pushka

Snow, I am not anti-semitic, and I doubt that Jason is too...I have for years argued the case of the Jews in Israel, except that recently I too have looked deeper into the issues...I'm going to reprint an article from the Internet, which looks at the Israeli/Palestinian issues from the veiwpoint of an Orthodox Jew, hope this helps! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does Israel belong to the Jews? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: April 26, 2002 1:00 a.m. Eastern © 2002 WorldNetDaily.com Ask a group of Christians why they support Israel's efforts against the Palestinians and you'll probably hear back that Jews hold the deed to the dirt. God gave it to them. This can be quickly verified by checking the Old Testament: "This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, 'I will give it to your offspring'" (Deut. 34:4). Numerous passages in Genesis and Exodus speak to the same thing. But this is not the whole story. "If you are not careful to do all the words of this law … you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it," warns Moses in Deuteronomy 28. "And the LORD will scatter you among all the peoples, from one end of the earth to the other. …" God was making covenant with Israel. Covenants are conditional. This is why they come with the promise of blessings and the warning of curses. If God's people faithfully obey his commands, they prosper. If they don't, God lowers the boom. "Before the Almighty gave us the Holy Land 3260 years ago, He made these conditions: If we abide by the Torah, it is ours, if not, we will be expelled," explains Orthodox Rabbi E. Schwartz of Neturei Karta. We know from Scripture that God's gift of the land to Abraham and his decedents was not unconditional. God threw them off the land a few times – not that God broke the promise. God never breaks a promise, but man certainly does renege on his end of the bargain. When that happens, hello Assyrians, hello Babylonians, hello Rome. Right here is where dispensationalists like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye point to Ezekiel 37 and the promise of a restored Israel, which they say happened in 1948 with the founding of the modern-day nation Israel: Sure the Jews were scattered by the Romans, but they've returned. They're back in the land. That's how we know it's the end times. Maybe. But we should ask ourselves something: If the Israelites were driven from the land by God for not keeping covenant with him, why are they back on the land now and still not keeping covenant with him? This is a perennial problem among Orthodox Jews. For them a political savior ignores the genuine cause of the exile and, thus, its genuine solution. God sent the Israelites eviction papers in the form of prophetic warnings about their sins and calls to repentance (e.g., Ezekiel and Jeremiah). Those papers aren't void until repentance comes. "Only through complete repentance will the Almighty alone, without any human intervention, redeem us from exile," says Schwartz, who quickly moves to condemn Zionism as the brainchild of atheists and denial of the covenantal understanding of the Diaspora. Many Christians are likewise clueless these days about the concept of covenant. Our ideas of "New Testament Christianity" have stripped our understanding of the vital doctrines of the Old Testament. As such, many Christians simply assume that modern-day Israel, despite its continued unbelief, is the restored Israel. This frequently leads Christians to uncritically accept whatever happens in the Holy Land by Israelis as OK, regardless of whether in particular instances Israel might be wildly in the wrong. By muddling our theology and foreign policy this way we approve of injustices as if they were permitted by heavenly warrant. Either that or we refuse to consider any evidence against Israeli actions as going against God himself. This is not an adequate response to the Jewish-Palestinian conflict. "There are biblical reasons for treating both sides with compassionate public justice in the same way that disputes should be settled between nations generally," says Baptist theologian John Piper. "In other words, the Bible does not teach us to be partial to Israel or to the Palestinians because either has a special divine status." Echoing Rabbi Schwartz, Piper notes, "a non-covenant-keeping people does not have a divine right to hold the land of promise. … Israel has no warrant to a present experience of divine privilege when she is not keeping covenant with God." As such, the Christian response should be to weigh judicially the claims of both sides to the land and actions to defend or take it and to continue to evangelize them both – salvation is as much for the Jew as the Palestinian. And we must not forget this last point. The Jews' final expulsion happened because they rejected the Messiah. Until they accept him, they are forever in exile. This is not an argument for pacifism or a wink at Palestinian aggression. Aggressors must be stopped, killed if necessary. But we must not quickly assume the righteousness of the Israelis simply because they are "God's chosen" and the evil of the Palestinians because they are not. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Special offer: Americans have been told for 200 years that drinking alcohol is sinful – but is it? "God Gave Wine" by Kenneth Gentry argues from Scripture that alcohol is a blessing from God and should be delighted in and enjoyed. Order the book today at GodGaveWine.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joel Miller is senior editor of Nelson Current and author of "Bad Trip: How the War Against Drugs is Destroying America." He blogs at RazorMouth.com. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=27395

