwired into us and we're following it without realizing?  (None of that is my question, they just seem like obvious questions that naturally follow the proposed theory.)

Anyway, now we can move on to my next question (which I realized last night while failing to sleep needs to come before the "doozy").  The answers to above questions may answer this one, but I want to state it explicitly as it's required before we know whether the doozy is a doozy or a dud.

Can a person, during their mortality, depart from the script that was laid out during their pre-mortality?  If so, to what extent can they depart from the script?

Thanks I love your post:

Let me make a little analogy.  Let’s let one foot equal 1,000 years.  The earth or the creation of the earth according to the best scientific estimates is around 4.5 billion years old.  I am talking rough numbers now just so we can understand relationships in time and space.  Roughly, using our time and distance relationship amounts to just over 800 miles.  This is the little more than the distance from Salt Lake City to San Diego California.  Let’s say the average lifetime is about 75 years.  That is about an inch and a half.  Compared to a journey from Salt Lake City to San Diego and what could happen for 800 miles to keep you from reaching your destination – what would you expect in the last inch and a half to keep you from completing your goal?  We have been preparing a very long time for our mortal probation. 

The term you are using for our experiences in mortality are tests.  Let’s try another term and instead of tests – let’s call them trials.  If indeed we have agency – How can we have trials that are critical to our eternal destiny without any pre-existent idea what we are getting into in this mortal probation?  I have not talked to anyone in my entire life that thinks we get to pick our trials while in this mortal probation.  Especially the really difficult and challenging trials.  The only way I can conclude that we have agency, is if we exercised that agency to select or accept each and every trial we face in our mortal probation while we were in the pre-existence.

This is very simple to me.  We either are following G-d’s plan to have agency and accepted what would go on in our mortal probation or we are following Lucifer’s plan, and we are living out our mortal probation having not accepted through agency what is happening.

Now for your question.

All possibilities in the script everyone is given comes down to the final trial of death.  I realize a lot of individuals have tried to depart from this script but death always eventually happens.   My father use to say something to me when I was ready to quit and give up.  He would say that I could quit and give up if that was my choice but I would just get an incomplete on that trial and end up having to finish it in the next life.  In short, we cannot win, we cannot break even, and we cannot get out of the game.  It was our choice to experience mortal probation.

What we are doing is the follow-up from choosing to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There are three things that everyone must experience or face as a trial.  One is to have a physical body.  Two is to have physical experience that will eventually result in death.  Death is the only possible result of the experience of evil.  Three is to be resurrected – which is the experience of good.  This is the plan and the script or trial we face to experience the good from the evil.  As near as I can determine – anything else is either an element or trial within one of the 3 possibilities or is fluff that does not matter.  It seems to me our trials are going to occur according to plan.  Our choice in this life is what we do with and during our trials.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

We have been preparing a very long time for our mortal probation. 

OK.  Understood that paragraph. No issues.

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The term you are using for our experiences in mortality are tests.

Yeah, but like you, a test to see whether or not the software performs to the design specs - or in your case, whether the physical object performs to its design specs. Call it a test / probation / trial / whatever. I understand your idea of what it means: see whether it meets the specs, where it doesn't, how it deviates, so that you know what needs correction in order for it to meet said specs.

10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have not talked to anyone in my entire life that thinks we get to pick our trials while in this mortal probation.

It doesn't seem that hard to comprehend, at least.  Based on accumulated knowledge, here are the areas in which you need to be "tried" - perhaps because you can't seem to learn that principle as a spirit, despite trying, perhaps for some other reason.  Regardless, it's not hard for me to imagine this.

12 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The only way I can conclude that we have agency, is if we exercised that agency to select or accept each and every trial we face in our mortal probation while we were in the pre-existence.

Understood.

14 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Now for your question.

All possibilities in the script everyone is given comes down to the final trial of death.  I realize a lot of individuals have tried to depart from this script but death always eventually happens.   My father use to say something to me when I was ready to quit and give up.  He would say that I could quit and give up if that was my choice but I would just get an incomplete on that trial and end up having to finish it in the next life.  In short, we cannot win, we cannot break even, and we cannot get out of the game.  It was our choice to experience mortal probation.

What we are doing is the follow-up from choosing to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There are three things that everyone must experience or face as a trial.  One is to have a physical body.  Two is to have physical experience that will eventually result in death.  Death is the only possible result of the experience of evil.  Three is to be resurrected – which is the experience of good.  This is the plan and the script or trial we face to experience the good from the evil.  As near as I can determine – anything else is either an element or trial within one of the 3 possibilities or is fluff that does not matter.  It seems to me our trials are going to occur according to plan.  Our choice in this life is what we do with and during our trials.

