Need help with a delicate situation

[Carborendum]

Surprise to absolutely no one on this board, I'm not the most tactful person in the world.  But at least I am trying to approach delicate situations with a little more caution.  So, I'm asking for advice.

We've taken in a niece into our household.  This was an agreement between my wife and me with the niece's parents.

The intent was to give Niece an opportunity to make new friends.  In her home ward and school, they don't have a whole lot of people her age.  This means that she has zero social life.  Since she's less than a year younger than our younger daughter, we all thought it would be great to have her spend some time with us and to experience our ward and school.

We all had a discussion and figured out finances and other arrangements.  Blah-blah.  Bish-bam-boom, she's here now.

For the past couple of months, I've seen her bloom socially, spiritually, and intellectually.  I had no idea why she was labelled as autistic.  I had no idea why she was given a lot of other labels that chained her down.  It seems that her parents have basically told her that she "can't".  So she believed she couldn't do anything.  She was talked into believing she was autistic and mentally retarded and a bunch of other stuff.

After about a month, she was able to do schoolwork on her own. She was learning to drive a stick.  She's learning how to cook.  She's learning how to start a business.  A whole lot more...

But now her mom has decided that she can't learn how to drive a stick because it is too complicated. She doesn't realize that she's already gone through about 30% of the regimen that I've developed to teach the stick.  And she's a really fast learner.  But her mom is convinced that she can't learn to drive a stick.  So, she wants me to stop teaching her.

Then I had to point out to my wife that if she doesn't learn, then she'll have to return home because we're not going to dive her to school.  That's why we teach our kids to learn to drive.

I was then informed that they are going to buy her a car...

...

They absolutely cannot afford it.  They are going to go bankrupt.  I don't know if I can be part of that plan.  Options:

• They go bankrupt trying to keep up with us financially.
• Have her go back to her parents and believe that she needs to be dependent on them forever.

I'm looking for another way out.  I'd like to have a talk with her parents.  But I need to make sure that it is done as tactfully as possible.

Help?

[zil2]

NOTE: It's probably no use me writing this as I think tact is for weenies, but here it is anyway - just keep in mind the source.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

she's already gone through about 30% of the regimen that I've developed to teach the stick.  And she's a really fast learner.

What's mom's response to these two statements?  If you haven't told her these two things, that should be your first response.  If you haven't laid out all the ways in which the daughter has flourished, with concrete examples, do so.

Is mom your wife's sister, or your wife's sister-in-law?  Where's the girl's father in all this?  Could you have more luck talking to him?

As to the car... Is she not going to the same school as your daughter?  Can she not ride with your daughter?  (Or her mother be made to believe that's what will happen?  )  Can you not tell her parents there is neither a need nor room for another car?  Can't you point out that they can't afford it?  (We don't know the personalities of these folks (beyond their treatment of their daughter), so it's hard to say what you can / can't talk about, let alone how...)  Some possible approaches to the car question:

• Ask her to map out how they're going to afford it (with luck this would force her to face the fact that she can't)
• Point out that it teaches the daughter the wrong lesson - to rely on others when she could instead earn (there's so much more satisfaction and development in earning than in receiving a gift)
• Point out that if the girl is responsible enough to own, care for, and drive an automatic, she's capable of learning to drive a stick   (It's not that complicated!) (I suppose this could backfire and they could decide daughter isn't capable of either and take her back... )
• Point out that nearly everyone in Europe drives a stick and they manage to survive

If the girl has visibly changed, is there any way to arrange for mom to observe that from a distance, without the girl aware mom is there?

Perhaps mom actually wants a permanent baby - in which case, you can't solve this, mom needs a therapist...

As someone who, in my now 4-decades-later wisdom, basically ruined my own life by believing something my mom said when I was 17 or 18 - pray hard.  Pray really, really hard for God to intervene in the life of this child.  Pray for him to teach the child's mother that His daughter (your niece) is capable and should be challenged to reach her full potential.  She is, after all, a daughter of God, and His grace is sufficient for both of them (mom and daughter).  Hard and challenging times are coming - mom should be building courage and confidence in her daughter, not dependence and doubt.  Feel free to use me as an example - my mom's fear and doubt stopped me from doing what I could have soared at, had I put my mind to it. I didn't try because Mom said not to.  This woman does not want to be that mom.  (Or she shouldn't, anyway.  And if she does, she should be ashamed of herself.)  [NOTE: I'm sure my mom had no idea what she was doing, and didn't intend it the way it worked out, but still.]

Edited October 24, 2024 by zil2

[Manners Matter]

Mom has issues which is quite unfortunate. What if the niece tells the mom how much she's loving learning all these things? Maybe that would help the mom back off? Another option might be to let others do the talking? For instance: 

[Carborendum]

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

What's mom's response to these two statements?  If you haven't told her these two things, that should be your first response.  If you haven't laid out all the ways in which the daughter has flourished, with concrete examples, do so.

I just learned about the objection to the stick this morning.  I'm formulating right now.  But yes, I should bring this up.

We've told them about her scholastics.  But it seems to be just white noise to the mom.  I guess I'll try to emphasize it more and we'll see how it goes.

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Is mom your wife's sister, or your wife's sister-in-law?  Where's the girl's father in all this?  Could you have more luck talking to him?

The father and my wife are siblings.

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

As to the car... Is she not going to the same school as your daughter?  Can she not ride with your daughter?  (Or her mother be made to believe that's what will happen? )

My daughter will graduate soon, possibly early.

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Can you not tell her parents there is neither a need nor room for another car?

This might very well be a good talking point.  We truly are tight on space.

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Can't you point out that they can't afford it?

The mom and her entire side of the family don't understand what it means to live within their means.

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Some possible approaches to the car question:

• Ask her to map out how they're going to afford it (with luck this would force her to face the fact that she can't)
• Point out that it teaches the daughter the wrong lesson - to rely on others when she could instead earn (there's so much more satisfaction and development in earning than in receiving a gift)
• Point out that if the girl is responsible enough to own, care for, and drive an automatic, she's capable of learning to drive a stick   (It's not that complicated!) (I suppose this could backfire and they could decide daughter isn't capable of either and take her back... )
• Point out that nearly everyone in Europe drives a stick and they manage to survive

...yeah...

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

If the girl has visibly changed, is there any way to arrange for mom to observe that from a distance, without the girl aware mom is there?

We recently had a family reunion.  After five minutes with her mom, she went from the happy, energetic girl we'd become accustomed to, and turned into the sad victim who can't do anything without her parents.  Interestingly, when she came back home, she became the determined go-getter.  She doesn't even need my help with math.

