Bruce R. McConkie & Apostasy

[Guest User-Removed]

I thought I'd throw this quote out from the late Bruce R. McConkie to stimulate discussion on the topic.

This post is not being directed at anyone here or elsewhere.

“The basic cause of apostasy is sin. Men leave the church because they are sensual and carnal. It is not a matter of rejecting gospel doctrine, or preferring a more liberal interpretation, these are excuses. The basic reason for rebellion is a desire to enjoy the lusts of the flesh.” (DNTC 3:426-427)

[Dr T]

That seems like a broad generalization. I'm guessing that it we asked people that left if it had to do with doctrine or not, many would say it was the former. Just a hunch.

[pushka]

Yes, that does sound like a broad generalisation, and yes, I'm sure there are many different reasons why all sorts of people leave the church, or leave any church for that matter.

[john doe]

I think there is a lot of truth in that quote. The Natural Man is lazy and selfish.

[Guest tomk]

The quote is dead accurate!

Let us not revile against our conscience. :)

[sgallan]

So when does all this lusting I am supposed to be enjoying start?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I left once but I still lived the Mormon lifestyle. It is a generalisation and cannot possibly apply to everyone.

[pam]

I don't believe this is a generalization. I find the quote dead on accurate. I have known many people who have left the church (not because they don't believe doctrinal principles) but they want to enjoy the ways of the world.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Am I the only one who left and yet had no disagreement with doctrine or failed to live the lifestyle? I must be an anomaly.

[john doe]

So when does all this lusting I am supposed to be enjoying start?

It begins................now. Go out and enjoy your heathen ways!

[skalenfehl]

“The basic cause of apostasy is sin. Men leave the church because they are sensual and carnal... The basic reason for rebellion is a desire to enjoy the lusts of the flesh.” (DNTC 3:426-427)

I picked this apart and focused on key words: Cause, Apostacy, Sin/Sensual/Carnal/Rebellion/Lust Of Flesh.

I don't think this applies to anyone who never had a testimony and wasn't converted in the first place but I have to agree with the quote. Anyone that I have known who have apostatized or rebelled have done so because they would rather do other things. Some won't give up smoking/drinking, some won't give up fornication, etc. Some, as mentioned above, are lazy and just plain don't want to trouble themselves and go to church. I can't think of any reason for rebelling/apostatizing that doesn't originate from the weaknesses or tendencies of the flesh or the natural man.

1 Cor. 2: 14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Mosiah 3: 19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

D&C 67: 12

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.

[john doe]

Am I the only one who left and yet had no disagreement with doctrine or failed to live the lifestyle? I must be an anomaly.

There are sins of commission and sins of omission.

[WillowTheWhisp]

In that case John Doe I guess my sin was in not feeling like I belonged and not being able to cope with some members of the Ward when I was comparatively new.

[skalenfehl]

Willow, I take it you came back? I don't consider your leaving an act of rebellion or apostatizing, but I don't know your story either. I sense no rebellion in any of your posts.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It was a missionary couple many years ago who loved us back. My late husband and I had left because we hadn't felt that we belonged. We still lived the lifestyle and my husband still took his Book of Mormon to work with him. I never once doubted the truth of the restoration. I just felt like I didn't belong. No-one from the Ward had come to see why we didn't want to be there and when we wrote to the Bishop asking for our names to be removed all we got was confirmation that it had been done.

[VisionOfLehi]

In that case John Doe I guess my sin was in not feeling like I belonged and not being able to cope with some members of the Ward when I was comparatively new.

We need to remember that "carnal" doesn't just mean sexual.

Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Perhaps the carnality you "enjoyed" was not enduring, and having problems with other members. It's much easier to hold grudges, dislike, or not get along with people than it is to forgive them or not be bothered by them.

This may not be true for you, but I'm sure there's a way to apply it to Brother McConkie's statement. I don't doubt that what I just described is how it applies to many others, though.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Perhaps I can try to explain that we just seemed to have to constantly struggle to try to feel accepted. Things like being told not to sit in a certain place because someone else would want to sit there. It may seem small but constantly getting this sort of message when you are only new leads to a feeling that perhaps you shouldn't be there. Perhaps then by your explanation my carnality was not being able to keep up the struggle. I can manage the struggle a bit more now, cope with the promised phone call that never comes and the criticism for trying to follow the things I am told to do. Now it's my daughter who is struggling with feelings on non-acceptance. Does that mean she is a sinner now? I could never tell her that. She's far too depressed already.

