How easy is it ????

[Hemidakota]

When Christ returns, every knee will bow......They will then have been exposed to Christ.....That is their last chance......Which, explains the Tribulations Saints........

oh geezzzeeee...... I forgot your other question...gotta go back and look..... be right back --- uugggh. ( blonde dye kicking in )

Every knee will bow as you said but many who claimed to be followers will offer this: "My Lord delays His coming..." At that point, the Savior will be here already, along with the Ten Tribes return. Why would they not know He is already here? I am talking about all dominations who profess christanity.

[HizWife625]

JenaMarie....Pleaes don't be so quick to judge my question.....I asked that question and looking for the right response..... Dr. T summed it up perfectly....Thus, I stood in agreement with him.......

Hemi:

ignorance to those never exposed, is no excuse.......make sense? The book of Romans talks on that alot.....

Those who do not get caught up, Jesus knew their heart. He judge thier heart and they did not have a personal relationship with Him.....That is explained in the book of John. No one here on earth knows which other person is or is not going to be caught up...Absolutely no one...Only Jesus knows that .....

[HizWife625]

but many who claimed to be followers will offer this: "My Lord delays His coming..."

That statement above parallels with the virgins who didn't not prepare timely and correctly..... They were shut out.....Jesus said, I know you not......... Those would appears not to be a true follower of Christ as described in the book of John.

[Hemidakota]

Hemi:

ignorance to those never exposed, is no excuse.......make sense? The book of Romans talks on that alot.....

Those who do not get caught up, Jesus knew their heart. He judge thier heart and they did not have a personal relationship with Him.....That is explained in the book of John. No one here on earth knows which other person is or is not going to be caught up...Absolutely no one...Only Jesus knows that .....

Caught up where?

[HizWife625]

When He returns, He will take His own to His father....The gates will be opened and we will enter...... Those who choose not to believe, they will be come satans servants................

Mark 16:19,

Acts 7:55-56

Hebrews 9:24

Hebrews 6:19-20, 8:1-2

We are also told by Jesus Himself that there are many rooms in God’s house and that he Has gone before us to prepare a place for us. We have the assurance of His word that he will one day come back to earth and take us to where He is in heaven

(John 14:1-4).

Paul addressed that to the Corinthians, encouraging them to cling to the hope of heaven so that they would not lose heart: “For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.

2 Corinthians 5:1-4

“For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal”

(2 Corinthians 4:17-18).

God has put in men’s hearts the knowledge that He exists

(Romans 1:19-20)

All who believe in Him and seek forgiveness for sin will find the doors of heaven swung wide for them. “Since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is his body, and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart full of assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water”

(Hebrews 10:19-22).

[Brother Dorsey]

Jospeh Smith did not teach that of the Holy Trinity, three presons in one, The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost which contradicts the truth in the bible.

No, The Prophet Joseph Smith did not teach the man made creed of the trinity because he was shown the nature of God by God...and you speak of the trinity being in the Bible...Well, I have looked and searched and have never once found the word "trinity" in the Bible, nor the phrase "three persons in one." And, I have never found a thing in the Bible that relates to me the creedal nature of God that you worship. Please show me where in the Bible it says God is unknowable? Or perhaps where it says He is a non-essence? Your truths that you have accepted are man made. So, logically speaking, if I cannot find your creedal truths of the trinity in the Bible then it must contradict the Bible. Therefore it must be wrong. The Joy of God runs throughout my life to know that God, our dear and wonderful father in heaven has not stopped guiding His children and has revealed more truths to us through a living Prophet. My heart cries for those who condemn the Fathers prophets and the Lord's revelations to us. Oh, ye of little faith, open your hearts and learn of Him....for He lives and He loves you so!

[Brother Dorsey]

blah, blah, blah......

So, before I consider converting to the LDS, would these statements be true? Please correct me anywhere that is not correct.

Now...I am laughing....There is a reason that copying and pasting from anti-Mormon websites is not allowed....because these so called "Christian" authorities have no clue as to what is LDS doctrine or canon is. They do NOT know what we believe or profess. Almost every statement you quote here is taken out of context, twisted or outright wrong!

All of these ridiculous statements of "What Mormons believe" have been beaten to death....we could sit here forever actually telling you what we believe, how we worship, what's doctrine etc. but it makes absolutely no difference to you and those like you....because.....deep down inside...you could care less...you are out to save us! WHEEEEEEEEE!

Shooo fly, you bother me....................