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Perhaps mom actually wants a permanent baby - in which case, you can't solve this, mom needs a therapist...

I'm not sure if that is it.  I had even considered that she has the psychological equivalent of Munchausen by Proxy syndrome.  But it is not quite that.  It's more like she's drunk the cool aid that every child needs to be medicated because everyone has a condition of some kind.  Part of it is that she does actually have a truly handicapped child (a younger brother).  So, that has made her extra observant for any symptoms of anything.  And she immediately jumps to the worst possible conclusions.  Instead of a simple misunderstanding of instructions... she must be autistic.

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

As someone who, in my now 4-decades-later wisdom, basically ruined my own life by believing something my mom said when I was 17 or 18 - pray hard.  Pray really, really hard for God to intervene in the life of this child.  Pray for him to teach the child's mother that His daughter (your niece) is capable and should be challenged to reach her full potential.  She is, after all, a daughter of God, and His grace is sufficient for both of them (mom and daughter).  Hard and challenging times are coming - mom should be building courage and confidence in her daughter, not dependence and doubt.  Feel free to use me as an example - my mom's fear and doubt stopped me from doing what I could have soared at, had I put my mind to it. I didn't try because Mom said not to.  This woman does not want to be that mom.  (Or she shouldn't, anyway.  And if she does, she should be ashamed of herself.)  [NOTE: I'm sure my mom had no idea what she was doing, and didn't intend it the way it worked out, but still.]

Thanks.  I'll try to include that as part of the backdrop of the conversation.

[zil2]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

After five minutes with her mom, she went from the happy, energetic girl we'd become accustomed to, and turned into the sad victim who can't do anything without her parents.

There is something about being with your parents that psychologically turns you back into a child (until you've managed to work past this yourself, which certainly isn't going to happen before you reach adulthood and full independence).

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Thanks.  I'll try to include that as part of the backdrop of the conversation.

It's a sad thing to realize that the biggest mistake you ever made was to believe your mom and follow her counsel.

I fear this mom may be beyond your influence.  But I hope not.  Or at least, I hope that God will pour out light on the situation.

[Ironhold]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I had no idea why she was labelled as autistic. 

Autism is a spectrum. 

Individuals who are high-functioning autistic, like myself, tend to present as "normal" under casual contact. It takes knowing us for the long term for most people to realize what our "tells" are and what issues we as individuals may or may not be facing. In my case, for example, when I get stressed out I tend to develop various nervous tics and also get drained emotionally. 

The problem, however, is that few people understand what autism actually is or what it actually entails. Most people hear "autism" and flash to something like "Rain Man" or "Forrest Gump" as a frame of reference, then act accordingly. Her mother is likely doing the same and assuming that autism = damaged in some fashion. 

Now, there are a *lot* of physical, mental, and emotional health conditions that often go hand-in-hand with autism spectrum. This can include things like depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and antisocial tendencies. When a person who is on the spectrum is stressed out, these health conditions can be supercharged in some fashion. 

It's entirely possible that her mother was just *that* toxic a person, to where she was putting your niece under so much stress your niece was breaking under the load and essentially regressing into the behaviors that her mother saw as retroactively "justifying" the toxic behavior. It would also explain why she's thriving while living with you, as you are giving her the space to be who she is. 

As far as learning to drive a stick goes - that's what I was taught on. It was massively frustrating at first, especially since I hadn't yet been diagnosed and so some of the people who taught me were blaming me when I didn't always get it right, but successfully drove sticks for several years until an ankle injury made it too painful to work the clutch. 

I would, if possible, try to have niece screened by a different mental health professional, with you explaining to that person what you've posted here and what we've been telling you as feedback. 

[NeuroTypical]

God bless you and your efforts @Carborendum.

That said, the parents will and should win every single argument.  You are helping, you are not deciding.  Parents decide.  And whatever they decide goes.

Given the miraculous healthy and positive growth you're saying this girl is experiencing, I would literally suck up to the parents in any way possible to keep this arrangement going.   

Oh - and their bankruptcy isn't on you.   There's no "part of that plan", there's their decisions and their consequences.  You are doing the Lord's work with the girl.  It's not your job to fix the parents.  Let your light so shine, and leave it at that.

Edited October 24, 2024 by NeuroTypical

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

The problem, however, is that few people understand what autism actually is or what it actually entails. Most people hear "autism" and flash to something like "Rain Man" or "Forrest Gump" as a frame of reference, then act accordingly. Her mother is likely doing the same and assuming that autism = damaged in some fashion.

The upside of naming behaviors is that now we have a label to attach to it! Now we can DO something about it! Now it's a recognized thing! The downside, of course, is that now we put it into this box and treat it in this manner, because that is Just What One Does.

I suspect we lose as much as, or more than, we gain when we start applying labels. This is doubly true with some huge pop-psy catch-all term like "autism".

[Phoenix_person]

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

It's more like she's drunk the cool aid that every child needs to be medicated because everyone has a condition of some kind.  Part of it is that she does actually have a truly handicapped child (a younger brother).  So, that has made her extra observant for any symptoms of anything.  And she immediately jumps to the worst possible conclusions.  Instead of a simple misunderstanding of instructions... she must be autistic

Autism is a tricky thing, for reasons that @Ironhold did an excellent job of explaining. I'd say that an overwhelming majority of people with noticeable autistic traits probably fit the high-functioning model like Ironhold and I do. A lot of us don't need a ton of every day support. We don't typically have meltdowns or other distruptive behaviors. On the contrary, we're usually masking in order to appear more "normal" than we really are. And yes, we're generally very good at learning new things. I was reading encyclopedias recreationally at age 8. That being said, there are other challenges. We often struggle with social skills and personal relationships. Behavioral disorders like OCD (hyperfixating on EVERYTHING) and tourettes syndrome are now considered autistic traits, among several others. If it seems like "everybody is autistic these days", it's because our understanding of the autism spectrum has progressed tremendously in recent decades. It's getting to the point where you stop wondering if "gifted" kids are autistic and instead wonder what kind of autistic they are. Some people internalize these traits too much, to be sure, but understanding the various parts of the spectrum can have tremendous benefits to how we approach childhood development and education, especially for kids on IEPs (like my son). And we've been doing this for years. I could read complete sentences before I could speak in them. When I was in second grade, I was sent to the library while the rest of the class did their reading lessons because I was already reading at a 4th grade level. So I'd read 4th grade books in the library with a couple of my "gifted" classmates.