OK, that didn't answer my question.  First you say that everything right down to insect bites was all planned out.  Now you've backed off and are looking at it from a very, very high altitude where many of the details between mortal birth and death don't really matter, so long as we experience the important elements of this mortal probation.

So which is it?  We've got a script that includes insect bites, or we've got an outline with key elements that have to be accomplished?  And if we've got that script, can we deviate from it, and if so, by how much?  (If we've just got an outline, then I have no further questions.)

[mordorbund]

12 hours ago, Traveler said:

In short, we cannot win, we cannot break even, and we cannot get out of the game.

The Wiz has entered the chat

[Traveler]

13 hours ago, zil2 said:

.....

OK, that didn't answer my question.  First you say that everything right down to insect bites was all planned out.  Now you've backed off and are looking at it from a very, very high altitude where many of the details between mortal birth and death don't really matter, so long as we experience the important elements of this mortal probation.

So which is it?  We've got a script that includes insect bites, or we've got an outline with key elements that have to be accomplished?  And if we've got that script, can we deviate from it, and if so, by how much?  (If we've just got an outline, then I have no further questions.)

It may be possible that there are things in this life of little or no consequence.  Perhaps that should be allowed for.  I am of a mind that there is nothing that we experience of mortality that does not have eternal ramifications. 

Much of the testing I designed in my profession was not just to find bugs.  Some of the testing was done to determine maintenance schedules of various robots and various elements that wear down.  Sometime to determine when various parts or elements are being overworked.  Some tests were run to discover bottle nicks during high performance.  There were tests designed for low throughput to discover where things could be shut down without sacrificing quality. 

Even after everything had been tested and found to operate within all the designed parameters a “Kaizen” would take place.  In essence, a kaizen is a high-intensity and very qualified team of a cross section of those working with the system.  Their purpose is a very hands-on expert analysis of all the all the functions and operations at all levels to determine ways to improve efficiency, quality and any other desired results. 

In my work – it was my responsibility to maximize all the possible parameters with the intent of making all that was available to achieve the most it was possibly capable of doing (not just the software).   I have often thought it interesting that in automated manufacturing, automated supply chain operations and distribution of goods and services that our society is interested in maximizing all that is possible – but with human relationships and what individuals are capable of becoming – we remain, for the most part, quite ignorant, primitive and backwards.  This applies to all levels of humanity, from individuals, to families, to communities, to whatever levels of togetherness we hope to achieve.  It is my opinion that for the most part, whatever we think we are doing with our lives – we are missing out on marvelous and wonderful opportunities beyond our wildest dreams – mostly because of money and the desire to accumulate power and prestige for ourselves.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

35 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It may be possible that there are things in this life of little or no consequence.  Perhaps that should be allowed for.  I am of a mind that there is nothing that we experience of mortality that does not have eternal ramifications. 

I understand.

35 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Much of the testing I designed in my profession was not just to find bugs.  Some of the testing was done to determine maintenance schedules of various robots and various elements that wear down.  Sometime to determine when various parts or elements are being overworked.  Some tests were run to discover bottle nicks during high performance.  There were tests designed for low throughput to discover where things could be shut down without sacrificing quality.

Yep, makes perfect sense.

36 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Even after everything had been tested and found to operate within all the designed parameters a “Kaizen” would take place.  In essence, a kaizen is a high-intensity and very qualified team of a cross section of those working with the system.  Their purpose is a very hands-on expert analysis of all the all the functions and operations at all levels to determine ways to improve efficiency, quality and any other desired results.

Yep. I've participated in many Kaizen events.

37 minutes ago, Traveler said:

In my work – it was my responsibility to maximize all the possible parameters with the intent of making all that was available to achieve the most it was possibly capable of doing (not just the software).   I have often thought it interesting that in automated manufacturing, automated supply chain operations and distribution of goods and services that our society is interested in maximizing all that is possible – but with human relationships and what individuals are capable of becoming – we remain, for the most part, quite ignorant, primitive and backwards.  This applies to all levels of humanity, from individuals, to families, to communities, to whatever levels of togetherness we hope to achieve.  It is my opinion that for the most part, whatever we think we are doing with our lives – we are missing out on marvelous and wonderful opportunities beyond our wildest dreams – mostly because of money and the desire to accumulate power and prestige for ourselves.

OK, still doesn't answer my question, except perhaps indirectly.  The above might suggest that though the script was made, we have the ability to deviate from it, and quite significantly so.  Am I reading this correctly, or...?

[Carborendum]

23 hours ago, mordorbund said:

The Wiz has entered the chat

 

[Traveler]

On 5/30/2025 at 10:07 AM, zil2 said:

.....

OK, still doesn't answer my question, except perhaps indirectly.  The above might suggest that though the script was made, we have the ability to deviate from it, and quite significantly so.  Am I reading this correctly, or...?

