Axel Rudakubana

[Jamie123]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/czepl8406n8t

You're going to hate me for saying this, but I cannot believe that Axel Rudakubana is sane. It's no use telling me he's "perfectly sane, just evil". He's not.

"Perfectly sane" people, even if they're evil, do not go around stabbing little girls for no reason, and with no regard for the consequences to themselves. He's now in prison for life. True, he could be released on license when he's 70 (assuming he survives five decades in prison) but he probably won't be. He's thrown his life away for no other reason that he likes to play stabby-stabby with little children. That is not "sanity".

He belongs in a very secure mental institution, for however long it takes him to be properly cured, with no guarantee that he will ever be released.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

He belongs in a very secure mental institution, for however long it takes him to be properly cured, with no guarantee that he will ever be released.

This seems to underline what I consider a very British approach toward jurisprudence. In my opinion, this man should be put to death. Period Full stop. His life is forfeit. He cannot be trusted around human beings ever again.

Is the man insane? No mentally healthy person would do what he did, so clearly, he is not mentally healthy (i.e. sane). But so what? Western jurisprudence does not hold a man responsible for something he has no control over. But this can be interpreted in non-useful ways. For example, if a man sets a grenade to go off in a locked box that he destroys the key to, well, he can't help it if the grenade explodes. Not his fault. If a man drinks while knowing full well that he loses control when he's drunk, it's not his fault if he does bad stuff when he's drunk, because he can't control it.

This is nonsense. If a person is literally unable to control his impulses, he should be locked in a cage forever (or, more humanely, put to death). The idea that "this poor man doesn't realize what he's doing and therefore cannot be held to account" will be the downfall of Western society.

[NeuroTypical]

Whenever I find myself in the company of a corrections officer, I always ask them if they believe evil people exist.  I hear two responses:

1- "I've only met sick, damaged, broken, tortured, or warped people."

2- "Oh sure.  We release evil into the neighborhood on Tuesdays."

If the work those folks do hasn't led them to gravitate to one answer or the other, what hope do I and my arguably ambiguous LDS theology have to arrive at a conclusion?

 

I will say I agree with @Vort only halfway.  It is possible to have your "live on planet earth with the humans" card revoked.  Whether you tear it up yourself, or it is torn up for you is beside the point.  Some folks are so irredeemably broken/evil, that allowing them to remain alive is not a kindness to anybody, including the people themselves.  You can be just and good by executing an evil irredeemable subhuman monster who will only exist to harm and destroy, and it's also just and good to put down the human equivalent of Old Yeller.   Poor dog didn't realize what he was doing, but that does not lead us to 'therefore we can't deal with him'. 

 

Edited January 27 by NeuroTypical

[Jamie123]

12 hours ago, Vort said:

This seems to underline what I consider a very British approach toward jurisprudence. In my opinion, this man should be put to death. Period Full stop. His life is forfeit. He cannot be trusted around human beings ever again.

I know this has nothing to do with the insane vs. evil debate, but I have always been totally against the death penalty. I agree that if Axel Rudakubana were some isolated case which set no precedent there might be a case for it, but you can be sure that if it were allowed for him it would soon be applied to many other less clear cut cases. People are convicted of murder on purely circumstantial evidence, and sometimes these same people are later found innocent. They may have lost years of their lives, but they can still be let out of prison. No hanged man can ever be let out of the grave.

One of the most heart-rending cases was Stefan Kiszko, who had an emotional age if 12 and was told by the police he could go home for Christmas if he confessed to murdering a little girl called Lesley Molseed. He had a useless defence in the form of Lord "Toad-Face" Waddington QC and he spent 16 years in prison before his conviction was overturned. Aside from many other inconsistencies in the prosecution, he suffered from hypogonadism and could not produce headed sperm. The sperms found on the victim had heads.

Later still, DNA evidence was used to find the real killer who is now thankfully behind bars. But had capital punishment not been abolished, Kiszko would have been hanged.

Now you may say that Kiszko and others like him are rare cases, and that most murder convictions are safe. If a few innocent people need to be killed on order to create a deterrent against others committing murder then its a "price worth paying". (Though it's funny how the people who use that phrase are never the ones who are going to have to pay the price.) But as Spock says: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

But is it true that the death penalty deters potential murderers? That question needs to be answered by evidence, not blind supposition.

Ok rant over.

[Carborendum]

20 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

but I cannot believe that Axel Rudakubana is sane. It's no use telling me he's "perfectly sane, just evil". He's not.

Does it make a difference?

The line that separates the two becomes blurred as the intensity of evil or insanity increases.

[EH12NG]

We live in an age where the likes of Mr Axel Rudakubana will be given a big sympathy vote with a full blown marvel origins story. Give it enough time and some glossy trash magazine will have exclusive rights to his wedding. Because there's always one weirdo out there who thinks she can '' change him ''. 