5 hours ago, Vort said:

The upside of naming behaviors is that now we have a label to attach to it! Now we can DO something about it! Now it's a recognized thing! The downside, of course, is that now we put it into this box and treat it in this manner, because that is Just What One Does.

I suspect we lose as much as, or more than, we gain when we start applying labels. This is doubly true with some huge pop-psy catch-all term like "autism".

The whole point of organizing autistic behaviors into a spectrum is to *avoid* labels and boxes. We're not quite there yet, but the fact that we're able to connect traits that we previously thought unrelated, like OCD and sensory processing disorder, is a huge step in the right direction. Autism support is less about treating an ailment and more about developing strengths and promoting healthy behaviors.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Autism is a tricky thing, for reasons that @Ironhold did an excellent job of explaining. I'd say that an overwhelming majority of people with noticeable autistic traits probably fit the high-functioning model like Ironhold and I do. A lot of us don't need a ton of every day support. We don't typically have meltdowns or other distruptive behaviors. On the contrary, we're usually masking in order to appear more "normal" than we really are. And yes, we're generally very good at learning new things. I was reading encyclopedias recreationally at age 8.

Some years ago, I heard or read someone say (not in exactly these words) that Asperger's Syndrome and what we call "autism" were essentially exaggerations of the male mind. The more I think about this, the more I believe it.

There are not really "masculine" traits and "feminine" traits. There are human traits, shared by members of each sex. But it is undeniable that certain traits are more strongly correlated with men, and other traits more strongly correlated with women. Among many other traits, male-correlated traits might include the following:

• Delayed speech compared to the average (i.e. girls)
• Delayed motor skills compared to the average
• Delayed emotional awareness compared to the average
• Relative (compared to girls) ignorance or unawareness of subtle facial signs or body language
• Considering sustained eye contact as a challenge
• Tendency to excel in spatially related awareness, quantitative reasoning, and rote memorization of factual/technical things of personal interest
• Analyzing things in concrete, sometimes simplistic, terms
• Learning as a kinesthetic activity

By some fantastic coincidence, such traits are also typical of those diagnosed with so-called Asperger's Syndrome.

I am not saying that autism is not real. I am suggesting that much of what we consider the disorder called Asperger's Syndrome, itself considered a relatively mild form of autism, is not a disorder at all. It is on the spectrum of normal, healthy human psychology and behavior, though perhaps tilted toward certain traits more commonly associated with boys (and men).

By another astounding coincidence, in my lifetime I have seen a change from roughly 2/3 of valedictorians being male when I was a child to roughly 2/3 of valedictorians being female today. If education used to be tilted in favor of boys, those days are long past, and the current educational climate is undoubtedly tilted toward girls. This has reached the point that regular, long-recognized "boy" behavior is openly demonized as a behavioral deficiency, and boys are medicated at an alarming rate in an effort to make them act more like girls. This is beyond deplorable; this is horrific.

(For the record: I was a strange little boy, atypical in some ways. As a seven-year-old, I liked nothing better than to sit and read our World Book Encyclopedia for hours on end. Sure, I liked riding my bike and climbing trees outside and roughhousing. But I was also extremely affectionate, especially to my parents and my baby sisters. I spent many hours of my childhood wishing I could be married and wondering what my wife would be like. I was well aware that making such things public would have been humiliating, so I never told anyone. The point is, I do not look back on my childhood and resent how my personal behavior was later demonized. If I had such feelings, they would be in support of my younger brother, who was much more "masculine" than me in the areas I mentioned above. Had we grown up a generation or two later, I am quite sure he would have been diagnosed as learning-disabled and ADHD, and likely prescribed psychoactive medication to make him "normal".)

2 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

It's getting to the point where you stop wondering if "gifted" kids are autistic and instead wonder what kind of autistic they are. Some people internalize these traits too much, to be sure, but understanding the various parts of the spectrum can have tremendous benefits to how we approach childhood development and education, especially for kids on IEPs (like my son). And we've been doing this for years. I could read complete sentences before I could speak in them. When I was in second grade, I was sent to the library while the rest of the class did their reading lessons because I was already reading at a 4th grade level. So I'd read 4th grade books in the library with a couple of my "gifted" classmates.

Exactly. You can't just be smart.

2 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

The whole point of organizing autistic behaviors into a spectrum is to *avoid* labels and boxes. We're not quite there yet, but the fact that we're able to connect traits that we previously thought unrelated, like OCD and sensory processing disorder, is a huge step in the right direction. Autism support is less about treating an ailment and more about developing strengths and promoting healthy behaviors.

I disagree that the point is to avoid labeling. That is clearly not true; it's literally all about labeling. But on the other hand, I don't believe modern psychology is the result of a conscious and coordinated attack on boys and boyish behavior. Unconscious, uncoordinated attack, maybe. But mostly it's a result of really horrible models of mind and behavior, garbage that is apparently invented by PhD students to get published and allow them to ease into academia. As far as I can determine, there is almost no science being done today in psychology or sociology, and there has not been for probably two full generations, most of my lifetime.

One of the reasons I like Jordan Peterson so much is because he is an actually smart guy who understands science and tries to bring that perspective into psychology. I have known a handful of psychologists and counselors, a few of them as friends. To a man (or woman; more women than men among my personal sample), they have been friendly, self-assured, and if we're being blunt, not especially smart. My sample has also been skewed, with practicing Latter-day Saints making up half or more of those I know. As a rule, they have been free with their diagnoses of behavior of various type, and a few have tried to back up their assertions with appeals to various models of mind and behavior. On the several occasions when I have tried to dig deeper and explore various aspects of what they're saying, they very quickly clammed up, and many (specifically, the women) got defensive. If I pressed, they immediately shut down and refused any more conversation on the topic. To be clear, my "pressing" involved asking them some specifics about what they had said and, in a few cases, gently pointing out discrepancies. That was an absolute no-go with every last one. Apparently, counselors and psychologists are to be accepted at face value, and are never ever ever under any circumstances to be asked to explain, elaborate on, or (heaven forbid!) justify the wisdom in their words. They are to be treated as sacred muses of the gods.

tl;dr I'm not sold on the whole autism model. I believe that autism is a real thing, or more correctly, a group of real and perhaps, in some cases, related behaviors and conditions, but understood only very poorly if at all, and polluted by nonsensical psychological models in vogue today to the point that little real, effective treatment goes on.

[Phoenix_person]

7 hours ago, Vort said:

I am not saying that autism is not real. I am suggesting that much of what we consider the disorder called Asperger's Syndrome, itself considered a relatively mild form of autism, is not a disorder at all. It is on the spectrum of normal, healthy human psychology and behavior, though perhaps tilted toward certain traits more commonly associated with boys (and men).

