Gabelma

LOL yeah its like how many people would accept a man with a beard, long hair, dress and sandals in an LDS church today? Charley

I have - I went to my Stake Presidency and said I was no longer in a position where I could sustain the Branch Presidency until I had handed the situation over to them and that if they were called again I couldn't in all conscience raise my hand to sustain them. There was nothing wrong with the men involved all lovely guys but they were being bullied by some forceful sisters - everyone in the situation believed they were doing the right thing but what was happening had brought our branch to the point where the spirit present on a Sunday was evil - I could not sustain that. Branch Presidency was reorganised shortly afterwards. And I wish I had turned down the calling, I had, had a strong feeling I should, but had accepted it at the time it nearly destroyed my faith, not just in the church in God himself. We are entitled to our own revelation on matters and I do now unless I have a straight testimony of the calling ask if I can go away and pray about it. Our branch was in a dire situation, set after set of missionaries were going away despondant they were terrified of bringing investigators to our branch. However I do have faith that as bad as the problems were the people in those positions were placed there by the Lord as a result of 20 years of problems now in the process of being healed and overcome is probably one of the best examples of a unit in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I know I have been humbled again, and again and asked to reasses my feelings. If we hadn't had those problems and if I hadn't had that disaster of a calling the branch wouldn't be quite as special as it is now or growing as quickly as it is. (last year there was one child in primary, this year we have 15). Ironically this has happened with everyone involved repenting, people learning to forgive and forget and one member of the same branch presidency being called again. It has also taught be to trust that even the bad situations can be part of God's plan, because out of the greatest evil comes the greatest good - Its not a case of trusting your Bishop etc its a case of trusting the Lord knows what is right for everyone, that he knew why he called that Bishop - even if you are having a hard time as a result of someone being called that hard time is a time of growth for you -Charley

Except for one thing American's don't speak English lol it should be American otherwise it becomes bad English Why do you want to trade one type of foreign person in your country for another? Charley

Charley, did you show this to us before? I've seen it before but can't remember why? I love it! Elphie Yes I did it is fantastic lol - I know you thread was ment as a joke sorry I did find it very funny , but societies attitude is just as dangerous and needs challenging - you know me lol placards at the ready. Too skinny is just as dangerous and unhealthy yet it is portrayed as beautiful today, up until the Industrial Revolution in 1750 Big Girls were considered beautiful, to be able to eat was a sign of wealth and ironially seen as healthy. Just as our society sees tiny figures as healthy when its not. Personally I think best way of reducing obesity in our societies is increasing self esteem in the individual - how many people over stuff when down? And just because CK doesn't find us attractive should be a big deal, the only people who need to find us attractive are ourselves. Thats what is so great about the song - most of it is about the girl finding herself beautiful. Charley Charley

I found that video mildly disturbing. It's the classic pendulum syndrome. Someone perceives that a standard (in this case, thin is beautiful) has gone too far in one direction and so they--like a pendulum--swing to the other side and advocate a new standard that's diametrically opposed to the original (in this case, big is beautiful). Both commit an error because the truth is in the middle, not on the outer extremes. There are many types of beauty. If we're talking physical beauty, I'm sorry, but to me big is not beautiful...cellulite is not beautiful...rolls are not beautiful. The person behind the exterior may be beautiful in terms of personality and kindness...but big bodies aren't beautiful to me and that's pendulum psychology for ya. So if your spouse became overweight for whatever reason you would no longer find her attractive or beautiful? What about if their hair grows grey? Maybe a wrinkle? I know I have parents who feel the same way as you do and as a result can't keep a relationship. I like knowing my husband is a better man and loves me for me, I don't need to panic about the lbs. Charley,

