I need a good moan...

[Jamie123]

I'm happy that my wife and daughter have started being nice to me again, but I can't help thinking I'm being taken for a ride. My wife has now rented a nice apartment, and my daughter ("child") is staying with her over the summer vacation. My wife said to me the other day that she has counted all the money she has coming in and it's not enough to cover her rent. I asked her if that included the allowance I'm still paying her. She said no, and including that she might just have enough. Then she said that our daughter needs £550 to pay the deposit on the apartment she is renting for college next year. I told her I didn't have enough to pay it, so she said could I pay part of it and she would pay the rest? I asked her how she would get the money and she said she didn't know.

Well you can guess what I was thinking, can't you? Do you use the term "loan shark" over there? If she gets herself in trouble with one of those, which muggins do you think will be getting her out again? So I gave her the £550 (despite putting my account into the red) - after all it is for my daughter's education, fair enough.

But last Saturday I took them both over to Ikea at Reading to buy some furniture for the apartment. Fine, no problem. Everyone needs furniture. But while we were there (and this is what my "moan" is really about) they spent about £70 on stuffed animals. I asked them if this was really needed, but mostly kept my gob closed for fear of being put back into the dog house. It may be my wife's money, but whose going to be supporting her when her account is empty again?

While we were in the waiting room waiting for the furniture, I tried relieving the pressure by performing the "Octopus and Cat Show" with two of the stuffed toys, but was promptly told to shut up. *Sigh*

I wrote a resume for my wife so hopefully she can get a job, and I thought it would be a good idea to ask our curate to be a reference. Our curate is actually a canon at Guildford cathedral (maybe similar to a stake president's counsellor for you?) and thought that might add a bit of gravitas. However, when I approached the curate she told me she wasn't happy with the way my wife had been "giving everyone the run-around" and she might not write nice things about her if asked.  I didn't ask for details, but I can infer that there have been shenanigans that I don't know about.

Anyway if you read this far, thanks for listening. Moan over.

Edited June 19 by Jamie123
Typo

[zil2]

So sorry, Jamie.  I would have enjoyed the Octopus and Cat Show - what good are stuffed animals if you're not going to play with them?

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm happy that my wife and daughter have started being nice to me again, but I can't help thinking I'm being taken for a ride. My wife has now rented a nice apartment, and my daughter ("child") is staying with her over the summer vacation. My wife said to me the other day that she has counted all the money she has coming in and it's not enough to cover her rent. I asked her if that included the allowance I'm still paying her. She said no, and including that she might just have enough.

Yes, you're getting taken for a ride.  She has enough money.  But she's spending it on non-essentials.  She doesn't want to make the financial sacrifice.  So, she wants you to make the financial sacrifice.

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Then she said that our daughter needs £550 to pay the deposit on the apartment she is renting for college next year. I told her I didn't have enough to pay it, so she said could I pay part of it and she would pay the rest? I asked her how she would get the money and she said she didn't know.

Do your due diligence.  Be SURE that your daughter is actually attending school.  Be SURE what the tuition and rent is.

ALSO, be SURE that her degree will pay for itself eventually.  College is no longer about "education for the sake of education" and broadening your horizons.  It is about either indoctrination and/or career.  Too many degrees are only good for minimum wage jobs.  Seriously, there was a drive-by poster here on this forum who told us about her dream job.  But it only paid minimum wage.  Yet that job required a college degree.  Needless to say, she simply couldn't pay her student load debts.  She would have been better off if she never got her college degree.

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Well you can guess what I was thinking, can't you? Do you use the term "loan shark" over there? If she gets herself in trouble with one of those, which muggins do you think will be getting her out again? So I gave her the £550 (despite putting my account into the red) - after all it is for my daughter's education, fair enough.

Just double check.  I'm getting a vibe that your wife and daughter are scamming you.  And you're going to end up in the poor house over it because they tug at your heartstrings.

I also have little sympathy for people who don't work their way through school.   Neither I nor any of my siblings got a dime from our parents for college.  We all paid our own way through school.  None of us went into debt.

And I'm not paying anything toward my kids' education either.  They all pay their own tuition.  I do, however, allow them to live in our home until they get their degree.  So, there's that.  This limits where they can go to school.  But there really isn't much of a difference.  A piece of paper is a piece of paper.  But the effort that you put into studying is what makes or breaks the education you get.

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

But last Saturday I took them both over to Ikea at Reading to buy some furniture for the apartment. Fine, no problem. Everyone needs furniture.

I disagree.  Maybe this is a throwback to my days in Korea, but no, you don't need furniture.  That is a luxury.  Get a simple foam mattress and some sheets/blankets.  That's all.