Axel has chosen to walk a particular path that in my experience, stretches out of reach from human intervention. Nothing good can come from his twisted mind and calloused heart. 

[NeuroTypical]

Looking through the Wikipedia page on the incident: 

Quote

On 4 October 2019, aged 13 and in Year 9, he contacted Childline and asked "what should I do if I want to kill somebody?" and in the following days, explained he wanted to kill someone who was bullying him at school. The incident was referred to the police, who visited him shortly afterwards. Rudakubana had been temporarily excluded from school by this point, and he was expelled after he disclosed that he had taken a knife to school on about 10 occasions.

There is vague mention to mental health services being involved, but I see nothing about an evaluation or a diagnosis.   

Not really enough information for me to come to any meaningful conclusion about why.

[Carborendum]

I took some time to read about this kid.  I have a very credible uneducated non-expert opinion that has no semblance of professional or scholarly competence to it whatsoever.  But I'm going to share it anyway. 

TRIGGER WARNING: If you can't handle violent thoughts, don't read the rest of this post.  I'm not saying any of this is a justification.  I'm portraying what is probably going on in his mind that eventually culminated in the deaths of three kids.

He actually suffered from a strong sense of justice and poor parenting. By "parenting" I mean all adults (including therapists) who were counseling him.

I'm assuming that nowhere in all his therapy was he ever told that the other kid did something wrong and should be punished.  If anyone said so, it was just a fleeting half-second acknowledgement, immediately followed by condemnation of his desire for revenge.  And while he is being condemned, the bullies get off scott free.  Is anyone condemning them for the bullying?  (If they did, it wasn't in a way that Axel could process it properly within a moral framework that was still forming in his young mind).

Think about it.  If you have a strong sense of justice, but you see people doing horrible things (in his mind) and no one stops them or even bothers to tell them that they're doing evil things, then where is justice?  Their acts are going to keep hurting me.  Their UNPUNISHED acts are going to keep hurting me.  And for me to enact justice... I'm told that is wrong.  I'm told that I'm forbidden from taking action against them. 

What is there to interpret other than "what they did was perfectly acceptable."  

If their unprovoked attack is perfectly acceptable, then my provoked act should be perfectly acceptable.  Then I now have the right to begin unprovoked attacks.

Freedom.  Freedom from having to cower from the bullies.  Freedom to do whatever I want. Freedom from those bullies.  Freedom to kill those bullies.  Freedom to be a bully myself.  And that strong sense of justice doesn't matter because there is no justice.  I can kill anyone for any reason.  Those bullies never had a reason to hurt me.  They never got punished.

...You get the picture...

It may sound psychotic.  But that is a term that has a tenuous definition (these days).  Was he evil?  Maybe.  Was he insane?  Maybe.  Was there something very wrong with him?  Absolutely.

This was an absolute tragedy.  There is no sense in it.

Edited January 29 by Carborendum

[Traveler]

I agree with @Vort .  Many argue that any death penalty is too harsh and a social pariah.  A particular argument that I have encountered is that it would be better to free 99 murders than to mistakenly put to death one innocent.   My response to that argument is that I would rather be the one innocent unjustly put to death than to ever even back the idea of releasing 99 murders into a society – with them thinking or realizing that they can and did get away with murder.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

29 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I agree with @Vort .  Many argue that any death penalty is too harsh and a social pariah.  A particular argument that I have encountered is that it would be better to free 99 murders than to mistakenly put to death one innocent.   My response to that argument is that I would rather be the one innocent unjustly put to death than to ever even back the idea of releasing 99 murders into a society – with them thinking or realizing that they can and did get away with murder.

 

The Traveler

That’s interesting, and I’m glad you’d be okay with going to your death. But most of us would be less than thrilled to be executed for a crime we didn’t commit.

 

In fact, if someone just says “Eh, who cares about innocent people being put to death. No biggie. Gotta break some eggs to make that omelette.” they have some stuff to work on as a person. 

Edited January 29 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

9 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

In fact, if someone just says “Eh, who cares about innocent people being put to death. No biggie. Gotta break some eggs to make that omelette.” they have some stuff to work on as a person. 

As opposed to someone who says "Eh, who cares about all the future innocent people who will be harmed/killed by this guy.  No biggie.  It's not like it would be my fault, I'm just the one not putting down a clear threat to humans."?

(I don't claim to have the answers here, but it seems to be a valid response, yeah?)

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

(I don't claim to have the answers here, but it seems to be a valid response, yeah?)

No. If we can give someone LWOP and keep them away from other inmates or guards the death penalty becomes irrelevant. 

[LDSGator]

I was pro death penalty for years, then I started asking myself “Why am I, a pro limited government guy in favor of letting the government have the ultimate power? Could they ever misuse it and kill innocent people?” 
 

Ironically when I converted that was the final push to swing me to abolition-which I think is happening nationwide, thank God. It goes against the chance for forgiveness, redemption, etc.  

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

No. If we can give someone LWOP and keep them away from other inmates or guards the death penalty becomes irrelevant. 