First off, I would never throw a doughnut to anyone else! Pres Benson, in a talk at BYU many years ago, gave a great line about our propensity to eat that which is bad for us. He termed it "digging our graves with our own teeth"... LOL well they have to be dug with something :) personally I know I have a pretty good diet but if I hadn't got sick and needed to find a way to feel better I wouldn't have. Yet before that I was 98lbs and 5ft2 and could eat what I wanted without worrying about the lbs. I also still have a strong belief at nearer 154lbs I am a much better person, I was humbled lol and I am much happier with me which in turn I believe makes me a more beautiful woman. And I am gonna post that song again because I feel beautiful everytime I leave the house: http://youtube.com/watch?v=tcRiXOONqf0 To me beauty has bug all to do with what the eye can see Charley

Ok this is just going by the way I receive personal revelation or when I have the keys to a calling, but when you get the impression that both is correct then you just go with personal preference, so it is entirely possible for the Bishophric to all have different preference. Which is why the Bishop or President in a calling needs to have the final say or it could go on for ever lol but then every so often you see someone called and you know that noone else could do the job - our current RS President is the perfect example, personally I would never have picked but God did and by gum noone else could have acheived what she has - she took the worlds most miserable Relief Society and has turned it into the organisation it should be, when she was called I just knew that she was right even though I had fallen out with her not long before that. She was an inspired choice and noone else could have done that job. Charley

Maybe - if you believe that 130 year old people traveled up and down mountains. In he story he saddled up a donkey as it won't let me say ###### , bet I could use the English word though which is much ruder anyway given as I know 80 year olds that go rock climbing I see know reason why someone who had lived to 130 and was in good shape couldn't sit on the back of a donkey and travel up the mountain Charley

Let he who is without sin throw the first doughnut and please pass it this way lol Charley

I hear you Charley, but wait until they make you get rid of your pink hair! I'm making a bigger deal out of it than it actually bothers me, although I still think adults should be allowed to make personal decisions about their own peronal appearance. But its really not that big a deal to me. I think it just hit me wrong. Take care, Elphie LOL just because individual members make it restrictive doesn't mean the church has to be and they can't alter my thoughts and feelings, which for me is where I find the church amazing I love being able to contemplate the multiverse theory or eternal profression or anything I want and having that Iron Rod to give it perspective, without which the more I learn the less I would actually know:) and I am not going to complain if it means I get fewer callings:)- actually I may be going back to brown purely because I have found a natural hair colouring, they don't do it in pink :) but I would change it anyway if too offensive after all it really is just a hair colour I don't see it as a huge deal, but I am not shaving my legs in the winter or wearing makeup they would affect my quality of life. I have already sourced some pretty new age clothing that works in any situation. Charley

-If its the way Your God is guiding you then I guess you need to follow it, being LDS isn't always the best way for people to reach their full potential. I am not about to knock your personal revelation, as its the bedrock of my faith However don't expect people to automatically see the church your way for me its not remotely restrictive and the Temple as much about bringing me closer to God than the actual ceremonies so any changes aren't a a problem. Charley

