Gramajane

It happened to you son on his Houston TX mission, that a preacher realized that the church was true, but then that if he joined that he would have no income. --- so far as we know, he has not joined. Yet there are others I read about who did join, and did lose their career, but then one went on to write books, and others to other work, like teaching. I do believe that most leaders of other congregations DO a lot of work for good, God and that it does help. It is just that there is I believe more good, and more for God that they could do, yet everyone NEEDS to follow their own conscience or they are not living their own lives. I just pray that we all will continually seek for guidance from the Holy Spirit. In my studies I also came across the Nun who was such an amazing person that she was assigned to work in Rome, but the Holy Spirit lead her to the church-- it is an amazing story. How about we work to not judge others? I even have wondered if sometimes God has held a few people from accepting the gospel, as he needed them to work "outside" the gospel to protect the church etc. I am thinking of Colonel Kane (I think I have the name right?) during pioneer times. === How about Lets just each look to our own lives in following Jesus while we offer the good we have to any who will listen? --- It feels right to me :)

It seems to me, Heber13, that possibly you haven't spent much time in depth *study* of LDS or other religions? Maybe you are speaking of just sitting in Sunday School and Sacrament meeting, and comparing that to other churches and also comparing social gatherings? You see, from the time my mother suggested to me as a teenager (I am now in my 60s) that I needed to know what other churches had to offer, before I could really compare, I have had the hobby of investigating other faiths, talking to their members about what they believe, reading THEIR (not anti) doctrines, along with indepth study of LDS. (I went to my own meetings and added others ;0 I have learned a LOT! One of the things I found was a comparative chart made by an LDS, that had the religions listed edit what was said about their church, on quite a few main topics- like the God Head, baptism, life after death, etc. What was amazing to me was when I took the chart and went to different faiths and had them check it, they agreed that different congregations across town, with the same name, might teach/believe differently because of the Pastor etc. I was even amazed that one of my friends bragged that they actually voted on what the truth was, so they might change from week to week. Later as I was an adult I was pleased to get to travel and find what others had told me was true, that the LDS church is the same all around the world. Even in Tonga! Same lessons given in correlation (but a different language!) same hymns, same sacrament prayers, etc! Also with speaking to the missionaries from so many different countries, that served their missions in the different towns we lived in, it was awesome. I suggest that yes, there is much good that many churches do, but there is much more truth and light in ours. My study in many areas, even in Near Death Experiences has supported my faith that has its basis in the witness of the Holy Spirit. I sure am sorry that you seem to think LDS are elitist, as that isn't my take. What we have is a DUTY to share, because we have been blessed to know and if we don't we will be held accountable. Study of LDS and other faiths has been a joy. Oh, I should mention that I have also done much study in Anti LDS stuff, and that is so full of lies, distortions etc, that it is disgusting. The restored church is true, the people are not perfect, but we can all know the way, and God has made it that ALL can come, which is our duty-- to invite all to Jesus Christ, to obey his commandments. -- like baptism, as he showed us. Some churches even Baptist ones now say it isn't necessary. May you choose to study and search for truth and then share what you find. Gramajane

Some of the most important questions for everyone are Is there a purpose in life? Do I have a spirit that existed before this life and will endure after?

Well, it may or may not be a comfort to you, but as it seems from what you say, that your marriage is not on a celestial level here on earth? (truly working daily to progress to become more Christlike etc) ---- since that same spirit and follow through, will be your norm after this life and it seems the teachings of the gospel have not seemed to reach deep enough into your hearts, (does "reconciled" mean- not fully repented of by confession to God, husband and bishop?) --- then I rather doubt you have an eternal marriage, though you may have had a temple wedding. We can not force others to change- we can only (with Gods help) work to improve ourselves. God bless you!