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

But while we were there (and this is what my "moan" is really about) they spent about £70 on stuffed animals. I asked them if this was really needed, but mostly kept my gob closed for fear of being put back into the dog house. It may be my wife's money, but whose going to be supporting her when her account is empty again?

This is exactly the kind of thing I mean when I say "non-essentials."  That is simply crazy.  There is nothing wrong with being poor. In fact, I think of it as a rite-of-passage for recently minted adults to be dirt poor for a while.  They learn what it is to run out of money and wonder how they're going to eat.  They learn to figure out things that they never thought of doing.

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

While we were in the waiting room waiting for the furniture, I tried relieving the pressure by performing the "Octopus and Cat Show" with two of the stuffed toys, but was promptly told to shut up. *Sigh*

BIG RED ALERT!!!

They are only being nice to you for your money (which you don't have a lot of).  They're fine with you going into debt to pay for their luxuries.  But they wouldn't think about giving up stuffed animals while forbidding you to play with them.

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I wrote a resume for my wife so hopefully she can get a job, and I thought it would be a good idea to ask our curate to be a reference. Our curate is actually a canon at Guildford cathedral (maybe similar to a stake president's counsellor for you?) and thought that might add a bit of gravitas. However, when I approached the curate she told me she wasn't happy with the way my wife had been "giving everyone the run-around" and she might not write nice things about her if asked.  I didn't ask for details, but I can infer that there have been shenanigans that I don't know about.

I didn't need the curate's input to get that impression.  Seriously, dude.  There are red flags all over this thing.

I highly doubt that she is actually going to school.  You don't have to believe me.  It is just a gut reaction after all.  But I'd do my due diligence, if I were you.

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Anyway if you read this far, thanks for listening. Moan over.

Any time.

Edited June 19 by Carborendum

[Vort]

I have to agree with Carb. In the MGTOW Playbook, this is Red Pill 101. I honor your efforts to support your daughter and your wife, even (especially) if they're ungrateful. I feel confident that our Father in heaven also honors your efforts. But I think you would be happier not to allow your family to take unfair advantage of you, and in the long run, I think they will also be happier.

[Jamie123]

I'm afraid I haven't taken anyone's advice and it's got worse. This afternoon my wife texted me again to say would I give her a "one off" payment of £900. I was shocked, and told her I would need to think about it. Then I remembered the car insurance is coming up and that will be £700, and I am already in big debt. She said not to worry and she would get the money "somehow" and I asked her "how, by going to a loan shark?" She said she would " never sink that low" and if I couldn't do it then don't worry, and I said I always could, just at the expense of going deeper into debt and more stress. She said not to worry and it was her responsibility and she would get the money "somehow" and I said "what are you planning to do, sell your body on the street?" That went down like a lead balloon. She kept saying then that she didn't want anything from me ever again and she would never ask for another penny, and (well you know what guilty conscience is like) I got straight online and transferred her £900. I'm getting dangerously close to my overdraft limit now. But I haven't a lot of faith in my wife's ability get money "somehow", and if she suffers so does my daughter (or "child" I should say).

The good news is i get my salary Wednesday, but I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get professional help. I can't go on like this.

[zil2]

So sorry, Jamie.  Can't imagine how hard this is for you.

2 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get professional help. I can't go on like this.

That sounds like a good idea.

[old]

For whatever it's worth (probably less than 2 cents); women respect strong, firm men. Why? Well because instinctively women are the weaker sex. From an ontological perspective both men and women have equal worth in the eyes of God, however God created men to lead as the head and women to follow men's lead as the heart (and when necessary point the head in the correct direction).

There are things men do for that are detrimental to their own destruction. There is something as confiding too much in your wife; when that happens the wife feels like a mother rather than a wife.

Women want their husbands to LEAD.  Leading doesn't mean being a total jerk, abusive, etc. nor does it mean being a doormat. Leading means being out in front, setting the tone, the direction, the vision, the example. It's a heavy responsibility and not one to be taken lightly.

This isn't MGTOW 101 b/c just as much as women need men to lead, men need women to follow to be good leaders. Men and women help each other in their God ordained roles and responsibilities.

The first thing to being a good leader is learning to lead and not being lead.  Learning to solicit feedback from those you lead but not make that feedback the lead. It is about not caring but caring.

Leading means you don't really care what they think of you or about you, but that you care about their welfare, their souls.  Everything you do is out of care for them, not out of you but that you don't care about how they feel about you.

Because a leader cares about the long-term vision sometimes actions and decisions will lead to short-term pain while working for the long-term goal. And sometime when leadership has broken down, those being lead are cynical about the leaders care for them, they are rebellious, they do things to hurt the leader, to tear him down.