[Brother Dorsey]

These are issues I face when talking to a few LDS in my own office.....They won't answer them, they get frustrated and they run. I just get left standing there. I ask them to reference scripture and they won't. I test their beliefs against the bible and questioned them, still no answer.

I am sure glad I don't work in your office...it would drive me nuts to have such a person attacking my faith under the guise of wanting to learn my faith......heck, I'd get frustrated and run too.

Obviously I am not worth entering the LDS faith.

Now, now.....the Lord loves you, if you read the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants and actually humble yourself and ask God with real intent he'll show you the truth, your eyes and heart will be opened and you not only will be welcomed into the Kingdom of God, you'll be begging to be a member. All souls are worth saving. Give it time.

[Brother Dorsey]

Deuteronomy 8:19

19 Then it shall be, if you by any means forget the LORD your God, and follow other gods, and serve them and worship them, I testify against you this day that you shall surely perish

Judges 2:12

12 and they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt; and they followed other gods from among the gods of the people who were all around them, and they bowed down to them; and they provoked the LORD to anger

The Bible clearly teaches against polytheism. There is only one true God. Deuteronomy 6:4 tells us, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." Psalms 96:5 declares, "For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens." ."

Notice Psalm 82:6, "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler."

Do you even bother to read the answers posted to your questions?

WE do NOT believe we will become God, or replace Him in any way or usurp His authority. He will always be our God, the great I Am, our Father in Heaven, PERIOD! We can however...share in the Saviors inheritance as promised in the Bible....and what has the Savior inherited? Everything God has....including godhood. And before you answer I will answer for you...

YES this doctrine is NOT found in depth in the Bible because it is a truth that was lost and has now been restored to us through modern revelation. Accept it or not....but thats the answer to your question of LDS becoming gods.

[Dr T]

No, The Prophet Joseph Smith did not teach the man made creed of the trinity because he was shown the nature of God by God...and you speak of the trinity being in the Bible...Well, I have looked and searched and have never once found the word "trinity" in the Bible, nor the phrase "three persons in one." And, I have never found a thing in the Bible that relates to me the creedal nature of God that you worship. Please show me where in the Bible it says God is unknowable? Or perhaps where it says He is a non-essence? Your truths that you have accepted are man made. So, logically speaking, if I cannot find your creedal truths of the trinity in the Bible then it must contradict the Bible. Therefore it must be wrong. The Joy of God runs throughout my life to know that God, our dear and wonderful father in heaven has not stopped guiding His children and has revealed more truths to us through a living Prophet. My heart cries for those who condemn the Fathers prophets and the Lord's revelations to us. Oh, ye of little faith, open your hearts and learn of Him....for He lives and He loves you so!

Hey Brother D,

You hold to many beliefs that are not overtly used in the LDS religion also. For example, "eternal progression" and others that I've listed before. That term is not in the BOM yet you believe it. Just wanted to point that out.

[Jenamarie]

Hey Brother D,

You hold to many beliefs that are not overtly used in the LDS religion also. For example, "eternal progression" and others that I've listed before. That term is not in the BOM yet you believe it. Just wanted to point that out.

True, but it is a revealed Truth of modern prophets. It's only those who claim EVERYTHING about their faith must come from the Bible who must absolutely support their beliefs from the Bible. LDS know that not all truth is contained within that Holy book. God isn't done revealing His Word yet.

[Dr T]

The concept has been outlined time and again on this site. We know there is one true God and we see Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father being referred to as God so the conclusion is one God in the three above. God has revealed all he needs to/decided he wanted to in the Bible and through the life of Jesus for salvation, etc. We are also warned against false prophets so do with that what u want.

[Jenamarie]

But how does warning against false prophets mean there can't be real ones? Isaiah warned against false prophets, and there were still true prophets after him. Do with that what you want.

[Brother Dorsey]

God has revealed all he needs to/decided he wanted to in the Bible and through the life of Jesus for salvation, etc.

Really....please quote the scripture in the Bible that supports what you say........that God has given us all He needs to give us or has decided to give us and there will be no more revealed to us.......thanks.

[Maureen]

I finally read the whole thread and while reading had that nagging feeling that HizWife625 was being polite but with a slightly "patronizing polemical spirit". I must say that I was starting to agree with Brother Dorsey's posts. So my advice to HizWife625 (and myself) can be found in PC's advice that he has shared with us several times - which would be to read the book:

How Wide the Divide? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation (by Craig L. Blomberg and Stephen E. Robinson)

But for the moment since I don't own a copy myself I did find this review of the book by Paul Owen and Carl Mosser of the Maxwell Institute. Here's a link:

How Wide the Divide? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation - FARMS Review

I feel that if HizWife625 can at least give the review a read, he might be able to start again with a less judgemental spirit. :)

M.