With the "Love and Logic" parenting (google it- there are books and dvds and college classes, even a free newsletter with helps) teen years were no problem (ok- way less of a problem) and we even did foster care and with the Love and Logic it was fun to be a sub school teacher! It is a great amazing way to work with anyone- even with co-workers and is how I want to be treated! I think it is how Heavenly Father even works with us. check it out. :)

Just realized that I should have also said that Jesus showed us to be baptized (and how- immersion by one with the proper priesthood authority) and left apostles and prophets that HE would guide, to help us keep on the path. Later also restoring his church, again calling a prophet and apostles. :)

I understand that some teachings are like learning math-- first you need to learn the symbols (formation of the numbers) and the value of each and how they increase when fit together, then how to add, multiply and divide etc.--- It is not really helpful to try to understand algebra or calculus etc when in the beginning stages of learning, and it might even overwhelm one and just confuse them more. It works best when one learns line upon line and precept upon precept. We need milk before meat (and then meat sparingly?) ---- The most important things we need to know are what to DO to be Christlike, and if we get those basics right-( love the Lord thy God with all thy heart might mind and strength and love thy neighbor as thyself), and we come to church, study, learn and obey the rest of the commandments, we will progress. However, if we ONLY learn doctrine, but do not have a heart changed to Christlike love, so we act (pay tithing even) because we LOVE God, not because we fear but wish we could keep our money, then the actions will not really be a help to us, as God judges us by our heart of hearts MAINLY and also by our actions which usually proceed from our hearts. So what do we take with us when we die? The Christlike love and actions we have given away and the knowledge we gained?

the pre mortal Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Test. so that would be who Moses saw the back parts of and face to face. And yes, I also understand that God the Father introduces his son, is where we see the Father, as Jehovah/Jesus was to be the most high over the earth (but his Father is higher than him and over all things?)

Work to be in scripture reading at least 20 min a day. :)

It is when we question things that we find out what we really know or don't. God wants us to go to study and go to him when we lack wisdom and for confirmation through the Holy Ghost. We are not to just be doing blind obedience. FAIR is a help, and just be aware that anti distorts things so much that though there may be a nugget of truth, that it becomes a lie when so distorted- like a fun house mirror. Get to the sources, read the context, compare the whole flow of the Bible, and what other things were taught by the same person. Yes, you can come out much stronger by study AND prayer- so you have the path, keep with the scripture reading- together out loud, each reading a verse at a time and talking it over when questions come. Remember, as I understand the greeting MOST used by Jesus was "Be of good cheer, or Be not afraid" as it is Satan that wants us to fear as in fear we pull back and he gains influence! It will all work out as you trust God and obey the commandments. Nothing will be put before you that will be more than you can handle, if you love (obey) the Lord. God bless us, everyone!

The most important things about the Gospel are that we are to love God and one another. We are to forgive when we are hurt, but we also get to protect ourselves from being hurt again. Some times it helps to try to understand where the other person who is being an agent of unease in us, is coming from. Is he afraid if he teaches incorrect doctrine that it will be on his head, and so if you leave it is his fault? That would be not helpful thinking on his part and might cause him to be pushy which is not Christlike. It is not the doctrines ABOUT Christ (what he looks like exactly, what "powers" he has etc- ) that are so important, but what we are to DO to be like Christ. I do think all of life is a test-- how are we going to act/react, are we going to choose to be loving and kind or angry and rejecting? I think you are on the right track, but realize that it is not a "all or nothing" type of thing-- it is line upon line, precept upon precept. Would it help if you could feel comfortable enough to share your feelings with this teacher? What if you said something to him like--- "I have issues from my childhood with having things forced things on me that hurt me, so I really like to be invited/shared with and not force fed even the wonderful teachings of the gospel. So if I start feeling forced, then I have trouble not fighting back. Can you be extra SUPER gentle in teaching me please? " Do you think something like that might help?

The REAL question is "What would Jesus do?". I think this sister (we are ALL bro n sis, right?) needs some great visiting teachers! She needs some "built in friends" who will listen to her and so get to know her as she (and ALL of us) are valuable children of God. Maybe she comes because she feels the Holy Spirit (which is loving acceptance- not angry judging or rejecting). I think if she comes enough some of the teachings may just reach her, but it is the people that are the agents of main transfer. It sounds like she is not noisy, dressed immodestly or handling others personal belongings or bodies. I understand that even if someone drunk were to come in our Sacrament service, we are not to eject them, but let them stay kindly escort them to the foyer and help them get to their home, if they are loud. ---- Maybe you are on the right track to question guilt in yourself? Is your heart being loving and Christlike to her? Only Christ knows her heart of hearts, but someone could get to know her and see what help is needed. Maybe that someone might be you, and that would help you become more Christlike-- but I fear that if your heart is not good to start with in approaching her, that being around you would not help her. That is sure sad for you.

