Tarnished

Thats a good idea. I have had the lace fall off on it's own. Which might be a clue to me to get new garments.

I have removed the elastic on some of my cotton ones. I just use a seam ripper to remove the elastic part. The only problem though is because the cotton bottoms don't hang like mens do they tend to roll. Then again the DriSilque bottoms roll too. Which is probably why I don't wear that kind anymore.

Do you have to be a Mormon college student to take it? I was one once, but now I am graduated and am just a Mormon alumni.

I am sorry that you felt this way, it was not my intention. And yes you are correct written communication is a very ineffective method of communication. Spoken word can be misunderstood so it is no surprise that written words are misunderstood when we cannot hear the other person's inflection.

I don't assume anything about you. I never have. But I do notice that you tend to make assumptions from things that you read. Such as the proclamation. What I have a problem with is when a viewpoint is expressed as true fact when it is based on a person's interpretation of something. For example the proclamation says nothing about a mother working or not working, it is something you have read into it. Please don't assume that I am judging you, I am not trying to do any such thing. But I do have friends who are in situations that require them to work and I know what they go through at church. And because of that I will stand up and point out that the church suggests and advises that mothers stay home, but it is not a commandment, and it is not something where we should tell people what they should or should not be doing. It is just not our place. If they feel that they need to stop working they will. There are enough lessons on it to give them the hint. Please stop reading things into what I have written that I have not actually said. If I did not say it, then don't assume it. If I think you are looking down your nose at people then I will say so. Like I have said in another post, I am very careful wording posts to you or even posts where I think you could think that I am speaking to you because I know of your tendency to read things into posts that are not there. Trust me, if I intend to say something I will not dance around it, I will say it out right.

I agree with you here, and when I say support I don't mean, "Oh that is a wonderful choice you have made!" I mean rather help them in the gospel, support them in a belief of Christ. And when I say judge I mean, don't judge them on their appearence or on how they choose to live their life, do judge circumstances though and don't let someone take you someplace you don't feel comfortable. There is proper judgement at proper times.

I am very careful when I word responses to you, and no I am not calling you anything. What I am saying is that there is a tendency among Utah Mormons to have fanatics. To tell the truth, though I don't agree with the way you portray many of your opinions I do find that we tend to agree when it comes down to brass tacks. Please understand that when I make my comments I am not insinuating anything about any of the other posters. I truthfully don't care how you choose to believe the gospel or how you live your life. It is your choice and it is your right to make that choice. What I do care about though is when certain opinions in the church cause grief to members who are doing the best that they can, but are not fitting into the ideal mold.

Well as a woman there are certain proceedures that require you not to be wearing your garments, or sometimes require you to not wear the tops or the bottoms. And though I would rather avoid them as well, for my own personal health and also for the purpose of getting me pregnant I had to go through with them.

Sounds like you have a pretty awesome daughter there. Those kind of movies bother me as well, along with movies where everything goes terribly wrong for the main character. I have walked out of the room on movies like that too.

Yea, Wing is about right, basically it is like wearing a tee shirt and shorts. At least the pattern I wear is. But then again I don't wear my garments when I am having those special moments with my husband and I also don't tend to wear them leading up to it either. I use lingere. As a member it really depends on what you are comfortable with when it comes to sex. But no, I wouldn't call garments sexy.

But we are talking about those women. When you bring up the topic of working women, which is what this thread is all about, you are talking about those women. And when you claim that women should stay at home and not work based on the Proclamation you are talking about those women. Thank you for your comment, it is a general guideline, and that is what I am trying to get at. As much as the happy little home with a husband working and a wife taking care of the children at home is our goal and our ideal it is still an ideal, which doesn't always work for every family. What I am trying to say with all of these post is this: We need to remember that this ideal is still just a guideline, and if there are people out there who can not fit into this ideal for whatever reason we need to show our support for them. Those women in your Relief Society should not feel guilty, they should not end up crying. Too often we focus so hard on instructing on what the ideal family should be that we don't voice the other options out there, we don't voice the role of a woman who has to work, we don't voice the role of a woman with no children. We leave them to sorrow for what they don't have. As a woman who has struggled for 10 years with infertility I can say that lessons on the family can be painful, and often members who have that happy family don't even think about those who don't. They roll on and crush beneath them all those who don't fit the mold. And that is an awful thing to do. As important as the family is I think we also need to be aware that there are people who need to hear the voice of those who can't have children, who have to work, who have those non-perfect families. Because otherwise you are left on the outside with despair, feeling unloved and not understood. And from experience, that is a terrible place to be.

And if our judgments on other people's appearance is going to close the door to someone hearing about the gospel then it is not worth it, is it? I recently read an online comic which though beautifully drawn was very offensive to me, it was offensive because it featured Utah Mormons at their worst level of fanaticism. They gossiped about people constantly about why this woman worked and sent her daughter to day care, about the way certain people dressed or the things certain people ate, or drank. The main character was an ex-member and she hated the members for the judgmental way that they looked at everyone around them. This offended me because I for a fact know that not every member out there is judgmental, that not every member is going to speak badly about some woman who has to work and send her child to daycare. I know that not every member is going to make such a big deal about someone's appearance that they drive that person from the church. But there are enough out there that do act this way, that fit the fanatical Mormon mold. And it does not make them more righteous. When you drive someone from the gospel because you think you know how they should best live then you are going against the principles of the gospel instead of living them. Jesus said love everyone, no matter what they look like, no matter how they act, no matter how they choose to live their life. Love them and support them and don't judge them for who they are.