Perhaps it's just the terminology I can't understand.

[VisionOfLehi]

"Sin" is the knowing breaking of commandments. Sometimes when a thing is called "sin" it gets a big reaction, but it's not THAT big of a deal.

You're commanded to be humble and submissive and forgiving...

It's not easy. We all sin all the time in that sense.

McConkie's statement shouldn't be taken in an accusatory manner(although it quite seems like that's how he meant it.) It should be a tool that makes us recognize, "The reason these people fell away is because they have some other desire or need. If we want to help, we should try to find out how to overcome or fulfill it."

[WillowTheWhisp]

I am trying to understand this but having a real struggle with it.

Perhaps the answer is for new members to develop thicker skins so that when it seems they are not wanted they can shrug it off and carry on regardless. It isn't easy to do that though.

I find it much easier to stand up to opposition from outside of the church than opposition within even after all these years. I remember how much harder it is when a testimony is very tender and new.

[VisionOfLehi]

The "answer" isn't necessarily thicker skins. Old timers need to be re-taught how difficult it can be to join the Church.

It's not just a religious institute, but an entire culture. It's not something (usually) you can just jump into and perfectly mesh in.

And new members need to be carefully "watched over." Not spied on, but in the way a shepherd attends his flock. The mission and Church leaders should make sure they have what they need as they learn to integrate, and do it at a reasonable pace.

But, ultimately, whether or not you go is up to the individual.

[Moksha]

I thought I'd throw this quote out from the late Bruce R. McConkie to stimulate discussion on the topic.

I think it was Canuck Mormon who pointed out that McConkie got a lot of these ideas from his Father-in-Law. I imagine after Sunday dinner in the Smith household, the women retired to the kitchen to make themselves useful, while the men went to the parlor and cooked up a lot of speculation. Perhaps after a spot of bad mustard they came up with particularly harsh speculations.

[Moksha]

The problem I have with the statement is that is does not really fit the bulk of the people I have known that have left the Church. Further, I think it was said to demean those who have left. I do not think that is such an attitude is wise or loving.

There was another thread a few days ago, for people who had left the Church and returned, to describe the reason they left. Their reasons were varied. How many would have returned to embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ, if they had an Elder McConkie standing over their shoulder pointing the finger of sin?

People leave and people can be reclaimed. It makes it the reclamation more difficult if the door hits them hard on the way out, does it not?

[lilered]

People leave for a variety of reasons, LDS is a covenant religion, much is expected, it is a particpatory religion. To belong & be passive is difficult. If Home Teacher, Visiting Teachers, Presidencies, Bishoprics, and members are living their religion they all have responsiblities for the ward members. As such, to some it may seem overwelming, to others we have too great of expectations, and yet to others we appear cliquish or unfriendly.

The truth is we as members can all improve our efforts in making members/non members feel more welcome and loving and to all those we come in contact with.

What ever the reason folks leave, God still loves them and wants them to return to the fold.

[Misshalfway]

I am trying to understand this but having a real struggle with it.

Perhaps the answer is for new members to develop thicker skins so that when it seems they are not wanted they can shrug it off and carry on regardless. It isn't easy to do that though.

I find it much easier to stand up to opposition from outside of the church than opposition within even after all these years. I remember how much harder it is when a testimony is very tender and new.

Joining and remaining a member of this church is sometimes very difficult. I think sometimes there is such a transition when people join. There is indeed a culture and understanding that culture and being accepted by the people inside the culture, I think takes time. I wish the we as members did a better job at transitioning people. I know where I live, the culture is so very LDS and we don't even recognize how that effects people. I think as the church grows it must expand its definitions of itself.

[Misshalfway]

Just to add to the last post, I think that as the church grows throughout this vast diverse world, it may need to expand the definition of itself in terms of culture and interpersonal relationships. This church does have a culture. And for a time, a closed culture made a lot of sense. When you are kicked out of a country and are running for your lives.......etc etc. But now, we can look outward and welcome the new. There is a place for everyone in this church and there is a place for us to expand our social norms.