Not always I am overweight but my favourite foods are fruit, veg, rice my diet is almost entirely compatible with the Word of Wisdom. I can't exercise much because of my disability but my diet is 90% healthy food, and also everybody has their faults even if someone is eating the wrong kind of foods does it matter? It does not automatically follow that a slim person is eating very healthily - I know my brother is 6ft and less than 100lb gorges on all sorts of junk. Beauty comes from the inside out and a sparkling personality is better than a miserable person. You can abuse your body and mind in many ways and because it is something we all do I personally think its unfair that just because you can see the effects that person doesn't have the right to feel good about themselves. Then you should appreciate that being unable to exercise or in fact just being ill can cause depression etc - you need to be taught how to eat when you are ill and in that position because its a huge change. I also o know through working with people with my own disability that for some people accepting they are just going to have to be bigger and not stressing themselves out over food can help them cope better with life in general. And tbh once those people do belive they are beautiful they are more likely to lose weight. Although my experience is a lot of people in the healthcare profession don't pay much attention to the mental side of an illness, and a person becomes a condition - maybe oneday we will be treated holistically but until then its generally better not just judge the person who is overweight. It frustrates me when people try to tell me being fat is ok. Its not ok, it causes a multitude of health problems including raised cholesterol, high blood pressure, heart attacks and strokes. It teaches your children bad habits. My kids will look at a macdonalds the same way I view heroin! lol maybe a bit of an exageration but you get my drift. The Goddess Too much obessesion with healthy food and exercise can also be dangerous - my daughter will look at a MacDonalds or fruit or veg and I honestly don't know which she would pick. Like my Gran used to say choclate and apple pie's etc were brain food and what kept you sane. Given she was in her 90s and in really good health when she died despite having a heart condition since she was 12 I'll take her advice lol and she was obese in her 30s and 40s - she was my definition of a truly beautiful woman, her skin and eyes were always bright and her hair in good condition so she wasn't unhealthy. Another lady I know who still ski's, plays tennis etc in her 80s is a very beautiful woman but she is a bigger lady, (well large around she actually a tiny lady). but she has more energy and less illness than most half her dress size and half her age. Elphie is quite right big can be beautiful - I would much rather have a women comfortable in her own skin than see the pain on my Sisters faces trying to lose weight - we have to die of something, personally would rather die of happy from choclate cake than old age. Like many Bishops and Stake Presidents have been known to say give me a ward/stake full of people with Word of Wisdom problems that love each other and treat each other right, than one that upholds the letter of the law but forgets the love. -Charley

We don't know that conclusively. Or I should say, I don't know that conclusively. My analogy to Christ being commanded to let himself be murdered was that Christ was more innocent than any child...yet God commanded it to be so. Why should Isaac be so special? The next event after the sacrfice was the death of Sarah at 127 (making Isaac 37), a sensible guess would be that Isaac would be in his 30s when the event took place (just a guess based on the story is that he was about 33). He would have to have been compliant - I struggle to dress my 9 month old, don't think I could bind him easily. Abraham was probably about 130 and had just travelled up a mountain -Charley

One element that people often miss is Isaac's faith in all this - he wasn't a small child, he was a young man and his Father was an old man, he had to let his Father do it, which is why it is a shadow of things to come the Son submitted to the Father. God has commanded people to kill and actually the priest that mentored Samuel suffered because he ignored the law and didn't kill his sons. It would not be Murder as that is an unlawful killing - I don't think I have enough faith, I'd be like the priest, but one thing my life has taught me is that there are much worse things in life than physical death. And that life is the Lord's to command so I guess it would depend at the time on circumstances, like the man that helped his daughter with ME(Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) to die I completely understand. Charley

Sorry, but I would have to disagree. The differences between the Divinity of Christ, and the "Doctrines" are eternal. Don't you think that one of our beliefs are true? Would not God want us to believe in that if that is what's true? Especially the Divinity of Christ, that above all is very very important, if ones opinion of the Divinity of Christ differs than what is true, than what a slap on the face to Christ that is to call Him what He's not, and say that He is, but He isn't! There's a matter of which Christ one worships. The one who is Living and true, or one that is a fable of men. The challenge then is to deeply consider all our faiths and discover if we are in line with what Christ spoke in His own words, and if we are not in contradiction, because believing in anything other than Christ's own words and the words spoken from Him through the apostles, is to call Him a liar and to becom an idolator for one would be forming a god in their own mind, which in the Old Covenant was punishable by death. How much worse would it be to call the very Son of God a liar because of misbelief. We all need to be very careful and descerning in what we believe. I don't think you even have to be Christian to know God - as far as I am concerned there is only one God, so whatever you call him is a little incidental. I have known Hindu's and even one atheist who have had Christ in their countenance. Remember the lady who Christ referred to as a Dog? she was pagan but recognised Christ without any teaching, those that had, many that had all the learning didn't recognise him Charley

tbh I think I have only ever received serious opposition in real life from my foster parents before I got baptised- they were baptists and they had had experiences with their daughter and Jehovah's Witness. And sadly my Mother - her problem is she it a bit of a control freak and the church is the one area of my life he has no control over and she doesn't understand. I think me standing upto her more would help, I just have a take it or leave it attitude to my faith will talk to anyone about it whether I am on a bus or a train. And have faced more curiousity than anything else Charley

