Forgiveness and Consequences

[MorningStar]

My husband has taught several lessons on forgiveness this year and the same people ask, "What if they did this to you?"

I think sometimes we have a hard time distinguishing between giving consequences and refusing to forgive. A friend of mine gave her 1st husband many chances, waiting for him to change, but he kept cheating on her and it was damaging her. She loved him, but she finally told him that she couldn't be with him anymore. This doesn't mean she doesn't forgive him. It is a consequence of his actions. I don't think Heavenly Father expects people to stay in an abusive situation.

I think having revenge in your heart and wishing ill on others shows a lack of forgiveness, not protecting yourself from further harm. I think it was Brigham Young who said, "Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting it to kill someone else." Something to that effect. Forgiveness is for your own well being.

[NateHowe]

"Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit the earth." This is a commandment to live with humility, not an excuse to be a doormat for abusers. You can forgive completely without continually putting yourself in a position to be hurt repeatedly. Although we can control our own reaction to other people's imperfections, we cannot control their repentance process. Thus, sometimes we must forgive completely and remove ourselves completely from the situation at the same time.

[aranyborju]

I think that you hit the nail right on the head MorningStar. Well put.

[NeuroTypical]

Ah - one of my favorite topics!

I think sometimes we have a hard time distinguishing between giving consequences and refusing to forgive.

Absolutely.

What I also find happening a lot, are people having a hard time distinguishing the recipient of harm giving a consequence and the person giving harm earning a consequence.

Some of satan's best work has been to convince people that things are their fault when it really isn't. Satan plays innapropriate guilt like a master violinist plays a violin.

Example: He beat me and cheated on me, but I ended the marriage when I kicked him out and divorced him. It's my fault.

Example: I ruined my relationship with my brother, because I won't allow him to drink beer and swear in front of our 6 year old.

Example: I've failed my son. Now he's into porn, and he can't confess to the bishop or he won't be able to go on a mission. I should have kept closer tabs on him, stricter controls on the computer.

A wife divorcing an abusive husband isn't 'providing a consequence'. The consequence of abusing your wife are that you've wrecked your marriage - your fault. If you can't behave yourself and act like a responsible adult around kids, you've created a situation where good people won't let you be around their kids - your fault. If you allow the destructive poison of porn into your life, you have an addiction that must be overcome, and it might end up impacting your goals and hopes - the word 'fault' may not even apply if you've lost your ability to break the addiction.

You see this sort of misunderstanding all the time with abuse. Everything from "I deserved it and need to try harder", to "I can't tell anyone, he'll lose his job and be an outcast" to "I'm causing everyone so much misery about what he did to me, I need to just let it drop."

Satan wants us to fear guilt so much, we'll avoid reacting to sin in righteous ways. Satan perverts the beautiful healing ability to forgive, by claiming it's not real forgiveness unless it includes blindness to weakness, addictions, and danger.

Forgive the stong language, but to hell with satan. That's where he belongs.

Don't fear the righteous reaction. Meekness means patience, love, charity, and hope. It does not mean 'be a doormat and get walked all over'.

LM

[Traveler]

Forgiveness is closely linked to repentance. Part of forgiveness is the understanding through the spirit that the Christ has made “redemption” for all sins and thus we can be free from any ill affects of other’s sins. Perhaps the best example of forgiveness (as pointed out in President Faust’s April conference talk) was the Amish families that lost daughters in a brutal murder – yet reached out to the family of their murder to assist in their spiritual healing.

If anyone has difficulty forgiving someone that has wronged them or someone they love – Jesus pointed out that such a un-forgiver cannot themselves be forgiven by G-d. President Spencer W. Kimball pointed out that regardless of the trespass it is the greater sin not to forgive.

The last point concerning forgiveness – you can know you have forgiven someone when you finely are able to realize within yourself that you do not wish harm (or even spiritual condemnation) against those that trespassed against you. It is a matter of whose side you are on. Satan is the accuser of all and Jesus Christ is the advocate.

The Traveler

[tiancum]

I heard once that a sign of true forgiveness is that you turn the debt that the person has accrued with you, over to the Savior. It becomes their debt to Him. They owe us nothing, not even an apology.

[pushka]

I've found in recent years, that it is better to try to forgive and forget misdeeds done to you, as it is terrible to walk thru life with a bitter heart..

[NeuroTypical]

it is better to try to forgive and forget misdeeds done to you, as it is terrible to walk thru life with a bitter heart..

Forgive, yes. Forget, let's think about that one.

Perhaps it's best to forget 99% of the harms done to us. What good is it to keep a tally of the people who cut in line in front of us, or have done us some minor harm out of misunderstanding or immaturity or whatever? We're here on earth to learn and grow and make mistakes - that means harming people along the way. It's much easier to learn and grow when someone forgives you, and even easier still when nobody remembers what you did wrong last year. Forgetting a person's wrongs can be a charitable, Christlike gift we can give another.

Forgiveness is demanded of us. But forgetting is not - and here's why. We are commanded to judge righteous judgement about matters that impact ourselves and those within our stewardships. We're urged to keep good company, choose righteous friends, avoid evil. People can act in ways that give us insight into their character. We can gain a 'heads-up' on future behavior sometimes, based on watching the actions people make today. God does not want us to ignore this access to information. That other 1% - that 1% of serious, terrible danger - we must not forget it. We must not refuse to testify in courts because 'we've forgotten' the crime. We must not fail to protect our kids from further harm because 'we've forgotten' the past child abuse. We must not allow ourselves to be further victimized because someone is still in the grips of addiction, but 'we've forgotten' the harm they've caused.