[WillowTheWhisp]

HizWife625, may I ask - is your intention here to try to show us the error of our ways and save us all from being brainwashed by this 'cult'?

[HizWife625]

Deuteronomy 6:4

4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

1 Corinthians 8:4

4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one

Galatians 3:20

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The Trinity consists of three Persons

Genesis 1

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth

Genesis 1:26

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Genesis 11:7

7Go to, let [uS go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech

Isaiah 48:16

16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me

Matthew 28:19

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

2 Corinthians 13:14

14The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen

In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord" (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "LORD" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:18) and from "God" (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).

5) The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

None of the popular illustrations are completely accurate descriptions of the Trinity. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better but still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration. Instead of focusing on the Trinity, try to focus on the fact of God's greatness and infinitely higher nature than our own. "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" (Romans 11:33-34)

Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word "Trinity" is not used in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God, the fact that there are 3 coexistent, co-eternal persons that make up God. Understand that this is NOT in any way suggesting 3 Gods.

The Trinity is 1 God made up of 3 persons. There is nothing wrong with using the term "Trinity" even though the word is not found in the Bible. It is shorter to say the word "Trinity" than to say "3 coexistent, co-eternal persons making up 1 God."

If this presents a problem to you, consider this: the word grandfather is not used in the Bible either. Yet, we know there were grandfathers in the Bible. Abraham was the grandfather of Jacob.

So don't get hung up on the term "Trinity" itself. What should be of real importance is that the concept that is REPRESENTED by the word "Trinity" does exist in Scripture. With the introduction out of the way, Bible verses will be given in discussion of the Trinity.

[HizWife625]

John 10:25-40 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

40And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.

[Jenamarie]

HizWife625, may I ask - is your intention here to try to show us the error of our ways and save us all from being brainwashed by this 'cult'?

I'd say so. She stopped trying to "understand" Mormonism a while ago. All she wants, IMO, is to "understand" if what she'd read about Mormons was correct, and if correct then out comes the ammo to shoot our "false teachings" down.

[Hemidakota]

The problem with mainstream christianity Marie, they really don't have a grasp over the term testimony and why it is necessary for all Saints to have one.

[HizWife625]

Brother Dorsey......

I've already guaranteed to be part of God's kingdom...I have peace with that.

[HizWife625]

JenaMarie

A kind word will always turn away wrath..... I am here, so that, perhaps I can understand more of your faith.

I have been on many forums and asked the same of other denomiations, but never belittled in this manner.

Others share freely and we discuss scripture in the bible as compared to each doctrine....

May I ask you a personal question and would you please provide with an answer?

Do you sin? Can you answer that honestly?

[Jenamarie]

JenaMarie

A kind word will always turn away wrath..... I am here, so that, perhaps I can understand more of your faith.

I have been on many forums and asked the same of other denomiations, but never belittled in this manner.

Others share freely and we discuss scripture in the bible as compared to each doctrine....

May I ask you a personal question and would you please provide with an answer?

Do you sin? Can you answer that honestly?

I appologize for my brashness, but getting asked these exact same questions again and again and again, with the person asking them not *really* looking for understanding (because I really don't think you are looking to understand. you're here to "save" us and prove your interpretation of scripture. period.) gets really really old. I've encountered endless people like you.

And I absolutely do sin. I'd be lying if I said I didn't. But it is through my Lord and Savior that I am forgiven of those sins, and through His Grace I am made stronger so that I can resist the temptation the next time I'm faced with it. He is my Lord and my Life. Without Him I would be nothing.

[HizWife625]

JenaMarie

Apology accepted and thanks for answering the question....We have something ni common now....We are both sinners and both turn to our Lord.....

BTW - Your daughter is precious....

No I am not here to save the "Mormons" that you stated are brainwashed and a cult..... Please notice I have not labeled you as such.

I am here to understand why there is so much of a controversy between Christians vs Mormons.....Nothing more than sitting down over hot tea and asking questions. You tell me your thuoghts and I compare to scripture and tell you my thoughts.

??????? for you and/or Hemi:

Do you believe that there are different levels or kingdoms in the afterlife: The Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom and outer darkness?

My husband's sister belongs to the LDS and she has talked on this briefly, so I thought I would ask.....It is most interesting.

[lostnfound]

The problem with mainstream christianity Marie, they really don't have a grasp over the term testimony and why it is necessary for all Saints to have one.

i think it is necessary to have one.