I have considered this from many angles, thoughts and possibilities.  As I have tried to deal with this question – let’s use the concept of a spectrum of possibilities.  At one end is that we come into this life with a total blank sheet and in essence we are left to chart out our life without anything pre-arraigned or preplanned.   At the other end of the spectrum, everything in our life is planned and prearranged.  Everything that will and can happen has been fixed and is 100% known.  Like a ride at an amusement park, we just get on and ride it out to the end. 

It ought to be obvious that the blank sheet (completely random and all chance) end of the spectrum is not likely the purpose of this life.  Our LDS theology would indicate that we were involved in things in a pre-existence state that had direct impact on things in this life.  At least that is what I gather from Alma chapter 13 of the Book of Mormon (and other scriptures).

So what about the other possibilities (of infinite variety all along the spectrum).   Where do we draw the line?  At what point does G-d and the pre-existence experiences drop out of the picture and let us lose to make any change we want?

The primary problem that I have encountered is the extreme ignorance with which we navigate this life.  And the stakes are extremely high with consequences that will last forever.  I have attempted many excuses, and I keep coming back to agency.  How is it possible to have agency to choose door 1, 2, 3 or however many doors there are when we lack the full and complete knowledge of what is behind the doors.  In essence we have no knowledge or control over the future.  Those kinds of choices are mostly blind guesses with a hope of faith in some way that it will work out for us – the one we select to be better than the others. 

So, I wonder – how it is that we have any agency at all?  The more I attempted to solve this logical conundrum, the more I realized that regardless of whatever choices we make or think we make – we must eventually die.  The only way I could account for agency is if we made our choices with the full knowledge of the effects and consequences for everything that takes place in our life.  If there is anything beyond what we previously determined, then our agency was overturned – we are being acted upon by something outside ourself and our agency.  In short we had to commit to take upon our mortal probation in a forgotten (the veil) state of the choices of our agency.

After this life (in the spirit world) after completing all the mortal, physical, natural man and painful stuff we complete our eternal destiny through the mercy of G-d and the completion of our agency as to the laws, ordinances and covenants by which we will commit by agency for our eternity.

I am open to other possibilities – I just cannot logically come up with how anything can be changed in this life from what we knew in the pre-existence and still account for our agency.  If anyone can explain a way around this problem of agency – I would really like to hear it.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

It seems to me you have a general idea, but you aren't sure of the details yourself, hence the difficulty in answering my question... (ETA: Which has essentially become pointless, so I'm giving up on that line.)

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

If anyone can explain a way around this problem of agency – I would really like to hear it.

Consider this statement of yours:

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The primary problem that I have encountered is the extreme ignorance with which we navigate this life.  And the stakes are extremely high with consequences that will last forever.  I have attempted many excuses, and I keep coming back to agency.  How is it possible to have agency to choose door 1, 2, 3 or however many doors there are when we lack the full and complete knowledge of what is behind the doors.  In essence we have no knowledge or control over the future.  Those kinds of choices are mostly blind guesses with a hope of faith in some way that it will work out for us – the one we select to be better than the others. 

So, I wonder – how it is that we have any agency at all?  The more I attempted to solve this logical conundrum, the more I realized that regardless of whatever choices we make or think we make – we must eventually die.  The only way I could account for agency is if we made our choices with the full knowledge of the effects and consequences for everything that takes place in our life.  If there is anything beyond what we previously determined, then our agency was overturned – we are being acted upon by something outside ourself and our agency.  In short we had to commit to take upon our mortal probation in a forgotten (the veil) state of the choices of our agency.

After this life (in the spirit world) after completing all the mortal, physical, natural man and painful stuff we complete our eternal destiny through the mercy of G-d and the completion of our agency as to the laws, ordinances and covenants by which we will commit by agency for our eternity.

In light of this, how do you explain the veil of forgetfulness?  If we need knowledge and control in order to make a choice rather than a blind guess, why did God "veil" the knowledge we had gained before?  What function does this serve?  If we previously knew everything that would happen in mortality, then presumably your final paragraph (the part you say happens in the spirit world), would require us to regain whatever knowledge we had before mortality, no?  Otherwise, how could we complete that process, with the veil of forgetfulness still in place?

And if we needed the knowledge before mortality, and will need it again after, in order to make our informed choice, then why did we need the veil during mortality?

(NOTE: I personally feel like I know full well why we need the veil, but I'm not sure the veil makes any sense in your model of things.)

Edited Saturday at 10:21 PM by zil2

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, zil2 said:

It seems to me you have a general idea, but you aren't sure of the details yourself, hence the difficulty in answering my question... (ETA: Which has essentially become pointless, so I'm giving up on that line.)