Forgiveness is ALWAYS the best course. But forgetting? Maybe not always.

LM

[pushka]

LM, I agree with you...forgetting every little hurt done to you is okay, but the bigger, more important hurts you ought to recall, so that you can at least be aware of the dangers if you still wish to hang out with the people who hurt you.

[the_jason]

To me, "forget" means to no longer dwell on what happened and no longer think unkind thoughts toward the person. It's quite possible to forgive and forget, yet not trust the person. If someone treats my wife or kids unkindly I'm required to forgive them. I'm not required to continue associating with them.

[Moksha]

I imagine a lot of men would appreciate if their wives would forget about their mistakes of the past, rather than holding it as ammunition to be brought out whenever an argument ensues or a manipulation is sought.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I absolutely agree that forgiving and forgetting doesn't mean you have to leave yourself open to the same things happening again.

"Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting it to kill someone else."

I like that.

[MorningStar]

Thanks for your replies, everyone. I know you can't cut out everyone from your life who has wronged you, but some things are so harmful, it's all you can do. And I think when a person decides to leave their spouse and another decides to stay in the same situation, that doesn't mean that one of them is more forgiving than the other. A friend of mine has tremendous guilt over leaving her husband, but she has done everything she can and if she stays, she will be in danger. She feels like she is turning her back on him after everything he did for her through her chronic illness and now she is leaving him now that he has gone off the deep end. It's really heartbreaking to see, but I don't know how she could possibly stay. She still loves him though.

[MorningStar]

I imagine a lot of men would appreciate if their wives would forget about their mistakes of the past, rather than holding it as ammunition to be brought out whenever an argument ensues or a manipulation is sought.

I think that goes for men and women. People tend to throw past hurts in each other's faces.

[Iggy]

I imagine a lot of men would appreciate if their wives would forget about their mistakes of the past, rather than holding it as ammunition to be brought out whenever an argument ensues or a manipulation is sought.

I think that goes for men and women. People tend to throw past hurts in each other's faces.

That is because they haven't FORGIVEN them. Forgiveness has to be earned too you know.

Lets say that Wife has hurt Husband, she only asks forgiveness when he calls her on it. He forgives her, but she has not really repented of it. She is still doing the things that hurt him-but she isn't so blatant about it. He knows she really hasn't repented as she has not stopped 100%

To truly forgive someone, you will not throw the misdeed in their face during an argument or disagreement.

When people toss past misdeeds at each other - they really need to learn the art of disagreeing. That puts an end to the arguments and fights. You can disagree with your spouse without it turning into a fight.

In my opinion, when a disagreement turns into a fight it is because there is little or no respect for one another.

[Misshalfway]

When I feel weakest in this area... perhaps forgiving inappropriately (not understanding the concept fully) or better yet allowing bad treatment to continue, I think of how Captain Moroni would forgive. I look to his strength. His strength of self! He didn't allow injustice of any kind to go unanswered but he was meek and gentle and merciful all at the same time.

Misshalfway

PS. Hey Iggy! The "art of disagreeing" as you say. I think this should be a thread on its own. Beautiful!

[MorningStar]

That's a great idea! I think every couple should have ground rules for disagreeing. My best friend had some marriage problems when she first got married - they yelled a lot, she called him names, and I don't think it helped that some words in her culture that are fine are some of the worst things you can say to a person here. She was horrified when I explained to her what it means to call a man what she called her husband. Ugh. Either way, name calling is not productive.

Iggy, I had a situation where I felt like I couldn't forgive my cousin because he hadn't apologized, but then I heard a talk that said we are supposed to forgive whether the person is sorry or not. It took a long time for me to get over what he did, but I realized I am not required to be in the same room with him or expose my children to him. I did get to the point where I wished for him to have a happy life and not dwell on what he did anymore. For a long time I thought true forgiveness would be to invite him over, but I was wrong. :)

[Traveler]

Forgive and forget. We are open to anyone that would harm us - not just those we have experienced ill treatment.

The Holy Spirit guides us and keeps us safe - not the remembering of what others have done to us in the past. If it is a spirit of anger that has convinced someone to end a relationship, I doubt that there is forgiveness. On the other hand if the Holy Spirit indicates that it is time to forgive and move on when there is no effort to harm the other or take away any good thing that is a benefit to them then forgiveness has likely taken place as G-d would have it.

The Traveler

The Traveler

[Iggy]

That's a great idea! I think every couple should have ground rules for disagreeing. My best friend had some marriage problems when she first got married - they yelled a lot, she called him names, and I don't think it helped that some words in her culture that are fine are some of the worst things you can say to a person here. She was horrified when I explained to her what it means to call a man what she called her husband. Ugh. Either way, name calling is not productive.

Iggy, I had a situation where I felt like I couldn't forgive my cousin because he hadn't apologized, but then I heard a talk that said we are supposed to forgive whether the person is sorry or not. It took a long time for me to get over what he did, but I realized I am not required to be in the same room with him or expose my children to him. I did get to the point where I wished for him to have a happy life and not dwell on what he did anymore. For a long time I thought true forgiveness would be to invite him over, but I was wrong. :)

This is the scripture that I think of about foriving:

D&C 64: 7, 9-10, 13

7 Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, aforgive sins unto those who bconfess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not csinned unto ddeath.

• • •

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to aforgive one another; for he that bforgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will aforgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to bforgive all men.

• • •

13 And this ye shall do that God may be glorified—not because ye forgive not, having not compassion, but that ye may be justified in the eyes of the law, that ye may not aoffend him who is your lawgiver—