For me, exploring my diagnosis as an adult helped me understand why a kid who should have been a straight A student struggled so much academically, yet scored an 1190 on the SAT without any studying or prep. My sister scored 990, and she WAS a straight A student who spent hours studying. This is very important to me as I have a son who just started middle school and has had an IEP since he was in kindergarten. I see so much of myself mirrored in him, and it's my responsibility to make sure I understand his needs as a student. One thing I noticed: he's a lot better at math than I was at his age. I was terrified when distance learning started and I realized I was going to be helping my son learn math concepts that I struggled tremendously with at his age. My mom actually pulled me out of school and homeschooled me through middle school because I struggled so much with the math curriculum of the 90s. The way math is taught has changed, though. You hear people complain about it all the time. "You can't just change math!" Well, they didn't. They just made it easier for some kids to understand. I don't know how useful common core for neurotypical kids, but it made it a lot easier for me to tutor him, and it helped that I was learning the basics with him. I think what frustrates a lot of parents about common core is that it's so different from how we learned math that we assume it's worse. But the reality is that most parents didn't bother to keep track of how math education has changed, and the way we learned math was based on root memorization, not actual understanding of how math works. So when kids start needing help with their math homework in middle school and high school (which isn't unique to younger generations), parents aren't equipped to help in the ways that their kids were taught. My son doesn't know the times table, but he can work out any multiplication problem in his head using methods he learned at school. It remains to be seen if he'll be any better at algebra than I was. If he's not, his mom is going to have to help him with that. 

7 hours ago, Vort said:

Exactly. You can't just be smart.

My mom thought my PDD was cured when my speech finally caught up to my classmates (around 4th grade, I think). She recognized that I was smart, as did all of my teachers. But they didn't apprethe fact that smart kids can have learning disorders. In fact, they often do, because traditionally we teach knowledge, not understanding. And the smart kids are smart because they have a burning need to *understand* the things that they're learning. That's why you can't just tell me that the mitichondria is the powerhouse of the cell. I need to know WHY. And what even is a mitochondria, aside from the powerhouse of the cell? How many people can answer THAT question off the top of their head (I can't right now, but there goes my entire morning 😜)? That's an ADHD trait, btw. A lot of people mistakingly believe that ADHD is people just mentally going "SQUIRREL!" all the time. That's actually a neurotypical trait. NTs see a squirrel and go "Squirrel!". NDs see a squirrel and start pondering the squirrel's personal backstory. Does it have little squirrelettes? How's its preperation for winter coming along? What drew it to THAT tree, specifically? Does it know there's a hawk two trees ove- oh no.

7 hours ago, Vort said:

I disagree that the point is to avoid labeling. That is clearly not true; it's literally all about labeling. But on the other hand, I don't believe modern psychology is the result of a conscious and coordinated attack on boys and boyish behavior. Unconscious, uncoordinated attack, maybe. But mostly it's a result of really horrible models of mind and behavior, garbage that is apparently invented by PhD students to get published and allow them to ease into academia. As far as I can determine, there is almost no science being done today in psychology or sociology, and there has not been for probably two full generations, most of my lifetime.

There's understanding the science and then there's understanding the solution. That gets tricky when we're talking about psychology because there are emotions involved, and emotions have a tendency to defy scientific convention. There's a stereotype that suggests that a lot of intellectually gifted people are emotionally stunted. The reality is people who are *actually* emotionally stunted are usually criminally insane. Most people confuse an inability to process emotion with an inability to experience emotion. It's an important distinction.

7 hours ago, Vort said:

tl;dr I'm not sold on the whole autism model. I believe that autism is a real thing, or more correctly, a group of real and perhaps, in some cases, related behaviors and conditions, but understood only very poorly if at all, and polluted by nonsensical psychological models in vogue today to the point that little real, effective treatment goes on.

I think the autism spectrum defies a lot of what we think we understand about human psychology, and I think the psychology field in general has yet to figure that out.

[Carborendum]

Let me tell you exactly what happened when I tutored her in math and I hope you (and others) will get an idea of what's happened.

She said that she was having trouble with math.  I began to instruct her.  With my instruction she was fine.  I was there as a security blanket when she had some questions of clarification.

When she came to the summary question for an entire unit, we read the question together.  She said she understood it.  I walked away to go to the bathroom.  By the time I was back, she had done it.

When I pointed that out (that she had done it all by herself) she was surprised and happy.  But immediately she fell into the victim mindset. "But I'll just forget it tomorrow."

"So?  Everyone forgets."  I explained that repetition and review are a natural part of study.  She was surprised at this knowledge.  I explained to her that she doesn't forget because she's stupid.  She forgets because she's human.  She just needs to review multiple times to get it.  That's how people learn.

A realization dawned on her.  We continued in conversation.  Once she realized that she's allowed to forget, and she's allowed to review, she found a new world in front of her.

The week before, she was absolutely convinced that she was stupid.  This past week, I asked her every day if she needed any math coaching.  She didn't.  She's doing fine now that she knows how to review material and refresh her memory.

The kicker is that she isn't really reviewing much.  She remembers it.  But now that she knows she's not retarded (which was what she interpreted when people told her she had autism) she now knows she can learn.  And guess what?  She doesn't display any autistic traits anymore... until she spends time with her mother again.

It was the very placement of a label on her that prevented her from learning on her own.

14 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

If it seems like "everybody is autistic these days", it's because our understanding of the autism spectrum has progressed tremendously in recent decades. It's getting to the point where you stop wondering if "gifted" kids are autistic and instead wonder what kind of autistic they are.

I have known people who were clinically diagnosed as autistic.  And they were extreme cases.  It is obvious that when some extreme conditions exist, we all have a sense of "that child ain't right."  But it is the application of that label to virtually everyone where I have to raise an objection.  It used to be that (to put some conceptual numbers to it) that of all the behaviors, they needed to be at least a 6 out of 10 to qualify as a "disorder." 

But today you "have a disorder" if it is at a 0.1 level.  That just ain't so.

When we introduce a spectrum, we need to be careful just what we define as inside that spectrum.  The circle graphic you posted is exactly what is wrong with it.  When everyone is autistic, then no one is autistic.  The label becomes meaningless.  Basically, we need to apply an analog of the Overton Window to medicine/psychology.  And the window has become too big.

3 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

For me, exploring my diagnosis as an adult helped me understand why a kid who should have been a straight A student struggled so much academically, yet scored an 1190 on the SAT without any studying or prep.

