mikbone

Id like to address the original question in this thread. It does appear that God and Lucifer do have some sort of agreement. God allows Lucifer to stay here on Earth to temp mankind. God could have exiled Satan to some other location but He didn't. Lucifer was allowed to enter into the Garden of Eden which was in a paradisical state much like the Terrestrial Kingdom. The temple narrative displays interaction between God and Satan. We have excellent records from both Joseph Smith and Moses that they each were tempted/visited by Lucifer prior to having the direct revelation from God. Even Jesus Christ was temped face to face directly by Lucifer. It is obvious to me that Lucifer has a role to play that was set forth during the pre-mortal existence. There must be rules that were agreed upon by both God and Lucifer concerning direct interaction between the Gods, Lucifer, and man. Lucifer is a conundrum in my mind. I cannot understand his motivation. Does he have a mentor? Is there any possibility of redemption for him. Is He a good guy playing a difficult role??? I don't know. And every time I consider him I come up confused.

I guess you just proved that God is an abstract number!

“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.” -Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965 “None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods — all others would have to inherit another kingdom — they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?].” -Brigham Young, in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855 “Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.” -Joseph F. Smith, Improvement Era 14:87 [November 1910] “I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.” -J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3 “It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.” -James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421 The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial—that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory—having before them the privilege also of eternal progress—have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance into the celestial kingdom—they may arrive where these were, but never where they are.” B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392. “There is never a time,” the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.” 23 Boyd K. Packer, “The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 18

You can die at childbirth and be a celestial cantidate. Moroni was part of society. He was well educated. Had access to multiple records from the Nephite society as well as the brass plates from an other society. He was a captain of 10,000 men during the last battle at Cumorah (Mormon 6:12). Daniel Boone was also a strong member of a society. Books were written about him. He was an officer during the Revolutionary War and an elected official of Virginia. Did Daniel make his own firearms, and tools with which he used to build his cabin? I seriously doubt it. I am an Orthopaedic surgeon. My profession is so specialized that if I were sent back in time to a bronze age society my skills and education would be a total waste. Without stainless steel and titanium hardware, let alone X-rays, my options of healing are severly limited. But today if you break your hip I am your guy. 200 years ago I could do nothing for you except possibly put you into a 20-30 pound hip spika cast that would cause lots of other problems... That's assuming that I could make casting materials, plaster of paris from scratch which I have never done... and was never taught to me during my medical education of 9 years...

Yeah, the guy in the video went to the department head of metalurgy at his local university and asked for advice on how to smelt iron ore from scratch. After an hour of lecture he realized that the learned man had no practical knowledge. So he actually went to a 1600 era text. And there were no active mines in his country... I think that we rely upon China for our raw materials of metal now...

The plan of salvation requires a community or more specifically, a family. God needs and wants a very large family. Yes scientific and spiritual progress. The original premise for the toaster project comes from a book, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. In the book the protagonist has his 20th century knowledge and is sent to a society that exists in the bronze age. At first he figures that within a week he will be the king of society. But eventually he recognizes that in and of himself he cant do jack. All his suposed 20th century knowledge was totally worthless. There were no computers, and he certainly couldn't make one. No phone. He cant make penacillin. He gets hungry and realizes that he can barely make a sandwich but couldn't make a toaster if his life depended on it. God made his children and the universe for a purpose. He could have made enough space to enclose our sun and solar system, but He didn't. There is alot of space out there for the using. Without children Moses 1:39 becomes null and void.

You did good. I had 1/2 a Mike's Hard Lemonade while on a skiing trip to vail CA. I found it in a display with the rest of the cokes so I assumed... I though it was a particularily good Lemonade till my friends started looking at me oddly. "We thought that you did't drink..." Woops. I gave the rest of the drink to someone at the table and got a Mt. Dew.

Yeah, thats what I'm saying. The Gospel requires a community. God requires a community.

Nope, its an example of why God wants us to be industrious and productive. I believe that He wants us to contribute.

Well, One man by himself is essentially worthless. We take for granted all the wonderful things that we have in this world that were provided for us from the labors of others and the discoveries of generations before us. This guy tried to make a toaster from scratch and after 9 months of research, work and cheating... He got the element to heat for 5 seconds before it broke. I bet that God made us because he enjoys working with us and looks foreword to the things that we can do to contribute to the Celestial society.

Thomas Thwaites: How I built a toaster -- from scratch | Video on TED.com I loved this video. Its an excellent example as to how totally worthless we are as individuals. This kind of example helps to explain why God continues to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Best scripture for this thread Moses 3:15 And I, the Lord God, took the man, and put him into the Garden of Eden, to dress it, and to keep it. As far as I know that command is still in effect. Hunting - Moses 4:27. It is my belief that God took Adam hunting, showed him how to clean the animal, how to perform the ordinance of sacrifice (Moses 5:6) and then how to make their own clothes.

2nd hit on Google Plan of salvation/Sons of Perdition/Can women be "Sons of Perdition" - FAIRMormon

LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - Performing Priesthood Ordinances He can't lay his hands on the baby, but there is no reason he cannot hold the baby. You can always wait and bless the baby after he gets the melchezidek priesthood.

Thanks for the heads up. Ill be sure to watch it tonight.