Since there is only one of the current candidates for Pres., that has been a lawmaker, --- then we don't point fingers at the others? I was looking the other day at international news, reading that in Italy now, they are limiting peoples ability to use their OWN money in banks. Scary! I think the "not all the eggs in one basket" is a pretty good idea if we look at the big picture! I don't like that banks are getting bigger and bigger and how they treat people. I sure wish there was a credit union we could use in this little town instead! -- It would be overwhelming to have enough money to use the Cayman Islands for what small amount I have to deal with. (I think better in smaller numbers!)

If fear is what is to help us know there is danger, and anger is to help us know that our boundaries have been breached, then-- just as I fear the consequence of having to live with myself if I ever stole money from ANYBODY, I would fear if I robbed God. Besides which, I have seen so many personal miracles from paying tithing over my whole life. We had money come to us that we thought we would never see again, (bad loans to people who never repaid, for years and years, -- only to have them hand money to us when we REALLY needed it later!) -- I could mention about five more amazing things. In the scriptures the word "fear" is used often to mean "respect". I sure hope we all respect ourselves and other too much to rob anybody!

friends first is totally best--- it is way easier to go up the ladder to boyfriend, girlfriend but so much more pain to break up! Trouble being, that I get the impression you just want "A" girlfriend/boyfriend-- and have not really had those special feelings about the few that really stand out for you? Girls want to believe/know that they are totally special-- and if you don't see the girl you are asking to spend time with you, as at LEAST more interesting than the others (at this point) then why in the world ask her out? Group dates are where you find the few who you want to know better. Friends and more friends are great-- they are the ones who invite you to parties and may just have another friend for you to meet, or a cousin etc! Charlie Brown said "I need all the friends I can get." Friend is one step up from aquaintance, and then there are close friends and best friends. Hopefully who you marry with be a BEST friend-- so you have FUN and LOVE all your life long!

So, were your parents the type that have friends over and go to their homes? In other words did you have good role models? Mine didn't, and it has effected me. I have tons of acquaintances and people I feel closer to, but so rarely have time together with unless we are working on some project for the church or community. My best friends have been in my own family, my sisters and my husband (whom I began with as a pen pal and only met about 6 months later). I had only one guy in my high school ask me on a date, and it was to a church function (not LDS) where they were to bring someone not in their church, and I went and had fun, but he never asked me out again, I really really liked him too, even before he asked me out. I dated in college finally, but nothing serious. I think I was trying too hard to be perfect, and I didn't really know how to be me. I learned better over time, but ironically dated mostly non members, as I was too scared around the "eligible" LDS guys. In letters though, I could be, even with members, which is how I got to know the wonderful guy I have been married to for over 40 years! My parents both had issues with self esteem (which apparently slopped over onto me) and I just didn't know how to act. I used movies (thank goodness back then they were not so bad!) to help me have a clue, but I was pretty awkward in social settings for sure! Both my parents were college grads but that is no cure for social awkwardness. I have since learned about Augsburgers (sp?) which is a type of autism, and there are levels in that too, where social things especially are difficult. I had one person tell me that they thought I might have a little challenge with that. (we are all on some level of dysfunction) but she later changed her mind, when I apologized to her for something, as she had thought when I hadn't realized she had given me a bonus in my check, so I hadn't thanked her, that I didn't have feelings of gratitude etc. (she didn't know me very well) I didn't keep good track of my hours relating to pay, and just knew she was honest, so didn't worry. ---- Anyway, I usually have tons of stuff I am working on, and I love to serve in the church etc (I make costumes especially castle time ones, and I love to do interior decoration ((my favorite aerobic activity is moving furniture ;0 )) and I super enjoy reading plus I answer anti challenges :) ---Mormon Voices is way cool way to serve! --- so since I have my family, and our kids and our 17 grand kids, I have built in friends :) I think you will figure out what you need to do and asking others for advice is a great start!