Interesting. That was true for me as well.  But I got an 1170. You beat me.

3 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

A lot of people mistakingly believe that ADHD is people just mentally going "SQUIRREL!" all the time. That's actually a neurotypical trait.

That's exactly what I think has been happening.

My daughter jokes around that whenever she mixes up something (spoken, read, or seen -- or even if she behaves in some strange way) she says, "Oh, I'm sorry.  I'm dyslexic."  This is because she's seen just how wide a net has been placed around the "autism spectrum" to the point where it is ridiculous.  So she (jokingly) figures that she can blame any negative trait on any "condition" and it will be perfectly acceptable.  Based on how we treat things nowadays, she's not entirely wrong.

When I compare that to my niece, I realize that she needs to learn some social graces and interpersonal skills.  But she is fully functional in all other ways.  That isn't autism.

Edited October 25, 2024 by Carborendum

[Vort]

Our experiences and viewpoints appear to have some significant areas of overlap. This is an example of not that:

2 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

But they didn't apprethe fact that smart kids can have learning disorders. In fact, they often do, because traditionally we teach knowledge, not understanding. And the smart kids are smart because they have a burning need to *understand* the things that they're learning. That's why you can't just tell me that the mitichondria is the powerhouse of the cell. I need to know WHY. And what even is a mitochondria, aside from the powerhouse of the cell? How many people can answer THAT question off the top of their head (I can't right now, but there goes my entire morning 😜)? That's an ADHD trait, btw.

The "learning disorders" of "smart kids" is that they want to understand things? I don't disagree with the base assertion, but do you see how absurd it is to call such a trait a "learning disorder"? For my family (my wife and children and me), homeschooling was an extended, decade-long opportunity to talk about such things at length, in many contexts, without worrying about end-of-week testing. My children learned about mitochondria in casual conversations, so that by the time they encountered them in textbooks or other readings, they had a base of understanding to build on.

ADHD means "Attention Deficit/Hyperactive Disorder". It is literally labeled a disorder from the get-go—that is, "an abnormal condition that affects the body's normal functions, causing distress, impairment, or suffering." And a trait of so-called ADHD is...that the "victim" of the "disorder" needs to understand why things work as they do.

This is clown world, bro.

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

She recognized that I was smart, as did all of my teachers. But they didn't appreciate the fact that smart kids can have learning disorders. In fact, they often do, because traditionally we teach knowledge, not understanding. And the smart kids are smart because they have a burning need to *understand* the things that they're learning.

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

The "learning disorders" of "smart kids" is that they want to understand things? I don't disagree with the base assertion, but do you see how absurd it is to call such a trait a "learning disorder"?

I'm kind of in between the two of you on this matter.  I've indicated a few times the problem I have with reading. 

With technical writing, I usually don't have a problem.  It is precisely written with proper punctuation, grammar, and elements of style make it easy to read.  Scriptures usually have similar traits.

With fiction/prose, the problem I have is that I can't really understand the sentence without proper emphasis, dynamics, pauses, and variation in pace.  And my brain can't seem to put it together until I properly figure all that out for the whole sentence.  So, with a sentence with any complexity, I read it and immediately go off into la-la land because I really have no idea what I just read.  But once I slow down and figure all that pacing, I can read it faster than anyone.  But with more understanding.

Other people easily/seamlessly interpret all that after they've read the whole sentence and move immediately onto the next sentence.  I can't.  I have to read it "correctly" or I can't move onto the next sentence.

So, it is certainly something that slows me down in my reading.  Some might consider that a handicap/disorder.  Labels being what they are...   But at the same time, I tend to get a better understanding and I retain more than others who've read the same book. 

-- My son both reads faster than anyone I know, and also has my level of retention or better.  Color me jealous.  Yes, I'd really like to read as fast as my son.  But I'm the slowest reader in my family except for my 13 yo.

[zil2]

46 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

When I pointed that out (that she had done it all by herself) she was surprised and happy.  But immediately she fell into the victim mindset. "But I'll just forget it tomorrow."

"So?  Everyone forgets."  I explained that repetition and review are a natural part of study.  She was surprised at this knowledge.  I explained to her that she doesn't forget because she's stupid.  She forgets because she's human.  She just needs to review multiple times to get it.  That's how people learn.

A realization dawned on her.  We continued in conversation.  Once she realized that she's allowed to forget, and she's allowed to review, she found a new world in front of her.

The week before, she was absolutely convinced that she was stupid.  This past week, I asked her every day if she needed any math coaching.  She didn't.  She's doing fine now that she knows how to review material and refresh her memory.

The kicker is that she isn't really reviewing much.  She remembers it.  But now that she knows she's not retarded (which was what she interpreted when people told her she had autism) she now knows she can learn.  And guess what?  She doesn't display any autistic traits anymore... until she spends time with her mother again.

This may suggest that her mother is demanding perfection from the first try and berating failure - a hideous thing to do to anyone - learning to fail well is a lesson everyone should be taught from day one.

You're making me weep for this child.  Perhaps her mother wants a permanent dependent.  Perhaps her mother demands she be perfect in every way and on every attempt.  Either way, it's soul-destroying for the child...

I know: one side of the story, incomplete, jumping to assumptions, but from what little I know, it sure sounds like a tragedy.

Edited October 25, 2024 by zil2

[Ironhold]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Our experiences and viewpoints appear to have some significant areas of overlap. This is an example of not that:

The "learning disorders" of "smart kids" is that they want to understand things? I don't disagree with the base assertion, but do you see how absurd it is to call such a trait a "learning disorder"? For my family (my wife and children and me), homeschooling was an extended, decade-long opportunity to talk about such things at length, in many contexts, without worrying about end-of-week testing. My children learned about mitochondria in casual conversations, so that by the time they encountered them in textbooks or other readings, they had a base of understanding to build on.

ADHD means "Attention Deficit/Hyperactive Disorder". It is literally labeled a disorder from the get-go—that is, "an abnormal condition that affects the body's normal functions, causing distress, impairment, or suffering." And a trait of so-called ADHD is...that the "victim" of the "disorder" needs to understand why things work as they do.

This is clown world, bro.

When I was a kid, I was so far ahead of my peers in various fields that I spent a lot of time bored. 

I hadn't been diagnosed with anything at the time due to the then-existing stereotypes, and so whenever I would doodle or daydream to cure that boredom I got it coming and going. 

It was especially bad in 3rd grade, when I had a toxic teacher and my parents were so busy chewing me out for my tics manifesting and my attempts to relieve my boredom that they almost missed how bad my teacher was and that her actions were part of what I was dealing with that year. 