So YOU don't buy into the Bible and BofM STUFF? LOL ← What do you mean by that snide remark, Please? Btw, I have enough friends/family connections to help me out when difficulties arise, who are also non-believers..it isn't just the LDS who prepare for disasters you know...others can do it without resorting to following the Bible or BofM. Btw, my non-believing friends do not happen to be evil either...

http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/...perminator.html Unfortunately this particular LDS guy took his mission to help couples get their 'own' children a little too far...it was thought that part of his reason for doing so was down to his LDS beliefs about the many blessings he could get for fathering more and more children...it is believed he has 75 children to the women who visited his clinic, as well as his own 4 in his family.

I still agree with SF, Shanstress and Bizabra regarding the people affected by the hurricane in N.O. SF described quite adequetly the difficulty in preparing for this kind of incident when your house is literally swept away from you, so making it impossible to keep/access whatever stocks you may have made already. It is easy to accuse people for not leaving N.O. before the hurricane struck...if there were warnings in advance, but again SF listed quite reasonable reasons why some people would be unable to do so...not enough income to afford transport or a car, and how to decide where to relocate to, and how to start a new life in a strange place with little time to prepare... I really do think you are still being a little too harsh Ray. Also, Please, I don't buy into the Bible BofM stuff, so I don't see any parallels between these natural disasters and the 'evil' of mankind in those places...that is just coincidence.

I'd just like to make it clear that someone, at least, is reading this thread and agrees with Snow's remarks...I do.

Well said, Winnie...although there will always be people willing to loot for selfish reasons, there are those who are in desperate need and it is very sad that they are left with this only option to survive in any sort of comfort/normality... Outshined, I wish you luck with your services in New Orleans...and good luck to anyone else who is offering their aid.

Lol, DisRuptive1...I'm dreading this Christmas due to financial difficulties...

Please, those are terrible things that happened to your cats, and I hope that the 'creep' got his just desserts eventually for causing such pain. I'm sorry but I just cannot agree with your thoughts/feelings as to why the recent Tsunami and Hurricane in New Orleans took place, however. I'm surprised that Snow hasn't joined in this discussion and pointed out about natural disasters occurring etc. Your views are soo outdated/medieval even...I feel sorry for all that suffered in these disasters, and you cannot blame 'righteous' people for choosing to live in a district that you think is evil.

I ticked Other because I was raised R.Catholic, attended LDS church for 5 years, and now don't practise any religion and am querying the existence of God and Jesus.

Well said Krischriechel...and welcome to the site, btw! Hope you enjoy it here...

M. Two words: Easy Rider. Although...............If I picture "evil" in long hair..... it would be Jack Nickleson! Aaaww...please stop picking on our Jack...I love him!!!

Winnie...in spite of your current financial problems, it is your ex who is losing out here...he's losing the love and respect of his children thanks to his silly behaviour. I do hope that on this occasion at least, he can come through and help you out...maybe something can ###### his conscience? If not, then try to put your negative thoughts away in a dark corner, and live your life as happily as you can without even considering him. You sound as if you have a lovely husband and family now, and that you are very grateful for that... I wish your son the best of luck at college!

I believe that all things are equal...humans and animals and the earth...they all deserve the same kind of respect and care from each other.I do not believe in any god or higher being. Whenever I do good, I do not do it because I am hoping to gain blessings, or go to heaven, In fact I don't do it for any special reason at all...I just prefer to do good than to do that which I consider evil...if I'm awarded by anybody's praise or money or anything else for anything I do, then this is a bonus... Hope that makes it clear where I stand.