Consider this statement of yours:

In light of this, how do you explain the veil of forgetfulness?  If we need knowledge and control in order to make a choice rather than a blind guess, why did God "veil" the knowledge we had gained before?  What function does this serve?  If we previously knew everything that would happen in mortality, then presumably your final paragraph (the part you say happens in the spirit world), would require us to regain whatever knowledge we had before mortality, no?  Otherwise, how could we complete that process, with the veil of forgetfulness still in place?

And if we needed the knowledge before mortality, and will need it again after, in order to make our informed choice, then why did we need the veil during mortality?

(NOTE: I personally feel like I know full well why we need the veil, but I'm not sure the veil makes any sense in your model of things.)

The plan of salvation requires that we experience a fallen state so that through our experience we can know the good from the evil.  We learn from scripture that we must live in this mortal probation with a veil blocking us from the pure light of truth.  Because, if we sin against the pure light of truth with knowledge – we cannot be forgiven for our sins.  Those that sin against the pure light of truth are called the sons of perdition.   These sins are not covered by the atonement of Christ.  I have speculated on how and why an infinite atonement does not apply – but that is another discussion.  The point is that we cannot act by knowledge (I believe to be necessary for agency) in this mortal probation to be able to experience sin and qualify for an atonement.

The other reason for the veil is that if we have knowledge our trials become meaningless and our purpose of experiencing a trial is thwarted.   This is why I believe that agency does not fully apply to our mortal probation – we really do not know what we are doing – note that Jesus specifically recounted that mortals should be forgiven because we know not what we are doing.   I believe that this fog of understanding and requiring faith alone creates a unique condition for our mortal probation portion part of the plan of salvation. 

It appears very obvious to me that we cannot control anything in this mortal experience beyond our own thoughts, hopes, intentions and dreams.   Physically, everything around us operates beyond what we think we control in a moment.  When we turn on a light switch – if the light comes on or not, it has nothing to do with us.  The Book of Mormon tells us that even every breath we take is overseen by G-d who is allowing us breath.  This is a fixed environment controlled far beyond what we are even capable of as mortals.  

But I believe that we do have agency and what is playing out is because of our agency – that I believe was part of our pre-existence (See Doctrine and Covenants 93:31).  Note that this scripture references our agency as something that was from the beginning – not something that takes place at a particular moment.   I think that when scriptures reference a beginning that it is talking about the beginning or initiation of the plan of salvation.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

I'm having a hard time figuring out how to continue this discussion, @Traveler.  Your first paragraph matches with what I expect the vast majority of the members believe.

But your post also seems to be wavering back to "everything is planned in extreme detail and we can't deviate".

It also doesn't answer my question - not in my mind, at least - of how this fits with the proposal that we have to know before we can choose.

[changing gears]

D&C 101:78 makes it clear that God gave us moral agency so that we could be held accountable for our choices.

In Moses 7:32, God says he gave man his agency in the Garden of Eden.

Have you considered:

• That [agency] is not the same thing as [capacity to make choices]?
• And that [agency] may have a sphere, just like everything else has a sphere; which might suggest that the agency we have in mortality is only for mortality and differs from the agency we had in pre-mortality, and will differ from the agency we have at some future point?  (I suspect it will be a later point than [arrival in the spirit world], but that's a technicality that's not important.)
• That not every use of the word "agency" (or similar words / phrases) necessarily refers to the same thing?  (E.g. it might refer to agency within a specific sphere; or to the concept of agency; or (because our language is flawed) it might refer to something else entirely, such as "will" or "capacity to choose"; etc.)  When you throw in what we learn in D&C 19:11-12, it's easy to see that the Lord allows us to make false assumptions if in His wisdom He thinks those false assumptions will "work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory."

[changing gears]

It seems to me, that the Lord often utilizes not just covenants and ordinances, but also proxy work, extensively.  Some may think this only applies to latter-day temple work, but consider:

• The Atonement was proxy work - perhaps even an ordinance, wherein the Lord suffered as our proxy.
• Many of the sacrifices performed from Adam until the Crucifixion of Christ were proxy sacrifices, wherein an animal symbolized Christ, but also (at least in some), where an animal was proxy for the sinner (or so it seems to me).

Would you agree that the Lord makes extensive use of proxy work, in order to accomplish His purposes?  If so, I have another question, but it should wait until we know whether you agree.

Edited Monday at 12:49 AM by zil2

[askandanswer]

On 5/29/2025 at 11:12 PM, Maytoday said:

Sometimes I look back on these things and think how did these people ever hold a conversation with my social-skill less self. 

Nonetheless, let's see if I have learned anything in the past year. 

I suppose on a rational level, I would agree, yes. Most of what God says are him stating what he is going to do. However, I would also consider God to be omnipotent. And if God is all-powerful(and also not a liar), he will do what he says he will do. So what he says he will do will happen. And a prophecy is just saying that a specified thing will happen in the future.