Ok, here is something on prayer, but a little off topic of the Lords Prayer exactly. It is a joke I heard, but it makes the point and is actually sad to me. --- Two old guys had gone out in a borrowed boat to fish, but neither of them were experienced, but they had bought all the fishing gear and were super excited if not too bright. One used a gaff (hand held large hook for those who don't know) to bring a fish aboard but in the fishing films he had watched, they were not in a rubber boat! BAD news! Middle of the lake, non swimmers, boat slowly sinking. One says to the other, "Do you pray!?!" "No", his pal replies "but as a kid I lived next to a church and sometimes they used a mike system that could be heard at our house. ---- Let me see if I can remember something!" "I- 25, N-8, B-54...." Yea, pitiful!!

To me, as I wouldn't be a peeping tom to spying on couples in real life, nor do I think someone would want others watching their private intimate time with their spouse (or non spouse, even if they didn't have much virtue I do not watch sex scenes (we fast forward or look away if in a theater that we didn't know would stoop to that in a picture that us supposed to be only PG -- as I sure don't need or want thoughts of others in my head when I am with my dear husband. It would be like being haunted I think, and comparisons are odious! I think maybe that might be a good time to use the Lords prayer? (to get us back on topic ;0

I was puzzled by someone (can't remember who said it in this topic" that said they " said the Lords prayer when they needed to pray but couldn't think what to say." Having questions on why they needed to pray-- if they didn't know what to say? Even if you had a loved one that you called on the phone, just to hear their voice and let them know you loved them and were thinking of them, wouldn't you say THAT? I doubt I would just quote some scripture that didn't have specific application to what was currently going on? I did have one time, when I got a terrible feeling that prayers were needed by someone I loved RIGHT THEN! I dropped to my knees and just asked our Heavenly Father to send help to whomever it was who needed it, and plead for protection to them (that was what I felt was needed-urgently.) and I kept praying till my feeling of the urgency dwindled. I felt exhausted, that the prayers had been really pulling on heaven. So of course then I began phoning around to check on our kids and my family. I finally found that my youngest bro (who was an adult then too) had gone on a kind of survival trip as an assistant, to help kids at risk see that they can conquer hard things etc-- and the trips are supposed to be, and USUALLY were really really well prepared for so my sister thought everything was probably ok . Later I found out from my brother that totally weird weather had come up that HAD put them in pretty desperate straits! It was apparently FOR them that my prayers were needed. Yet, even in THAT case, when I didn't know exactly WHY I needed to pray, I could and did talk to God about that fact, and asked for whatever help was needed for whoever needed it. I can't imagine just quoting something from scripture, but whatever you feel applies, does I guess? . Other times, I have felt that just a "Help!" cry can be a prayer! My kids told me they were annoyed when I didn't warn them, but would start suddenly praying when I had to drive in Seattle traffic (steep hills, not good signage, not being familiar with routes, older car with stick shift and crazy drivers! ) --- I do not enjoy driving anyway, but you do what you have to.

I just clicked on the link and I THINK it will work--- just can't click "watch" right now, as I don't want to wake up my dear husband who does not suffer from insomnia as I sometimes do. I bookmarked the Dead Sea Scrolls, so I can try later. I do have some books on them, (haven't opened them in years) but it does not seem that they were all available yet, and my my my but it was hard to understand some of them-

Can I just watch them on my computer? We dumpted our cable TV years ago.