[old]

For whatever it's worth.  Do the things that are in the best long-term interest of your wife and your daughter for THEIR sake.  Take your own ego, your own self out of it; selfish desires, passions of depression, being low, not feeling good enough etc.

Remove all those passions that are clouding your vision. Remove the passion of fear of loss, that if you do this thing or that thing you will lose your wife and lose your daughter.  A good leader can NEVER lead when fear of loss clouds his judgement. A good leader is first in control of himself; he is a good following to another leader (find a spiritual father and learn to follow a spiritual father).

Pray to God, what is it that I should be doing for the best long-term interest both spiritually and physically for them?

And then once you have that vision.

Execute on it.

Never waver, never doubt, never have fear. Know that what you are doing is out of care for your wife and your daughter, for their long-term best interest.

If that requires saying N-O to more money. Then do it. And if the consequences of your actions acting in the best interest for the long-term salvation of your wife and daughter means that your wife tells you "I'm done with you and I'm divorcing you", then STILL do it. 

Sacrifice yourself for them. And that sacrifice MAY be a sacrifice of letting your wife divorce you due to you standing firm in decisions you make.  God willing it won't be and with God's help, your wife will truly understand and know that you are the best representation of Christ in her life and that she will never find anyone else in this world who can reflect the image of God, the image of Christ to her as you are able to do.  And God willing and with His help, do that and there is a possibility that she will come running back.

Edited Monday at 12:34 AM by old

[Carborendum]

@Jamie123, I'd add a comment to the following advice from Old.

18 hours ago, old said:

If that requires saying N-O to more money. Then do it. And if the consequences of your actions acting in the best interest for the long-term salvation of your wife and daughter means that your wife tells you "I'm done with you and I'm divorcing you", then STILL do it. 

When you say "no more money."  You need to state that from an attitude of strength. There is a HUGE difference between "I can't" vs "I won't".  You may even say "I refuse."  If you say that you can't, then that just gives them more fodder to believe you're weak and you were never a good provider.

However, before a magistrate, make yourself out to be as poor as possible. 

The thing about budgeting is that it is rarely a question of how much money you have.  It is a question of priorities.  We choose what the priorities are.  And if keeping a roof over your head is a higher priority than furnishing your daughter's apartment, then she doesn't get her apartment furnished.

And contrary to popular opinion, a college education is not as important as it used to be.  It certainly isn't worth losing your house.  (This is coming from a man who chose homelessness instead of delaying school -- but I made it all work).

Remember, there are no solutions.  There are only trade-offs where we have to choose values and priorities.

Edited Monday at 06:55 PM by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

16 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get professional help.

I think this is probably the best advice this thread has had to offer so far.  I don't know what the separation and divorce laws are like where you live.  Depending on the U.S. state, there might be legal complications or divorce proceeding harm you could do to yourself by making these sorts of financial decisions without a professional's help.

You can't make there be a marriage or a family.  You can only do your half/your third.  I'm sorry.

[LDSGator]

46 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I think this is probably the best advice this thread has had to offer so far.  I don't know what the separation and divorce laws are like where you live.  Depending on the U.S. state, there might be legal complications or divorce proceeding harm you could do to yourself by making these sorts of financial decisions without a professional's help.

You can't make there be a marriage or a family.  You can only do your half/your third.  I'm sorry.

Agreed. I’m so sorry you are going through this @Jamie123. 

[Vort]

Jamie, you've been a list member for a long time now. We've grown quite fond of you. Please remember that any advice or suggestions you receive (at least from us fellow old-timers) is given in a spirit of brotherly love and affection, with no critical intent. Heaven knows we all find ourselves in a pickle from time to time.

Salvation is a rope, not a pole. You cannot push people to be saved; you can only pull them in. That means that you yourself must be standing in a safe place, on firm ground, before you can help them. As the stewardesses always say pre-flight, put on your own oxygen mask before helping others with theirs. That includes masking up your children.

Knowing nothing about your situation but what I've read here, it sounds to me like you're being leeched off of and sucked dry. You cannot control the actions or decisions of your wife or daughter, but you can at least make sure that your own private house is in order. Your wife says that she can take care of the financial thing? Let her. Let Her. You're in a hole, and you need to quit digging. This is literally not your problem, even though it feels like it is.

Professional help might be a great idea. I am distrustful of many who call themselves experts, but it sounds like you're in a financial death spiral, so maybe it's exactly what you need. Whether it's professional help or otherwise, please get help, my friend. There are many people, both on the internet (in this forum) and, I am sure, in real life who love and care about you and want to see you happy. Figure out a good path to go, then make the hard decisions required to walk that path, even if it means saying "no" to your wife or your daughter. Keep on keeping on. And if you can find it in your heart, please keep us updated.