 

If I am understanding this correctly, humankind was (or is?) in a sort of prototype testing in order to find what changes or modifications need to be made. The intention of the testing of inventions is to find the "bugs" per say, in order to prevent something from not working once it is released. This is because we, as flawed beings, will always have a problem in anything we create. We know, however, that "as your heavenly Father is perfect," and it is to my knowledge that a perfect being wouldn't make mistakes, so his creation would be perfect, not necessitating a probationary period.

Perhaps by the unit of measurement used by Those who create, to be perfect, a created being requires agency, and without agency, the created thing is an imperfect creation. If this were true, it would follow that a perfect creation would result in a creation that makes mistakes and poor choices.

Edited Tuesday at 01:18 AM by askandanswer

[askandanswer]

On 5/28/2025 at 9:19 PM, Omergideon said:

The most direct contradiction to my conception of God and prophecy is the statements like "he knows the end from the beginning" and "all is present to the Lord". But I cannot think of a single scriptural reference that says God exists outside of time. Him knowing the end to me speaks more of him already knowing the whole plan and what he will do later to make sure..... he wins feels a crude way to say it but such is.

 

Alam 40:8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

[askandanswer]

On 5/29/2025 at 6:02 AM, zil2 said:

You've explained this before, and if I understand correctly, you are in essence saying we planned out the details of our mortality with God before we came here.  Is that correct?  (Cuz if it is, I have a doozy of a question for you.)

ETA: Followup question: If the above is correct, do you believe this happened for everyone, or only for those who would have a significant impact?

I've long felt attracted to Neal A Maxwell's teachings about the customised curriculum. It seems to make sense and helps to provide answers to some questions about the reasons for why things happen. This is what my AI powered search returned when I type in Latter Day Saints Neal A Maxwell customised curriculum. At first glance, the search results seem to accord with my recolletion of what Elder Maxwell taught.

Including results for quote Latter day saints Neal A Maxwell customized curriculum
Search only for quote Latter day saints Neal A Maxwell customise curriculum

AI overview

AI Overview

Learn more

 

Elder Neal A. Maxwell, a former member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, often spoke about personalized trials and learning experiences. He taught that God, out of love, customizes the "curriculum" for each individual, presenting challenges and lessons that are tailored to their specific needs. 

 

Here's a more detailed look at the concept:

• Personalized Trials:

  Maxwell believed that life's trials are not random but are specifically designed by God to help individuals learn and grow. 

   
• Customized Curriculum:

  He used the analogy of a "customized curriculum" to describe how God's lessons are adapted to each person's unique circumstances and weaknesses. 

   
• Learning Through Experience:

  Maxwell emphasized that God often teaches us through experiences, even when those experiences are difficult. He noted that we may need to learn vicariously, but often, we must learn the hard way through lived experience. 

   
• God's Love and Knowledge:

  He saw this personalized approach as a testament to God's love and his understanding of each individual's journey. 

   
• Example Quotes:

  • "He will customize the curriculum for each of us in order to teach us the things we most need to know," according to BYU Speeches. 
     
  • "The Christian receives a customized curriculum in life, which is but one of many signs that we have a loving and knowing Father in heaven," according to BYU Speeches. 

[mordorbund]

On 5/30/2025 at 10:32 AM, mordorbund said:

On 5/29/2025 at 9:42 PM, Traveler said:

In short, we cannot win, we cannot break even, and we cannot get out of the game.

The Wiz has entered the chat

Just for you @Traveler

 

[askandanswer]

On 5/30/2025 at 8:16 AM, zil2 said:

Can a person, during their mortality, depart from the script that was laid out during their pre-mortality?  If so, to what extent can they depart from the script?

It seems to me that a spirit in the pre-existence, never having had the knowledge and benefits that come from having had a body, is a somewhat lesser being than a spirit that has been combined with a body and then placed in mortality. It would seem unreasonable that a lesser being, with less knowledge and experience, could over-ride, or make better decisions, than a being with greater knowledge and experience. So I would think that a being in mortality has the power/agency to depart from any plan made in the pre-mortal life. No matter how carefully such plans might be formed, they would lack the knowledge that can only come from the experience of mortality

If we are in mortality simply for the purpose of going on a pre-planned ride, planned by a lesser being, from which we could not depart, then that would make redundant the whole purpose of mortality, which, as I see it, is to test our willingness to make righteous choices in an environment where the reduced influence of the Father (in comparison to His likely high degree of influence in the pre-existence) makes it more likely that the choices that we will make in mortality will be our choices, and not the choices we think He would like us to make.