I do not know (as I haven't been on here much) if this reply will end up where I would like it to, as I received in my email a comment, but can't find it now, in this topic. It was about that supposedly being able to produce children was not any requirement for marriage-- which point I beg to differ with. I understand that historically, if one knew one couldn't have children, and didn't let the intended know that before marriage, it was grounds for divorce. Also, even in the Bible, when Rachel couldn't have children, she gave her handmaiden to her husband, in plural marriage that she might consider she had brought children that way? Is that right? Though it seems that then she was despised by the handmaiden and it brought sorrow. I think that if the govt. could just get out of the whole marriage issue, and deal with civil unions it would be best. But then there is the issue of taxes to supposedly support a family unit bringing children into the world or adopting. Maybe it comes down to what is the best upbringing for children? Role models that perpetuate the growth of the nation? says in the Bible "The man is not without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord"? But then we are back to separation of church and state? Or I should say, not promoting one faith other another, or over no faith? Also, then what about children born here to illegal immigrants? There is a lot to this topic, and I haven't had any breakfast nor vitimins yet. I think I'll give it a rest and thing about it some more! (I try to be open minded- but it is hard to even know when we are closed!

The clothing she wore (back when we were not allowed to wear pants to school) was the least feminine possible, in color, and style, and cut, and pattern of fabric, same with her shoes and as I said before, her hair style. (in high school, I remember her wearing a wig that was more feminine) but that is all beside the point. I suppose my point is, that I do not think she was rejected by the LDS.

I was in the meeting when a man nobody knew got up and bore a testimony, in which he said he had just been walking down the street and saw the church house and decided to come in, and he had a sweet testimony of the Savior. I don't remember what else he said, or if he got the missionary discussions or anything. It would be nice to know. I doubt it would be a good idea to get up and rail against the church in a testimony meeting though. I also wonder if it is ok to sing in the choir? I think you are not supposed to partake of the sacrament. --- I was on a supposedly non denominational board years ago (actually I participated in quite a few) anyway, this one had an area for LDS, and other areas, and for quite a while I really enjoyed answering questions and commenting. I would always supply scriptural support and I never hid that I was LDS. I did get some who began to attack what they thought were our beliefs (anti garbage) and it was quite edifying to get to show what we really believe. Then one of the moderators came on and said I was now going to be limited to the LDS area only-- which I thought was weird but it was their board. I still had a lot of people talking to me, and then the moderators told me in a private message, that there were pastors who were upset with the board, that said their people were coming to them with questions, and that I was spreading lies etc. I explained that was not true, etc, but they said ONLY if I would publically on their board admit that I didn't believe that Jesus was the Christ etc, would they allow me to stay on the board! That was incredible!!! Talk about doing satans work! Well, I naturally refussed to do that, and so I was banned for posting, and I didn't even get to explain to the people on there what had happened. I wondered if they went and deleted all the comments I had made. Anyway, some did get to see SOME truth about LDS. :)

I have a hard time to believe there are "gay" children. Though I do remember in 6th grade there was a girl who wore her hair like Elvis, and acted way more male than female. I understood that her parents were contentious and not what was "the usual" and she also claimed that she still believed in Claus, as she said anybody who didn't got a lot less presents. (manipulative?) Anyway, she was not rejected for her actions. Oh, wait!!! I forgot-- I actually got in the ONLY fight I ever had with anyone in school, with her! We were playing a game (I forget the name, but it was somewhat like "Capture the Flag" but entailed dowels in a circle on each side, with a line the width of the playing field, where if you were captured (touched) you had to stay until someone from your team came and held hands with you as you ran together back to your side. It was a great game.) Anyway, she was cheating. She had been captured and was supposed to stay behind the line till freed by someone on her team, but she didn't. She even pretended that she had the power to bring another prisoner out to freedom, and then she was captured again, but she again cheated and went and got one of my teams dowels (there were several-- not like just one flag) and ran to her side as if she had captured it legally. I confronted her with her cheating, but she just got angry and said it didn't matter (she didn't even deny it if I remember right?) and I don't remember for sure but I think she began to push me, and we exchanged a couple of blows then the recess bell rang. (I wonder what would have happened if that bell hadn't rung? She was in my class and larger and stronger than me, but I was faster (maybe that is why she defaulted to cheating, as I could easily tag her? ) So --- some of her actions were rejected-- at least by me. But not any that I recall having to do with her gender. I wish her well, where ever she is now. We all have our mountains to climb. God bless us, everyone! Gramajane