While preparing for my elders quorum lesson a couple weeks ago I made a realization about the millennium that I had not appreciated previously. 2 Peter 3:10-12 (New heaven, elements shall melt, earth will be burned up) D&C 133:23-26 (The oceans will be driven into the North countries, the Islands shall become one land, The land of Zion & the land of Jerusalem will be turned back to their own place, as it was prior to their division) According to the above scripture HUGE changes will be put into place during the Lords coming in preperation for the millennium. The Earth will return to a Pangaea like state. The elements will melt. The Earth will burn. Im my opinion if this is to occur, then the face of the Earth will be totally changed. Essentially there will be no evidence that mankind had ever lived in a telestial state after the first generation dies at the age of 72. The world will be a new clean slate. No skyscrapers, no temples, no computers, no nothing! I am sure that there will be records that are preserved by the lord that will be allowed back on the Earth but other than those records everything else will be lost. If the second coming occurs in 5 years, the house and land that I own will no longer be mine because its location and apearance will have changed and there will be no record to prove that I owned it... The Earth will be in a paradisiacal state, or terrestrial, or like it was in Eden. (Article of Faith 10) Satan's influence will be gone. There shall be no sorrow. A man will grow to the age of a tree and then be twinkled. In that day whatever a man will ask it will be given him. (D&C 101: 27-31) The 2/3 sealed portion of the BoM will arrive. As well as the record from the lost ten tribes.

Just tell him. He sounds like a great guy. If you are doing what is right and he already recognizes the changes in you, the hard part is already over. You don't have to scare him or give him any ultimatum. Just say it matter of factly. Something like, "I had a dream the other night that was spiritual, and it had an effect on me. I'd like to do some more research about the church if it is ok with you?" I wouldn't mention missionaries, or home teachers or Bishop yet... Ask if its ok to read the Book of Mormon, Bible, or Ensign in the house. Too bad general conference is over. It is the best way to introduce someone to the LDS church in my opinion. Unfortunately the missionaries coming over to the house can sometimes be overwhelming. And if you are already baptised you don't need to go through the discussions anyway. Listening to the mormon channel or Your LDS Radio - Hymns on streaming audio is also an easy way to have the gospel in the house in a very non-threatening way. The most important thing you can do by far is show him that the gospel makes you happy and brings joy to your family. Dosen't matter how long it takes. Say your prayers, do what is right, honor your husband and let him know that your respect him. Do your part, and the the Lord will pick up the slack. Good luck. We are rooting for you. Keep us posted.

True, but if push came to shove, I would probably follow the prophet. Joseph Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph fired a gun - FAIRMormon

True, but it wouldn't make for a good post-apocalyptic fiction plot. Disabling electricity and gunpowder would throw our society back into the bronze age. No iphone, no playstation or DirecTV, can you imagine the horrors?! The author of the novel, S. M. Stirling, who I don't believe is LDS. Made a point of commenting about our food storage program. If society started to get ugly because of a natural global catastrophe, world war, or some other event. How much upheaval would it take to completely disable our ability to fill up unleaded at the local quickie mart? Look at what happened in New Orleans during Katrina. If that was the case, firearms (and the knowledge of how to use them) would be an essential part of maintaining your food storage.

Authorized King James Version - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good point. One might say that firearms are an essential part of food storage. That way you could provide for your family by hunting. And of course self defense. But if you read the recently popular fiction book Dies the Fire and the laws of physics change after a world wide event such that electricity and gunpowder stop working we are really hosed.

Perhaps this is what I was recalling... This Is My Name Forever Anyway, what I was trying to get at was that Moses probably had a similar revelation as the Brother of Jared. That Moses was introduced to Jehovah as not only the God of Abraham, but also as the Father's chosen to carry out the plan of salvation. That Moses was allowed within the veil to recognize Jehovah as the own who was like unto God (Abr 3:24) during the pre-mortal existence. And that Moses was also allowed the knowledge that Jehovah would eventualy become the mortal savior. The knowledge of who Jehovah was, who he is, and what His future roles in the plan of salvation were to be; are way more important then knowing his name.

An infinite amount of eternal families Everyone in our pre-mortal existance were spiritual siblings. But with each successive connection the relationship must get stronger... Those who sided with Jehovah instead of Lucifer. No doubt we had closer relations with some spirits moreso than others prior to Earth life. We have significant attachment with the family/friends we have made here on Earth. The Sealing ordinance must be one heck of a bond. No doubt the bond of Husband and Wife is greatest though. I assume that it will be much like it is here on Earth. For those that make it to the highest lvl of the Celestial Kingdom I believe we will all hang out for a long period of time and continue to learn and progress. Eventually husbands and wives will want to continue to progress by leaving the nest and creating their own spiritual families. Perhaps when a celestial sealed couple wishes to start creating their own spiritual children they have to leave the nest and go to a distant part of the universe and create their own galaxy or equivalent... I would assume that the relationships of spiritual parents and spiritual children will trump all other relationships other than that of sealed spouses. Although a person's relationship to thier savior must be somewhat special...

Excepting of course, the temple...

OK, thanks. I never was a very good student of language and tenses. Can you give me a example of what it should be in english? Or is (I am that I am) the only translation? Nother question. John 8 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. I recall that the KJV of the NT is an English translation of a Greek tranlastion of the Hebrew. So is Jesus saying that prior to Abraham He was continuously present??