And to address the second part of the question, I think that the actions and decisions of Judas Iscariot can be instructive when considering the extent to which a person can depart from their pre-mortal script. Who, in the pre-existence, would write such a script that would lead to them betraying Christ? I suspect that he did not write such a script, and in mortality he did betray Christ, so there must have been some variation between the script and what happened. 

Edited Tuesday at 02:43 AM by askandanswer

[zil2]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I've long felt attracted to Neal A Maxwell's teachings about the customised curriculum.

I'm familiar with Elder Maxwell's idea.  FYI, I am not trying to figure out the truth or form a theory or model of anything.  I have one and only one goal in mind for participating in this discussion: to understand what exactly @Traveler's idea is, in as much detail as he can give me.  That's it.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

It seems to me that a spirit in the pre-existence, never having had the knowledge and benefits that come from having had a body, is a somewhat lesser being than a spirit that has been combined with a body and then placed in mortality. It would seem unreasonable that a lesser being, with less knowledge and experience, could over-ride, or make better decisions, than a being with greater knowledge and experience. So I would think that a being in mortality has the power/agency to depart from any plan made in the pre-mortal life. No matter how carefully such plans might be formed, they would lack the knowledge that can only come from the experience of mortality

Again, I'm trying to understand @Traveler's ideas. Not judge them, not counter them, not add to them or detract from them, just to understand them.  (But remember that in Traveler's version, God is fully involved in making the plan, so this "lesser being" problem is thereby solved.)

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

If we are in mortality simply for the purpose of going on a pre-planned ride, planned by a lesser being, from which we could not depart, then that would make redundant the whole purpose of mortality, which, as I see it, is to test our willingness to make righteous choices in an environment where the reduced influence of the Father (in comparison to His likely high degree of influence in the pre-existence) makes it more likely that the choices that we will make in mortality will be our choices, and not the choices we think He would like us to make.

Nibley says something very similar in Approaching Zion, chapter 10 "Funeral Address".

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

And to address the second part of the question, I think that the actions and decisions of Judas Iscariot can be instructive when considering the extent to which a person can depart from their pre-mortal script. Who, in the pre-existence, would write such a script that would lead to them betraying Christ? I suspect that he did not write such a script, and in mortality he did betray Christ, so there must have been some variation between the script and what happened. 

You're getting ahead of the conversation.

(Sorry, don't mean to offend or anything, but if there's any hope of accomplishing the goal, I have to stay on point - side discussions mixed into the main one would only muddy the water.)

[Traveler]

With this post, I will attempt to deal with more than one thing.  First, I desire to address @zil2 .  Your questions are good and have caused me to think and adjust my understanding.  The word agency has always caused we to ponder – wondering what it possibly means.   I have had somewhat of an epiphany over your reference that we (Adam) were given agency in Eden.

I have thought of agency as a binary – we either have agency or we do not.  I have understood that we were given agency in the beginning of the pre-existence – especially during the councils of Heaven when the Father presented the plan of salvation.  D&C 93:31 explains agency but verse 30 says something interesting about independence in that sphere in which G-d has placed it – to act for itself.   What is a sphere?  There is a cross reference to D&C 77:3 that relates sphere to a “destined order”.  I am thinking that a sphere is ordered by law, ordinance(s) and covenant.  This leads me to believe that there are different spheres, and each sphere has its unique “level” of agency.  This is a new idea of agency for me.  This little idea has ramifications that could create a thread of discussion all its own. 

But there is another point from verse 30 – “to act for itself”.  There is a cross reference here to 2Nephi 2:13 that implies both to act and to be acted upon.  I have always thought of agency to be exclusively to act and not to be acted upon.  I have never considered independence as having the element of being acted upon.

There is a conundrum about agency that has always troubled me.  If conditions are repeated but we respond one way once and then another way when repeated which was the true or real act of agency?  How can we say we are controlling our “independence” and not something outside us overriding to cause “our?” act to change?  Could G-d suddenly as a singular choice, sin, or Satan suddenly as a singular choice. become a being of light and truth, as an act of “independence”?   I think not – I am thinking that agency is no more than a binary choice to either act according to a level of light and truth within a sphere or to follow a level of acts of darkness and lies within a sphere.

All this bring me (or us) to what has always been somewhat of a mystery to me.  How predictable (non-variant or non-changing) are independent beings? 

 

PS – I still need to address your point of proxy work.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

13 hours ago, askandanswer said:

.....

And to address the second part of the question, I think that the actions and decisions of Judas Iscariot can be instructive when considering the extent to which a person can depart from their pre-mortal script. Who, in the pre-existence, would write such a script that would lead to them betraying Christ? I suspect that he did not write such a script, and in mortality he did betray Christ, so there must have been some variation between the script and what happened. 