Even then, it still didn't register with my parents that perhaps I should go see someone. Rather, I was "gifted" and so they just assumed I was hyper-smart and on top of everything. Cue heaping amounts of mental and emotional trauma as I spent my youth getting ripped apart, accused of lying, or other such things because I didn't process the world the same way my parents & older siblings did and didn't react to it the same way, either. They just assumed that I was a liar, that I was exaggerating various health issues, and that this was all in service of my being a slacker. 

It took all of my nieces and nephews coming up on the spectrum for my parents to realize that maybe, just maybe, me and my siblings were on the spectrum as well. 

I've been diagnosed, as has one of my two brothers. We don't know about the other one. 

In hindsight we now know that dad is likely autistic, with his time in the Army giving him the discipline he needed to compensate. 

I suspect that mom is as well, but whenever I bring it up she gets defensive. 

[Ironhold]

36 minutes ago, zil2 said:

This may suggest that her mother is demanding perfection from the first try and berating failure - a hideous thing to do to anyone - learning to fail well is a lesson everyone should be taught from day one.

You're making me weep for this child.  Perhaps her mother wants a permanent dependent.  Perhaps her mother demands she be perfect in every way and on every attempt.  Either way, it's soul-destroying for the child...

I know, one side of the story, incomplete, jumping to assumptions, but from what little I know, it sure sounds like a tragedy.

That's what I'm thinking as well. The mom utterly misinterpreted the label, gave up on the daughter, and things became a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

I can only imagine how much better my life would have been if I had been diagnosed in my teens and gotten the support I needed accordingly. 

[Ironhold]

53 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'm kind of in between the two of you on this matter.  I've indicated a few times the problem I have with reading. 

With technical writing, I usually don't have a problem.  It is precisely written with proper punctuation, grammar, and elements of style make it easy to read.  Scriptures usually have similar traits.

With fiction/prose, the problem I have is that I can't really understand the sentence without proper emphasis, dynamics, pauses, and variation in pace.  And my brain can't seem to put it together until I properly figure all that out for the whole sentence.  So, with a sentence with any complexity, I read it and immediately go off into la-la land because I really have no idea what I just read.  But once I slow down and figure all that pacing, I can read it faster than anyone.  But with more understanding.

Other people easily/seamlessly interpret all that after they've read the whole sentence and move immediately onto the next sentence.  I can't.  I have to read it "correctly" or I can't move onto the next sentence.

So, it is certainly something that slows me down in my reading.  Some might consider that a handicap/disorder.  Labels being what they are...   But at the same time, I tend to get a better understanding and I retain more than others who've read the same book. 

-- My son both reads faster than anyone I know, and also has my level of retention or better.  Color me jealous.  Yes, I'd really like to read as fast as my son.  But I'm the slowest reader in my family except for my 13 yo.

Get yourself checked out, and possibly your kids. 

Autism tends to be genetic, in that it runs in families. 

If niece is a blood relative, it could mean that there is family history on your side leading towards autism spectrum disorder. In that case, one or both of her parents may be autistic as well but either doesn't realize they're autistic or is masking it so deeply that they're not helping. 

[NeuroTypical]

A few years ago, my work had a guest speaker come talk to us about neurodiversity.  Lots of talk on the importance of a diagnosis, and how unfair it is that these people tend to need to grow up masking their actual selves, and having to pretend to be someone they're not for safety.  I asked a question to the tune of "What advice would you give to someone in their '50's who has often wondered if there's a diagnosis out there for him, but he's spent so many decades living life and having a wife and raising kids and having a career that his 'mask' is basically his entire personality at this point, but he's doing ok?  Asking for a friend."

The presenter only stuttered a little bit before replying something to the tune of "If someone in that situation is comfortable with the life they've built for themselves, then there's not a whole lot of point in chasing a diagnosis at this stage of the game."

[Carborendum]

5 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

Get yourself checked out, and possibly your kids. 

Autism tends to be genetic, in that it runs in families. 

If niece is a blood relative, it could mean that there is family history on your side leading towards autism spectrum disorder. In that case, one or both of her parents may be autistic as well but either doesn't realize they're autistic or is masking it so deeply that they're not helping. 

My children show no signs of autism... except that now Tourettes is included, one of my sons definitely has tics that qualify.

I'm adopted.  So neice on either side wouldn't apply.  And she's from my wife's side of the family.  No history.

[Ironhold]

15 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Autism is a tricky thing, for reasons that @Ironhold did an excellent job of explaining. I'd say that an overwhelming majority of people with noticeable autistic traits probably fit the high-functioning model like Ironhold and I do. A lot of us don't need a ton of every day support. We don't typically have meltdowns or other distruptive behaviors. On the contrary, we're usually masking in order to appear more "normal" than we really are. And yes, we're generally very good at learning new things. I was reading encyclopedias recreationally at age 8. That being said, there are other challenges. We often struggle with social skills and personal relationships. Behavioral disorders like OCD (hyperfixating on EVERYTHING) and tourettes syndrome are now considered autistic traits, among several others. If it seems like "everybody is autistic these days", it's because our understanding of the autism spectrum has progressed tremendously in recent decades. It's getting to the point where you stop wondering if "gifted" kids are autistic and instead wonder what kind of autistic they are. Some people internalize these traits too much, to be sure, but understanding the various parts of the spectrum can have tremendous benefits to how we approach childhood development and education, especially for kids on IEPs (like my son).

When I was in my twenties I finally realized that I was different from others, and not necessarily in a good way; the various things I'd survived at that point (including a horrific medical episode that I now use as a benchmark when evaluating horror movies) also played a part. 

The best way I could describe it to others was "I was wired wrong to begin with, and the things I've been through haven't helped."

If I'm left to my own devices, I can generally get by. I've even been the first person on the scene in a number of high-stress and emergency situations (such as a situation that involved a fatality). I actually had a talk with my editor the other day about how my entertainment columns have officially as of this year been in print longer than "Calvin & Hobbes".  

However, I've had to explain at length to my parents and others that I have hard limits, and if they see various tics or other bits manifest (for example, when I'm under enough stress the muscles in my jaw and tongue can seize up, leaving me temporarily unable to speak) they need to back off and give me a minute. 

Earlier this year we had my youngest nephew come stay with us for a few days. I had to have *several* very long talks with my mom as a result of this, wherein I had to explain to her what he was going through based on my own personal experience and what he was dealing with. My youngest nephew is having to take medications because he has ADHD and other issues on top of his autism spectrum, and it's heartbreaking to hear him at his young age talk about how his "brain is broken" because he's not normal, doesn't have the best impulse control, and people don't always know how to handle him. 