I agree with this, as long as you mean showering and not showing. Also there are different medical proceedures I have gone through where I have needed to remove my garments.

I agree, that picture is awful!

The problem I am still seeing here is that people are looking at those women who work and are saying, "Well you may need to or want to work but you SHOULD be living like this." Whether you feel it is or not this is making a judgment. You see someone living in a way that you have not chosen to live and you try to urge them to live the way YOU feel they should live. And this judgment is made without knowing their circumstances, without knowing what is causing them to be where they are in life. Is having a mother at home better for her children? Yes. But is it always an option? No. And that is the point, instead of looking at the mothers who can't stay at home and judging them we can find ways to support them and possibly make things easier for them. Often a mother working is not a choice that she has to make, often it is something she has to do. And even when it is a choice there is a very good chance that she has thought long and hard about that choice and why she is making it. Telling her what she should do doesn't help her it only makes her feel judged by someone who really doesn't understand. Currently I have to work, I don't want to work, but to live in the house that we have I do have to work. We moved to the suburbs so that we could live in a lower cost area and in a smaller house, I have an hour commute to work every day, my husband currently has a two hour commute. And yet all our attempts as living in a cheaper house still result in us having to both work. And this is where many people find themselves. Maybe not in our exact situation, but in similar ones. Ones where the wife has to work, or they may be in a marriage where the husband is not a member and really doesn't understand why they can't work. Sometimes if working keeps your marriage together you have to do what it takes to keep your marriage together. Again I want to reiterate, the Proclamation does not say anywhere in it that a woman must stay at home. It only says that her primary role is to nurture her children, and it does not go into how that nurturing is to be done. Will that nurturing be better if she is at home with them, chances are yes, but if that is not an option then she should do the best she can with what options she does have. And she should not have to deal with others in the church telling her what she should be doing, just because they read something into the proclamation that is not there. Not when they do not understand where she is coming from and what is happening in her life. Edit: As a side note, having read the proclamation just yesterday to refresh my memory I see the proclamation as an announcement to the world of what our church believes a family is, and what makes up a family. It states our beliefs on marriage and on couples and on procreation. It is more of a statement about our belief in heterosexual marriages than a statement of how we should live as husband and wife. Emphasis mine. I want to point out the line that says, "Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation." What do you think individual adaptaion means? I believe that it means that if disability death or other circumstances come about that a family might have to change the way they raise their family. It might require a mother to enter the work field, it may mean that she can not be a stay at home mom. And for that she should be supported, not brought down.

I think there are many reasons converts leave the church but I do think a high percentage of it comes down to the fact that they no longer feel as welcome as they once did. When they are an investigator they have the missionaries, who check up on them often, they also have members who will show interest, and then after baptism, from what I have heard, it feels like all of this support drops away. Becoming a member is a big change, not only are there changes to your life and possibly your belief structure but there is a whole different lingo that is used in the church, and you don't magically know the language once you are baptized. So you may feel lost, unsure and left on your own to figure it out. Which is why leaders have said that every new member needs a friend, and a calling. Getting busy in the church helps us learn and having someone we can be friends with helps us not only learn from a longtime member, but also gives us a support group. And last time I heard the church has more members outside the US than they do inside the US. I think the reason so many people join is because as others have said, the truth is there. Secondly, the church is the same wherever you go, doesn't matter where in the world, it is going to be the same. The same meetings the same gospel, the same truth.

I agree with the OP, my husband for example has a vandyke, a type of beard, he grows it because I like how it looks on him. He keeps it trimmed and neat, and I think he looks just fine. The insistance of short hair and no facial hair is due to social norms not to righteousness or not. Look at the pictures of many of the past prophets, Brigham Young for example would not be able to attend the college that is named after him without shaving and cutting his hair. And yet he was a prophet, he wore his hair and beard that way because it was a social norm of the day. I can understand where the request for the college students came from, I can understand where the request for temple workers comes from, but if you are not in either of those situations and you are not in a calling where your physical appearance must be a certain way then why should you be judged by how you choose to grow your hair or trim your beard? As long as you look neat and clean why should it matter? Do we really need more things to judge others on? Or do we have to come across as a judgmental people who must judge others on how they look and dress. It is much like the investigator I have heard of who was a biker and because he didn't have any "good" clothes he came to church in his biking leathers. And because of how he was dressed and the way he wore his hair and his beard the members treated him badly and he went away feeling that he did not want to be part of a church like that. Is that really what we want to become? A church who drives people away because of how they dress? Because of how they wear their hair? Hair length and beard growth is not a commandment, it never has been. And judging someone based on it is silly and closed minded. People come from all walks of life, and they make choices based on what they know, each person is at a different place along the path and the best thing we can do is to help them along the way, not to drive them down because we don't think they are living as we think they should.