There is a question that I believe to be shrouded in speculation.  Does the atonement allow Judas Iscariot or King David to repent and obtain a Celestial glory?  There is another question - Did G-d know of their sin before they acted?  You imply that if they had known of their gross sin in the pre-existence that they would not have followed the plan of G-d but would have chosen to follow Lucifer?

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Your questions are good and have caused me to think and adjust my understanding.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

D&C 93:31 explains agency but verse 30

Quote

D&C 93:30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

Note that I do not necessarily thing that verse 30's "act for itself" (also found in 2 Nephi 2) equates to "agency of man" - I think "act for itself" is a prerequisite for agency.  I think the "agency" we usually talk about is "whose name we take upon ourselves", "the entity we choose to represent", and "the one to whom we will be accountable" (really, different ways of saying the same thing).  The ability to act is a simple consequence of this mix of "ingredients": [action is possible], [there are choices], [the being has some level of intelligence].

(Note, too, just because [truth] (whatever that means) is [independent...to act for itself], does that mean man is as well?  How in the world does [truth] act?  [Truth] seems like a condition or description or state, not a sentient being, yet here we have it acting.  Is verse 30 saying that God defines what [truth] exists within a sphere, or what the [truth] of that sphere is, and then that truth "acts upon" the sentient beings simply by virtue of its existence and being true (à la gravity) and verse 31 is describing that we live in a sphere with [truth] and have our agency to either act in harmony with the [truth] of that sphere or to reject it?)

Now, add this to your mix:

Quote

D&C 88:35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

This sounds like the sons of perdition, no - those who reject any and all law and spheres offered by God, and seek to become a law unto themselves?  These act as agents for themselves, not for Christ or anyone else.  They are their own mediator/advocate - pro se, as it were.  To me, this highlights the difference between [will] and [agency].  They have will, we have will.  They become agents unto themselves.  We become, through covenants, agents of Jesus Christ.  They keep their own names. We take Christ's name.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

There is a cross reference to D&C 77:3 that relates sphere to a “destined order”.

D&C 77:3 also calls it a "sphere of creation", suggesting that glory, agency, and "stuff" all are related to the sphere in which one is created - or perhaps we should say "enspirited" and later "embodied" and later "resurrected" (and apparently, those aren't necessarily the same spheres).

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

There is a conundrum about agency that has always troubled me.  If conditions are repeated but we respond one way once and then another way when repeated which was the true or real act of agency?  How can we say we are controlling our “independence” and not something outside us overriding to cause “our?” act to change?  Could G-d suddenly as a singular choice, sin, or Satan suddenly as a singular choice. become a being of light and truth, as an act of “independence”?   I think not – I am thinking that agency is no more than a binary choice to either act according to a level of light and truth within a sphere or to follow a level of acts of darkness and lies within a sphere.

I don't believe that in mortality it's possible for conditions to be repeated. You cannot wipe your own experience of having been through the conditions previously.  So even if all else is precisely identical (and how could it be - nothing in mortality is ever precisely identical), the person(s) having the experience would not be identical.

I don't think we can claim to be [controlling our "independence"] - whatever that word and phrase mean to you.  There are far too many other sentient beings on the planet who have the power to act on you.  In theory, you have control over your response to how others act on you, but we all know that our control is imperfect and involves some degree of knee-jerk reaction...

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

All this bring me (or us) to what has always been somewhat of a mystery to me.  How predictable (non-variant or non-changing) are independent beings? 

(I assume everyone on this board knows my real name is Liz, but just in case, there it is. We'll need it for the following paragraphs.)

I think I am the exact same person I have always been, from the start of eternity (yes, I know there is no start to eternity).  Just as God is unchanging, I think all of us are, we just don't fully understand it yet, we mortals have not yet expressed our individual "fullness".  Given each set of circumstances I have faced, face, and will face, there's only one choice I will make at each junction (which choice defines my future possibilities).  The me that I started as got me to where I am now, therefore, where I am now is who I always was - this degree of "Liz-ness" simply hadn't been expressed yet, but was inevitable.  God's omniscience allows Him to see the full expression of my "Liz-ness"; my own ignorance prevents me from seeing it, but it's there all the same.

This does not alter my ability to choose - it doesn't make me an automaton or some thoughtless, pre-programmed entity.  Rather, it makes me Liz.  My choices define me. Each choice "filters" what future choices are available to me.  Past me put current me where I am.  Current me will put future me wherever I will be.  I am not condemned or predestined to a future imposed by some external being - I am me, and I create my own future, which was in me all along, just not yet fully expressed.

If ever there has been a change in what I am, it has come not through anything I did (I don't think I'm capable), but through Jesus Christ changing my heart (to which I had to submit as a willing and ignorant participant - not unlike letting a heart surgeon go in and make some changes).  This might, maybe have changed who Liz was from before the beginning of beginnings, but not really, because even the choice to let Christ change me was an expression of "Liz-ness".