Salvation is selfish by necessity. Think it is a Taoist principle that you always start with yourself and then you can achieve more for others. The clearest example is as a Mum - if I get up an hour earlier, I spend time alone with my God pray, meditate, maybe do some exercise, take a shower and get dressed, my kids get a much better Mum throughout the day, I then don't resent my Velcro Boy who needs to spend hours strapped to my back or sleeping next to me in bed, my daughter gets the attention she needs a 3 year olds whining becomes much less irritating and I can find fun ways of dealing with it instead of screaming lol. If I don't we can still be in PJs at midday and I am screaming and shouting, probably in more pain etc Same goes with my religious beliefs if I start with prayer, my own baptism, scripture reading etc I am going to be as Christlike as I am able to be at that point in my life. The Saviour talks about thejoy of us bringing just one soul back to him, personally Ithink that means to start by taking our own soul back. When it comes to my relationship with my God, the atonement ect it is very personal so yes I am selfish about that. As a result Idon't get disappointed the same with others. When it comes to Religion at least for me everything is Me, or I because its Mybeliefs. Personally I don't think you even need to be Christian to recognise Christ and start on the road to Salvation I answer that question by saying "No, I am not worthy but I am prepared." The Traveler I am very greatful to my Bishop lol as I am noqw able to say yes to that question with my head held high, I don't make the appointment until I know I can answer that question looking straight at my Branch President/Bishop/Stake President. When I enter the templeI now hear myself say very loudly and confidently in myhead Yes, I am worthy to behere, I am ready to learn lol Funny despite answering no to twoother questions on the interview have always got my recommend (I can't pretend Ialways treat my family with respect and no I am not always honest lol)it also changed my relationship with the Saviour, gave me even more confidence approaching him Charley

I'm a Ma lol - the big difference is for me there wasn't one moment of decision, I have had faith since I was at least 5, I have prayed and trusted that He would direct me to be fair not sure I have always known He was Christ just that God was there. At 6 I saw a picture of Christ being baptised and knew that was what I needed to do - spent 9 years searching for it, even looked at Hinduism, Judaism ect and ideally would have liked to have been Nun or a Minister. But he didn't let me go down that route - I didn't even convert when I met the missionaries, Heavenly Father had prepared me for them - I was annoyed they made me wait 3 weeks to get baptised. I have become a different person to when I was baptised but because I did what the Saviour wanted. I have a question isn't conversion progressive? I get converted every hour when I do things, yesterday I got to meditate amongst the trees in a very ancient wood, which is wonderful you feel everything bear witness of the Saviour. My son is lying sleeping on my husbands chest that converts me again as I look at them. Personally (and I appreciate people disagree) I think of Faith as a verb not a noun its a doing word - my Faith is organic, it grows and my relationship with the Lord gets stronger, baptism was essential because that is what the Saviour wants of me, the Gift of the Holy Ghost when I mentioned it I was thinking more about the way it sharpens those gut instincts that allow me to follow the Saviour more closely. Again yes the Temple has its ordinances but its those opportunities I get with it to grow that bit closer to the Saviour to become that bit stronger of a person. To me Faith means Christ directed works, putting yourself in His hands, growing to the potential He has for you (multiplying your talents like in the parable) and growing closer to Him. I love the Narnia books - in them when the children meet Aslan each time he seems bigger not because he has grown, Aslan stays the same, but because they have grown - that is my definition of Faith. The last question in the Temple Recommend interview asks are you worthy to enter the Temple - I had a Bishop who when I hummed and ahhed about the question told me to go away and pray about it decide what it ment to me, and come back when I could answer it with my head held high and a clear yes, So I did to me that question means have a grown closer to the Lord, am I better person than the last time I answered it. For me whilst the questions never change my understanding of the interview changes and the questions seem different its the same principle. - Charley (Charlotte)