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

She said that she was having trouble with math.  I began to instruct her.  With my instruction she was fine.  I was there as a security blanket when she had some questions of clarification.

When she came to the summary question for an entire unit, we read the question together.  She said she understood it.  I walked away to go to the bathroom.  By the time I was back, she had done it.

When I pointed that out (that she had done it all by herself) she was surprised and happy.  But immediately she fell into the victim mindset. "But I'll just forget it tomorrow."

"So?  Everyone forgets."  I explained that repetition and review are a natural part of study.  She was surprised at this knowledge.  I explained to her that she doesn't forget because she's stupid.  She forgets because she's human.  She just needs to review multiple times to get it.  That's how people learn.

A realization dawned on her.  We continued in conversation.  Once she realized that she's allowed to forget, and she's allowed to review, she found a new world in front of her.

The week before, she was absolutely convinced that she was stupid.  This past week, I asked her every day if she needed any math coaching.  She didn't.  She's doing fine now that she knows how to review material and refresh her memory.

The kicker is that she isn't really reviewing much.  She remembers it.  But now that she knows she's not retarded (which was what she interpreted when people told her she had autism) she now knows she can learn.  And guess what?  She doesn't display any autistic traits anymore... until she spends time with her mother again.

BTW: A version of this story is something the parents need to hear.  (And I've just become convinced that any discussions should include both parents, for various reasons.)

[Phoenix_person]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Let me tell you exactly what happened when I tutored her in math and I hope you (and others) will get an idea of what's happened.

She said that she was having trouble with math.  I began to instruct her.  With my instruction she was fine.  I was there as a security blanket when she had some questions of clarification.

When she came to the summary question for an entire unit, we read the question together.  She said she understood it.  I walked away to go to the bathroom.  By the time I was back, she had done it.

When I pointed that out (that she had done it all by herself) she was surprised and happy.  But immediately she fell into the victim mindset. "But I'll just forget it tomorrow."

"So?  Everyone forgets."  I explained that repetition and review are a natural part of study.  She was surprised at this knowledge.  I explained to her that she doesn't forget because she's stupid.  She forgets because she's human.  She just needs to review multiple times to get it.  That's how people learn.

A realization dawned on her.  We continued in conversation.  Once she realized that she's allowed to forget, and she's allowed to review, she found a new world in front of her.

The week before, she was absolutely convinced that she was stupid.  This past week, I asked her every day if she needed any math coaching.  She didn't.  She's doing fine now that she knows how to review material and refresh her memory.

The kicker is that she isn't really reviewing much.  She remembers it.  But now that she knows she's not retarded (which was what she interpreted when people told her she had autism) she now knows she can learn.  And guess what?  She doesn't display any autistic traits anymore... until she spends time with her mother again.

It was the very placement of a label on her that prevented her from learning on her own.

I'm an expert overthinker. It's a common trait for folks on the spectrum. We convince ourselves that if something seems too easy, we're probably doing it wrong. It's why I struggled with 90s math until my mom figured out how to make it make sense to me. In your niece's case, she's likely having those thought processes reinforced by her parents, which is incredibly unhealthy. 

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I have known people who were clinically diagnosed as autistic.  And they were extreme cases.  It is obvious that when some extreme conditions exist, we all have a sense of "that child ain't right."  But it is the application of that label to virtually everyone where I have to raise an objection.  It used to be that (to put some conceptual numbers to it) that of all the behaviors, they needed to be at least a 6 out of 10 to qualify as a "disorder." 

But today you "have a disorder" if it is at a 0.1 level.  That just ain't so.

Tbh, the more I learn about the autism spectrum, the more I dislike using the word "disorder" to describe it. A new practice that I've noticed in recent years both in academia and the workforce at large is to ask students and workers how they best process information (visual, auditory, physical, etc). As someone who struggles a lot with verbal information, I think that's a tremendous development. Being mindful of those learning differences helped me condition myself to seek out information in formats that I can process easily. That's why I love books and internet articles and generally avoid podcasts and radio talk shows. Autism has taught us that everyone can be taught, but there's no one-size-fits-all methodology to it. 

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

When we introduce a spectrum, we need to be careful just what we define as inside that spectrum.  The circle graphic you posted is exactly what is wrong with it.  When everyone is autistic, then no one is autistic.  The label becomes meaningless.  Basically, we need to apply an analog of the Overton Window to medicine/psychology.  And the window has become too big.

I'm conflicted on this. On the one hand, I can certainly see the potential harm of telling someone with OCD traits that they may share neurological similarities with people who struggle with substance abuse or mood disorders. OTOH, I think there's a lot of useful potential in exploring links between the autism spectrum and some of the more common mental ailments like anxiety and depression.

2 hours ago, Ironhold said:

When I was a kid, I was so far ahead of my peers in various fields that I spent a lot of time bored. 

I hadn't been diagnosed with anything at the time due to the then-existing stereotypes, and so whenever I would doodle or daydream to cure that boredom I got it coming and going. 

It was especially bad in 3rd grade, when I had a toxic teacher and my parents were so busy chewing me out for my tics manifesting and my attempts to relieve my boredom that they almost missed how bad my teacher was and that her actions were part of what I was dealing with that year. 

Even then, it still didn't register with my parents that perhaps I should go see someone. Rather, I was "gifted" and so they just assumed I was hyper-smart and on top of everything. Cue heaping amounts of mental and emotional trauma as I spent my youth getting ripped apart, accused of lying, or other such things because I didn't process the world the same way my parents & older siblings did and didn't react to it the same way, either. They just assumed that I was a liar, that I was exaggerating various health issues, and that this was all in service of my being a slacker. 

It took all of my nieces and nephews coming up on the spectrum for my parents to realize that maybe, just maybe, me and my siblings were on the spectrum as well. 

I've been diagnosed, as has one of my two brothers. We don't know about the other one. 

In hindsight we now know that dad is likely autistic, with his time in the Army giving him the discipline he needed to compensate. 

I suspect that mom is as well, but whenever I bring it up she gets defensive. 

I'm so sorry you had that experience. I know what it's like to feel like there's something wrong with your brain, but no one else seems to acknowledge it. I was immensely relieved when, at age 20-something, I learned that it's actually pretty common for people to have internal monologues with themselves, and I wasn't the only person irrationally bothered by the fact that there are people who don't.

My parents tried their best, but I think they struggled with the idea that the resolution of my speech problem didn't mean I was suddenly a "normal" kid. Getting pulled out of 5th grade was probably the best thing they could have done at the time. Most parents (especially nowadays) would have blamed the school for teaching math wrong, or worse, blamed the kid.