I don't go for Doctrine, however if god exists and has some good attributes, then I'm all for being an example of the good.As for the rest: be gracious, love everyone as you love yourself, be kind to everyone, believe what you want to believe as long as it doesn't mean that you are going to hurt yourself or others, and again if god does exist...don't follow his example of killing tons of people whenever they don't worship you, or do as you say! LOL It is very easy to gain knowledge, and an understanding of it...but if you don't use that knowledge in a positive way, then it is wasted on you...

LOL, Winnie, I agree with you!

Great answer Ray! :)

LOL...thanks for the explanation Traveller! My apologies for assuming it was K. Anderson you were referring to...no offense intended to anyone!!!

Hiya Winnie, this is the link, from Ebay, from which I obtained my picture of the Jar Jar Binks Doll... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Life-size-Star-Wars-...1QQcmdZViewItem

But he's not even naked!!!!

Hehehe...the boards have certainly been 'inflamed' since K Anderson climbed upon the Mother ship!

Shanstress, I'm seeing my diabetes nurse tomorrow, and I'm dreading it! I tried a 'healthy' eating style some months back, with some success, but was put off by my dietician who said lots of things I was eating were no-no's, even tho I was losing weight!!! Dismayed I turned to comfort eating and regained all the weight. Just find a plan that suits you and your lifestyle...it's great that you can take the time to make homemade veg soup, as that should be very filling and full of nutrients! I was advised to eat wholemeal pasta, basmati rice, wholemeal bread...and my diabetic nurse said baked spuds were okay to, tho my dietician disagreed. I used to start the day with a bowl of Sultana Bran and 2 kiwis. At elevenses I ate 1 clementine, and at lunch I had a wholemeal sandwich with Quorn slices and some salad (I'm vegetarian too), and a banana or other 'filling' fruit. Later in the afternoon I had my 2nd clementine (2 kiwis = 1 portion of fruit, 2 clementines = 1 portion of fruit), and for my evening meal I made sure I had plenty of Quorn protein (either fillets, or quorn pieces in a low fat sauce, or other Quorn product) with a little of the basmati rice, or pasta and tons of veg. I was still okay to eat as much salad as I wanted in the evening, and a little fruit, but not too much due to the diabetes, and I lost lots of weight rapidly...I went to bed not feeling hungry, and drank diet drinks to stave off any sweet tooth cravings...now I've posted this, I ought to give the 'diet' a go again!!! Good luck to you, and I hope that we can 'inspire' each other! :)

I've been reading and re-reading Traveller's and the original post on this thread today, trying to figure out where Traveller is coming from in his reply... I hope that I am on the right track in assuming that he is not referring to SF's post as being 'this post', and is actually referring to K Anderson's post instead. That he is thinking that perhaps K Anderson may have become too proud of his own church attendance, and is therefore judging the others in the congregation, who he assumes will become complacent and stop attending church, due to their own pride...hope this is making sense, btw. So, Traveller, can you confirm that you think it is K Anderson who thinks he is not part of this problem of 'pride'? To me, there is a difference between being genuinely proud of something you or someone else has achieved, and being boastful and I think that is the difference that Traveller was also pointing out...

Thanks for your supportive post Snow...I will leave you to argue the 'facts' about scriptual references etc. as I know you are more able to do so than I am...good luck!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding K Anderson's post a little...maybe because I don't believe in The Bible as Scripture anymore, and so don't believe in his explanation about where black people come from (I thought it was something to do with geography...being born closer to the equator makes your skin darker to protect you from the sun's higher rays?), if I'm not misunderstanding it then I am very uncomfortable with his statements regarding the 'mixing' of the seed of Israel (whites -- or the seed of Ephraim) and the seed of Cain (blacks), which smacks too much of the teachings of the White Supremacy Groups that exist in the USA and unfortunately in other parts of the world too...I think someone in another post about this issue mentioned about other 'blacks' whose skin is much darker than that of African-Americans/Negroes, and wondered why they were not treated in the same way? (just in case I've misunderstood someone else's post too...I'm assuming that the people the poster was referring to were given Priesthood positions within the church? Please correct me if my memory is failing me and making me misrepresent someone else's arguments...sorry I can't remember the name of the poster, but it was in a post made this week).

SF, I was a little confused about Traveller's post too...but too cowardly to admit it...lol. I'm glad you were brave enough to ask him to explain it a little clearer? :)