Salvation for me begins on earth, its begins with the peace that comes when you accept that God is wiser than yourself and knows the way forward, I don't remember a moment of conversion.. For me in particular salvation was finding my baptism after a 10 year search and being able to move forward from that - the Gift of the Holy Ghost added a new angle to everything. I guess for me salvation is growth and the opportunity to reach my full potential with My Heavenly Father and my Saviour by my side Charley

I'm not American - I am about as British as you can be, my family history on all sides goes back to 1700 in either Britain or Ireland so far, but would like to point out American Idol technically is British lol Charley

This is why personally I don't understand where the Grace vs Works arguement comes in I guess - in order to obtain that Grace you have faith in Christ and as part of that you strive to be one with him and do your best. If you have that faith then you obey the commandments Charley

I just think if people who are willing to sin and not repent are allowed into heaven quite frankly it won't be very heavenly Charley

Put simply as Latter Day Saints we believe that when we die there is a tempoary seperation between body and spirit. When we die we got to Sprit Paradise which requires a knowledge of the Lord and the Gospel, or Spirit Prison until if/when we recieve the light or knowledge. I don't think we know much about the form Spirit Prison takes - Have you ever read the Chronicles of Narnia? I imagine it to be like the situation the Dwarves are in at the end of the Last Battle - they are really in heaven surrounded by beautiful things and are given the option to move further into heaven however they still think they are in a dark stable - when Aslan gives them a wonderful feast they think they are eating rotten turnips. This is different to Outer Darkness or the Celestial Kingdom, this is what occurs after the resurrection when our body and spirit are reunited for judgement. Charley

I am aware I may be reading the scriptures wrong. I guess I'm not so much trying to make you believe how I believe, I just want to spark thought and have you ask yourself why you believe what you do in light of what the scriptures say about the atonement. I think I know what you're saying, but how would we even know about Christ's suffering without the scriptural accounts? That's a rhetorical question, I'm not trying to argue with you. Even everlasting damnation won't last forever (except for the tenants of outer darkness). Read D&C 19 which explains that when God says "endless punishment" He doesn't mean "punishment without end." Funnily enough, I believe it's this very fact that unlocks the rest of D&C 19's meaning which is--as I said--the main scripture used to support the belief that Christ suffered the punishment for our sins in Gethsemane. I won't get into it here, though. I'm not interested in arguing with you or trying to cram a view down your throat. Will read it again and get back to you but it has never been my choice of scripture - I believed about Gethsemane before I was LDS and knew about the D&C - there was so much symbolism in the biblical passages about what passed there. Fair enough. Far be it from me to sour the feelings you have for Christ. I just wanted to let others know I don't buy into the Gethsemane-penal-substitution view, and wish I hadn't been taught it in primary and beyond as I find no basis for it in God's words. We both agree that Christ can bring us back to God, and for those of us on our way home, I guess that's the only pragmatic concern. That is enough but your intial questions were phrased in a manner that my view was wrong, which with something this personal can be difficult to listen to, it may not have been your intention. My view isn't wrong anymore than yours is - its my view. Charley

Yes, unfortunately...that is the truth...I am not sorry that I joined, though...but I did not even have a good idea of the reason for the baptism when I got baptised...I did not even know at that time that it was for remission of sins...I was still thinking like a Baptist when I got baptised...I learned later that I was washing my sins that day. LOL This made me think of my expeiernce thank you I often forget to look back to my baptism. I had the opposite experience I had to hound the missionaries to get baptised took me 3 weeks:) - you know I don't think many of us know what we are getting into when we step into the waters of baptism but I do know if I hadn't been baptised the day I was it may never have happened (long story involving parents) - I think our baptisms happen at the right time for us even if we wish it were different. Concerning church history I do think the church has to catch up with the times the information has always been relatively easy to get hold of, but it hasn't been taught either. I do agree some more openess may be more appropriate with the internet now making information more widely availible. But I think that is happeneing slowly the Moutain Meadow Massacre is being more openly discussed than it was when I was first baptised, I suspect other things will follow. Charley