What does this mean? Christ said to Mahonri . . .

[Still_Small_Voice]

 

I do not fully understand these scriptures.  What does this mean?

 

11 And the Lord said unto him [the brother of Jared]: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.  -- Book of Ether chapter 3

Does this mean that the Brother of Jared had his calling and election made sure at this moment and the veil was removed from his mind?  What does it mean when Christ said:  ". . . Ye are brought back into my presence."

[ZealoulyStriving]

13 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Does this mean that the Brother of Jared had his calling and election made sure at this moment and the veil was removed from his mind? 

I hadn't thought of that before... I think you might be on to something.

[zil2]

Yes, I think this means the brother of Jared had his calling and election made sure at this point.  I think "brought back into my presence" means literally what it says.  We were in His presence in the pre-mortal realm, and now the brother of Jared was being brought back into His presence.  IMO, these verses teach a degree of faith that is easy to understand intellectually (e.g. v12), but not as easy to live.

[Still_Small_Voice]

So Zil, you believe "brought back into my presence" literally means Mahonri could call on the LORD and he would see the LORD in vision, converse with Him face to face or hear the voice of the LORD speaking to Him like he was in the celestial kingdom?

[zil2]

19 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

So Zil, you believe "brought back into my presence" literally means Mahonri could call on the LORD and he would see the LORD in vision, converse with Him face to face or hear the voice of the LORD speaking to Him like he was in the celestial kingdom?

I mean that in that moment, while they were talking, Mahonri was brought into the presence of the Lord - that it wasn't just a vision, the Lord was there physically (His spirit).  Read the rest of the chapter - being brought into the presence of the Lord appears to include seeing all things (v25-26).  I don't think this was necessarily a future thing - whether the Lord appeared to Mahonri on future occasions, I don't know, but on this occasion, He did.  Whether that was like being in the celestial kingdom, I don't know - I only know what was written in the chapter...  But verse 20 is interesting - Mahonri could not be kept from within the veil - presumably the veil that separates us from God...  Mahonri experienced things we don't know (again, see the rest of the chapter - not all that he wrote has been given to us).

[mikbone]

Yup, Mahonri wrote the sealed 2/3 portion.

Ether 3:21-25

He passed thru the veil of forgetfulness and recalled his pre-mortal existence, recognizing Jehovah.

He then was given a vision till the end of the world.  He saw it all.

Edited April 29 by mikbone

[laronius]

I have always interpreted this experience as the brother of Jared having his calling and election made sure but not just because Jesus showed himself to him. It was how it happened. There have been and will be times when His appearance does not mean that. For example I don't think Joseph Smith had his calling and election made sure at the First Vision. When Christ appears to the Jews on the Mount of Olives I don't think that is what's happening either. 

[Carborendum]

12 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

11 And the Lord said unto him [the brother of Jared]: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.  -- Book of Ether chapter 3

Does this mean that the Brother of Jared had his calling and election made sure at this moment and the veil was removed from his mind?  What does it mean when Christ said:  ". . . Ye are brought back into my presence."

Notice the jump in the middle of v. 13.  

Quote

1. The Lord Shows Himself.
2. Because thou knowest these things...

Now think about the endowment.

Be true and faithful to your covenants and you will be brought into the presence of the Lord at final judgment. 

Mahonri had the Second Comforter given to him in mortality.  So, yes.  He had his calling and election made sure.

Edited April 29 by Carborendum

[Jersey Boy]

15 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

 

I do not fully understand these scriptures.  What does this mean?

 

11 And the Lord said unto him [the brother of Jared]: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.  -- Book of Ether chapter 3

Does this mean that the Brother of Jared had his calling and election made sure at this moment and the veil was removed from his mind?  What does it mean when Christ said:  ". . . Ye are brought back into my presence."

The following observations on this subject are from the Prophet Joseph Smith: “After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his Sins & is baptized for the remission of his Sins & recieves the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands,) which is the first Comforter then let him continue to humble himself before God hungering & thirsting after righteousness & living by every word of God, & the Lord will soon say unto him Son thou shalt be exalted, &c. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him & find that the man is determind to serve him at all hazard then the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to recieve the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the Saints as is recorded in the testimony of St. John in the XIV ch from the 12 to the 27 vers note the 16-17-18-21:23 verses Now what is this other Comforter it is no more or less than the Lord Jesus Christ himself & this is the sum & substance of the whole matter that when any man obtains this last Comforter he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him or appear unto him from time to time Even he will manifest the Father unto him & they will take up there abode with him & the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him & the Lord will teach him face to face & he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God.”

Discourse, between circa 26 June and circa 2 July 1839, as Reported by Wilford Woodruff, pp. 32-34, The Joseph Smith Papers.

[Still_Small_Voice]

9 hours ago, laronius said:

I have always interpreted this experience as the brother of Jared having his calling and election made sure but not just because Jesus showed himself to him. It was how it happened. There have been and will be times when His appearance does not mean that. For example I don't think Joseph Smith had his calling and election made sure at the First Vision. When Christ appears to the Jews on the Mount of Olives I don't think that is what's happening either. 

The LORD appeared to King Solomon.  Then, later in his life, he allowed his many wives and concubines to corrupt his heart.  Solomon went after other idol gods many years after seeing the LORD God and forgetting Him.  So sad how someone can ascend so high spiritually with so much wisdom and also have great physical wealth and then fall.

[CV75]

20 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

 

I do not fully understand these scriptures.  What does this mean?

 

11 And the Lord said unto him [the brother of Jared]: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.  -- Book of Ether chapter 3

Does this mean that the Brother of Jared had his calling and election made sure at this moment and the veil was removed from his mind?  What does it mean when Christ said:  ". . . Ye are brought back into my presence."

Verse 13 might indicate that the brother of Jared knew that he was sealed up unto eternal life (exaltation), by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood (D&C 131:5–6). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/calling-and-election?lang=eng 

"And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things [knowledge being the fruit of faith, in this instance, of seeing His embodied finger] ye are redeemed from the fall [redemption with knowledge arising from this level of faith is eternal life]; therefore ye are brought back into my presence [eternal life and exaltation]; therefore I show myself unto you [His full physical presence with a description of His complete earthly mission]." The element of priesthood is represented by brother of Jared's reference to God's power.