Yeah, it's the "keep them away from other humans" thing that doesn't work for folks.   Pretty easy to make a case of cruel and unusual punishment for such things.  

Homicides in state and federal prisons: 

 

You sure my response isn't valid?

[LDSGator]

20 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

You sure my response isn't valid

Honestly? Yes. 

I’m confident that if a government can find ways to kill people they can find ways to keep others in prison alive.  
 

Also, if one uses the argument that killing a few innocent people is worth keeping the death penalty on the books then they should have no problem killing a few innocent guards or other inmates to take it off the books. 

Edited January 29 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

18 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

if one uses the argument that killing a few innocent people is worth keeping the death penalty on the books then they should have no problem killing a few innocent guards or other inmates to take it off the books.

I guess that's fair.

My overall take on things is humans suck when it comes to finding the right blend of justice and mercy.  I'm looking forward to seeing how it's done in heaven.

[LDSGator]

19 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

My overall take on things is humans suck when it comes to finding the right blend of justice and mercy.  I'm looking forward to seeing how it's done in heaven.

Agree. It’s always been a big issue for me-when I was 18 I told Helen Prejean she was wrong and the death penalty was the only appropriate punishment. She was a speaker at my first college. She wrote Dead Man Walking.

Now, I’ve swung vehemently to the other side. Fascinating what age/maturity/introspection does.  

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, LDSGator said:

That’s interesting, and I’m glad you’d be okay with going to your death. But most of us would be less than thrilled to be executed for a crime we didn’t commit.

.....

I am glad that Christ had the attitude different than most.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I am glad that Christ had the attitude different than most.

 

The Traveler

Yes, his turning the other cheek, forgive your neighbor 7X70, putting the ear back on a solider, forgiving the second thief… all His teachings on forgiveness come to mind, actually. 

Edited January 30 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

15 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Yes, his turning the other cheek, forgive your neighbor 7X70, putting the ear back on a solider, forgiving the second thief… all His teachings on forgiveness come to mind, actually. 

All of that is there, but so is the stuff about cutting off Laban's head and "go kill everyone in this city" and the Lord will destroy your enemies and fight your battles stuff.  I'm endlessly fascinated to think about the last days that usher in the millennium, when the wicked will be burned as stubble.  I'm told that everyone will eventually bend their knee as Christ returns and takes on the government, because anyone who refused will have been killed.  I mean, nobody puts it that way, but it's pretty clearly that way.

Edited January 30 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

40 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

All of that is there, but so is the stuff about cutting off Laban's head and "go kill everyone in this city" and the Lord will destroy your enemies and fight your battles stuff

All true, so I guess people on both sides use the scriptures they agree with to prove their point and ignore the scriptures that don’t. 

 

There are plenty of secular, conservative reasons to be against the death penalty though.  

Edited January 30 by LDSGator

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Yes, his turning the other cheek, forgive your neighbor 7X70, putting the ear back on a solider, forgiving the second thief… all His teachings on forgiveness come to mind, actually. 

My good and dear friend, I think you missed the most critical point.   Consider carefully your words: “most of us would be less than thrilled to be executed for a crime we didn’t commit.”  This indeed was the very redeeming act of Christ in behalf of all humanity.   Jesus said that there is no great love than that love that inspires a person to give their life for the benefit of others.

The last act of a disciple of Christ should mirror the Christ that we follow – a life dedicated (including its passing) for the greater good and benefit of others.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

22 minutes ago, Traveler said:

My good and dear friend,

Thank you. 

 

22 minutes ago, Traveler said:

This indeed was the very redeeming act of Christ in behalf of all humanity.

True. 
 

And two more things to remember.
 

1. You ain’t Jesus. 

 

2. Just because you are fine with being led to your death for the sake of “humanity” doesn’t mean everyone else is okay with that option, or that the death penalty is swell and just. 

Edited January 30 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, God gets to say who lives and dies, and we're invited to live the 2nd great commandment even unto death.

Humans still have to figure out how to deal with each other, and we'll do it in imperfect ways.  I'm still looking forward to see this whole "perfect blend of justice and mercy" deal I keep hearing about. 

Court rooms are interesting things.  When you're involved, you either sit on the defense side or the accuser side.  There are no middle seats.  I'm thinking it ain't that way on a heavenly level. 

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, God gets to say who lives and dies, and we're invited to live the 2nd great commandment even unto death.

Humans still have to figure out how to deal with each other, and we'll do it in imperfect ways.  I'm still looking forward to see this whole "perfect blend of justice and mercy" deal I keep hearing about. 

Court rooms are interesting things.  When you're involved, you either sit on the defense side or the accuser side.  There are no middle seats.  I'm thinking it ain't that way on a heavenly level. 

Totally fair. 

Believe it or not I understand that it’s a complex and somewhat gray issue. When I hear about horrific crimes I also want justice and for the perp to be severely punished.