The dark crystal. I loved this movie and yet the skekis (spelling?) scared the heeby jeebies out of me. I also saw part of Steven King's "Cat's Eye" and that scared me so badly I changed the way I slept and still sleep that way to this day. To explain, in the movie Cat's Eye a little girl takes in a cat, her family though tells her that the cat will steal her breath in the night and do their utmost to get rid of the cat. Turns out there is a wicked little gnome-like monster that lives in her walls that comes out at night and tries to steal her breath instead, and her only source of protection, yep you got it the cat. Scared me so badly that I had to figure out some way to sleep at night without fear that my breath would be stolen. So I slept with tons of stuffed animals and convinced myself that they would come alive and protect me in the night, and told myself that if I slept with my mouth closed that my breath would not be stolen. To this day it bothers me deeply to breathe through my mouth, and because of that I freak out when I can't breathe through my nose. My husband loves kissing me on the nose just to hear my frantic sniffles as I try to clear it so I can breathe clearly again. I also was bothered by Dumbo, the drunk scene was always too much for me. Pink elephants, ugh *shudders*. My biggest problem with scary movies is that I tend to scream during them and then end up having nightmares and fear of whatever I saw for a long time afterward. Heck I am still scared of the dark, why fill my head with other things to be scared of.

The Proclamation also does not say that a woman has to stay home to nurture her children, it just says that a mother's role is to nurture her children it says nothing how how she should do this. The idea that she must be a SAHM is something people in the church have come to imply about what the proclamation says. It is a social belief that we have developed as a religion, not something that we find in the Proclamation. Edit: I am linking the Proclamation so that you can check it and see if it mentions that women "must" stay at home in order to properly nurture her children. LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - The Family:A Proclamation to the World

I taught the CTR class and there were days where I felt like the children didn't get a single thing I said and that I had tried at the lesson and had completely bombed it. Then again that age group can be difficult to keep in control. My mom did it by filling every moment of class time with something that kept the children's intrest, but she has also gone home in tears feeling like she failed at the lesson as well. Maybe we are just a weepy family.

I always thought of trolls as the nasty little monsters that lived under bridges and caused travelers problems. Much like the story about the three billy goats and the troll under the bridge. I always figured that people on forums were called trolls because they were acting in a monsterish manner and causing problems, much like what I could imagine a bridge troll would act. It makes me curious though, as a word nerd I might just go look it up. Edit: You were right, it did originally come from the fishing term, it was a truncated version of "trolling for suckers". But it also creates a bit of a double entendre by bringing up the image of the monster troll. Interesting article regarding internet trolls found here: Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My dad aspires to be a Primary teacher, he says that he loves teaching the kids. I on the other hand like the kids but have gone home in tears because I feel like I completely failed at the lesson. Sometimes it is difficult to teach the children.

I have had blessings where I was told that I would be some such president down the line, usually Relief Society president. Not that I am really looking forward to such a time, I don't think I am ready for it and I don't think I currently have enough time to devote to it. But if it does happen I won't be surprised. I do sometimes wonder about what callings I may have at different times. For example we are currently planning on moving and we will be moving into my parent's current ward, I know that they have a low membership number and because of that many people have more than one calling. My mom keeps hoping that I will be placed somewhere where I can help her out. I wonder about where I will be called but am not exactly hoping for anything. Wondering about callings is not something I see as a bad thing, knowing what a ward needs and what you might be called to is a realistic thing to think about. As many others have stated I think it really depends on what your intentions are, if you hope to be called to a certain calling because you think it will make you look better or make you look more important then you are wishing or "aspiring" for things wrongfully. However wondering about callings and seeing a place where you might be called to and trying to make plans in your head ahead of time on how to best fulfill that calling, I think that is just fine and probably a good way of going about things. As it is I have no clue where I might be called to, and it doesn't really matter. I figure I will probably be busy whatever happens.

I agree with much of what is being said. The fact that HE kicked you out instead of leaving, and then told you not to go to a hotel and didn't care what happened to you is terrible. It is abuse. You may not realize it but that is abusive behavior. I also agree with Loudmouth that you two need help communicating. And a counselor would be a good idea, counseling in my area was about $70 a visit. Which may be more than you can afford. Truthfully it may be better that the marriage does end, if your husband is more worried about a few bucks than he is about your wellfare then he isn't worth sticking with. You deserve to have someone who cares for you more than that. If things can change to where he cares more and communication is working better then great, but if not (and it doesn't sound like he is much open to working through matters) then the marriage may not work out and it is better that you are not in an abusive relationship.

I have seen a questionare in only one ward that I have been in, that was the first ward I was in as a newlywed. The ward was for married college students and the Bishopric had new members fill out a questionare about their interests and so forth. I put down on mine that I liked to take pictures and they called me as the ward photographer (we often had new members and I had to take their pictures for the ward directory). Most wards though they don't really ask, and often you are called to something you never thought you would be called for. It all works out though, it helps to build your weaknesses into strengths.