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

something to the tune of "If someone in that situation is comfortable with the life they've built for themselves, then there's not a whole lot of point in chasing a diagnosis at this stage of the game."

I'm inclined to agree. It's a wormhole that doesn't need to be explored too much by well-adjusted adults. That said, I think it's important for people, especially parents, to read up on the basics of what it means to be on the spectrum. Not to find a diagnosis, but to hopefully better understand some of the things that make people tick. And yes, you may learn a thing or two about yourself along the way. For most of my life, my dad could never explain why he was so enthusiastic about raising homing pigeons as a child. They were my grandfather's pigeons, but he never cared forcthem the way my dad did. Heceven got one of them trained to fly to his best friend's house and send messages back and forth. It wasn't until he was in his 50s that he realized that not only were the pigeons probably a hyperfixation, but he actually preferred using them to communicate with his friend because face-to-face interactions with people gave him anxiety. That information probably would have been inconsequential to him 60 years ago, but now he better understands something about himself (and now my mom keeps threatening to buy pigeons to make him communicate with her better 😆). 

I explored my diagnosis for two reasons. First, I knew I had one and was curious. Second, my mental health has been a dumpster fire since long before COVID, and I wanted to understand why. Not all of it was autism-related. I have severe PTSD and a brain injury from my time in Iraq. For me, improving my mental health meant understanding all aspects of my psyche while working on therapeutic solutions. What I learned (and was warned about up front) is that the CBT/DBT skills that most therapists teach these days don't always come easily to ND folks. I didn't really begin to understand how to use those skills until after I needed them the most, and it's still a work in progress. It's almost gotten to the point where my hyperfixation is simply staying alive, which is probably the most productive use of that trait.

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

When I compare that to my niece, I realize that she needs to learn some social graces and interpersonal skills.  But she is fully functional in all other ways.  That isn't autism.

Poor social/interpersonal skills are a pretty big sign of autism. Most kids navigate it fine. They usually just gravitate to other "weirdos" or find something enjoyable to do alone. Adulthood is where those skill definciencies can sometimes start to cause problems, especially if you marry an NT person like I did. 

3 hours ago, Vort said:

Our experiences and viewpoints appear to have some significant areas of overlap. This is an example of not that:

The "learning disorders" of "smart kids" is that they want to understand things? I don't disagree with the base assertion, but do you see how absurd it is to call such a trait a "learning disorder"?

Yes, and I addressed that above. I still use the term out of habit (and when discussing these things with professionals, I find value in using their terminology) , but autism is neither a disability or a disorder. It's only treated that way because we based our education system on the idea that EVERYONE can learn things the same way, and if they can't it's simply because they're lazy or stupid.

I think this mentality has had a harmful impact on men in particular because we're already programmed to have restrained emotions. A lot of autistic people feel emotions very intensely, yet we live in a world in which men are labeled as "feminine" or "gay" if they express themselves the wrong way.

Example: I love scented candles. I've always loved them. Until recently though, you couldn't waterboard that information out of me. My recent "epiphany" that changed my attitude was the discovery of two scented candles that I had bought years ago for my ex, but she never burned because she didn't like those specific scents. She packed them with the rest of my belongings and I just found them a few months ago. At first, I was conflicted about what to do with them. It seemed weird for me, now a bachelor, to burn scented candles in my bare bones apartment. But why? I like them. I like the scents, which is why I bought them. My wife knew I liked the scents, which is why she gave them back to me instead of throwing them away. Why shouldn't my apartment smell like roasted hazelnuts and fresh autumn leaves? Who's going to judge me for it, my cat? So now I burn scented candles, my apartment smells amazing, and my mental health is that much better for it. I think being less uptight about what brings us joy could go a long way to improving mens' mental health. We need more dudes frolicking in fields for no other reason than it brings them joy.

https://youtu.be/z0lNUzUOwiI?si=_1Q2UkjUDzREnifJ

3 hours ago, Vort said:

The "learning disorders" of "smart kids" is that they want to understand things? I don't disagree with the base assertion, but do you see how absurd it is to call such a trait a "learning disorder"?

I would never question someone who says that Ritalin or Adderall helps them mentally function better, because I know what that level of dysfunction looks like for some people. ADHD actually deserves the "disorder" label imo, though I'd concede that it's probably overused. It's so much more than a burning desire to understand everything. It's being incapable of staying focused on one thing because your brain is trying to pull you in 20 different directions. It's struggling to follow a conversation because as soon as the other person started talking, your brain started thinking, in detail, about what you're going to make for dinner. It's isolating yourself from external stimuli in hopes that your brain will stop finding things to scratch at and maybe you can have 10 seconds of actual internal peace. Untreated ADHD in adults often leads to struggles with substance abuse and insomnia because your brain WON'T. SWITCH. OFF.

Edited October 25, 2024 by Phoenix_person

[Carborendum]

7 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Poor social/interpersonal skills are a pretty big sign of autism. Most kids navigate it fine. They usually just gravitate to other "weirdos" or find something enjoyable to do alone. 

What if someone has poor social skills because her mother continually told her that she's incapable of being normal?

I had thought that autism was an innate condition.  I never thought it was a trait that could be taught or nurtured into someone.

Just be being around people who treat her as normal, she's beginning to act normal.  Does that mean she's autistic when she's with her family, but she's no longer autistic when she's with my family?

[Phoenix_person]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

What if someone has poor social skills because her mother continually told her that she's incapable of being normal?

I had thought that autism was an innate condition.  I never thought it was a trait that could be taught or nurtured into someone.

Just be being around people who treat her as normal, she's beginning to act normal.  Does that mean she's autistic when she's with her family, but she's no longer autistic when she's with my family?

If things are really that bad at home, then she may be shutting down because of anxiety when she's around her parents. That's not necessarily a spectrum thing. My brother had the opposite problem as a kid. He was a perfectly normal, playful and chatty kid around the immediate family, but wouldn't say a word to anyone else, even grandparents. The doctors called it selective mutism, an anxiety disorder. It's not considered part of the autism spectrum, but it comes with a lot of similar social difficulties. He's the reason I learned that the LDS Church sometimes sends people on local "test missions" if there are health concerns. They sent him to Philly (my parents live near Harrisburgh), and IIRC he lasted about a month and a half. He's 33 years old and I don't think he's spent more than two years away from home. He recently tried going to BYU-I a second time, but had to come home because he was getting chronic kidney stones, possibly due to his anxiety.