If that makes no sense, I can attempt to re-word it.

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

PS – I still need to address your point of proxy work.

[zil2]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

Does the atonement allow Judas Iscariot or King David to repent and obtain a Celestial glory?

Yes, we know King David's fate:  (removed the "yes" to clarify - I wasn't saying yes to your question, but to the fact that we know his fate and the answer to your question is "no")

Quote

D&C 132:39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

As to Judas:

Quote

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Quote

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

The world doesn't understand that verse in Mark, but we do.

Quote

Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Sounds a lot like this:

Quote

D&C 88:32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

Edited Tuesday at 11:22 PM by zil2

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

There is a question that I believe to be shrouded in speculation.  Does the atonement allow Judas Iscariot or King David to repent and obtain a Celestial glory?  There is another question - Did G-d know of their sin before they acted?  You imply that if they had known of their gross sin in the pre-existence that they would not have followed the plan of G-d but would have chosen to follow Lucifer?

I don't think @askandanswer was implying what your last sentence says. I think he's suggesting that it's beyond inconceivable for God to sit down with the worst of humanity¹ and map out their lives of pure evil.  I had decided not to go here, but we can if you wish.  Your model has each individual mapping out their mortal lives right down the to bug bites they'll suffer.  This includes people far more wicked than King David (as far as I can tell).  It would also include God sitting down with the victims of these evil souls and walking through the nightmare that will be their torturous end.  Are you capable of reconciling that image in your brain?

"Now, Anthony Sears, I know it sounds kind of gross, but your life will end with Jeffrey Dahmer plopping your genitals in a jar of acetone. Oh, and eating bits of your body."  I'm having a hard time imagining God explaining that one.

¹Judas, Hitler & Nazi doctors, Japanese "Unit 731" doctors (also WWII), Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. etc. etc.

There is one and only one way that I can reconcile these "people" mapping out their mortal existence with God, but it still strikes me as absurd, so I'm not going to state it here until I've heard your own explanation, should you care / be able to give it.  It's also, really, the only one I have for their victims, as well (sort of).

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

I don't think @askandanswer was implying what your last sentence says. I think he's suggesting that it's beyond inconceivable for God to sit down with the worst of humanity¹ and map out their lives of pure evil.  I had decided not to go here, but we can if you wish.  Your model has each individual mapping out their mortal lives right down the to bug bites they'll suffer.  This includes people far more wicked than King David (as far as I can tell).  It would also include God sitting down with the victims of these evil souls and walking through the nightmare that will be their torturous end.  Are you capable of reconciling that image in your brain?

"Now, Anthony Sears, I know it sounds kind of gross, but your life will end with Jeffrey Dahmer plopping your genitals in a jar of acetone. Oh, and eating bits of your body."  I'm having a hard time imagining God explaining that one.

¹Judas, Hitler & Nazi doctors, Japanese "Unit 731" doctors (also WWII), Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. etc. etc.

There is one and only one way that I can reconcile these "people" mapping out their mortal existence with God, but it still strikes me as absurd, so I'm not going to state it here until I've heard your own explanation, should you care / be able to give it.  It's also, really, the only one I have for their victims, as well (sort of).

You have left me with a lot to ponder – I find this conversation both interesting and invigorating.  I very much appreciate your excellent efforts to find flaws in my interpretation of things.

But I did want to respond to this particular exchange of notions.  I am quite sure that there were great details explained about how things would be during this mortal probation – even who would be involved.  I believe that honesty (including self-honesty) was paramount in the pre-existence, and we honestly laid out our plan – knowing what experiences were necessary to “convince” us of evil and its effect?  I can visualize how Lucifer would aggressively point out all the inevitable consequences within the spectrum of evil experiences especially as a warning to those that would be so inclined.  I believe that especially, even from the beginning, that Jesus was well aware that he would suffer more than all others in aggregate.   In short Jesus knew all the suffering that would take place and as absurd as it may seem mapped out his mortal probationary existence to so conpensate – not only suffer himself but to allow all of us to pile on evil upon evil.  I am overcome with grief just thinking on this.

Since Lucifer was active there – I speculate that he argued against all the suffering and consequences and for a seemingly good cause.  That no one would be happy with unleashing freely the degrees of evil that most certainly would result.  And since he wanted to be the Messiah – a better alternative to save everyone without him having to pay such an awful price – convinced many to agree with him.

Comparably, my sins may not seem so bad but I am still greatly ashamed of what more suffering I have caused and definitely, to some point, would that I had not done so.  I do think that even though my mortal probation has not ended yet – I am not the same person that I once was and hope that I will yet evolve to someone much (infinitely?) better.

 

The Traveler