pushka

Thank you Tick...I agree that I don't know what my atheist friends do every second of their days, however I can judge what I believe their values to be by the shared experiences we have had, the campaigns we have fought for together, which have not been to decriminalise marijuana or any other 'law breaking' campaigns, but campaigns for more justice in the world, better human and animal rights...that sort of stuff... I agree with you about the criminals who 'discover' Jesus in prison, I am very wary of their testimonies too...I can see that they try to use this newly acquired Christian status as a way to be released earlier...in some cases. However, I was asking you about the criminals who were Christians before they committed their crimes? How come they commit crimes too if you feel that only atheists commit crimes? Just doesn't add up. Yes, I have been fortunate enough to live a very 'safe' life, not having much experience of living amongst hardline criminals/drug users etc. I would never try to pretend that I had done so, in order justify my beliefs. I am sorry, but I just do not see my doubt of belief in Religion and my friends' atheist beliefs gradually turning us into criminals...

Hehehe...I'm enjoying reading this thread more now that Tao has deleted his replies...thanks Amillia for quoting them for me!!!! Tao, please stop deleting your posts...for my sake only :)

Awww...Tao...Don't go deleting your posts...what will there be left for me to read on here????

LOL Tao...I'm prayin' for ya!

LOL Snow!! Tick...I understand that a world in which nobody took responsibility for their actions would be a terrible place in which to live...however I can assure you that I have plenty of friends who are atheist, and they certainly are not criminals out to steal, murder, rape or otherwise. Why do you have to assume that it is only Christian people who are caring and considerate enough not to commit crimes? And please explain why some Christians are criminals?

Thank you for that very sensible response Casi...I agree with your sentiments entirely, and wish you and your family all the best for a great future...

lol Setheus...

Okay Begood2...I apologise for that...must admit I didn't write the original post on the other message board, just reprinted it here...tried to take out a little of the expletives too...to make it more acceptable.

Thanks for your opinion Amillia.

Well it didn't start out that way. But when evil was introduced, it changed things. Now we have to deal with it. And what I found sick was the made up slanderous antics attributed to sacred and sincere people. You mean wickedness caused people and animals to have to start eating each other in order to survive? Would you, therefore, recommend that all the world...animals included, start to become vegetarians, after repenting the sin of wanting to eat each other? Which 'made up, slanderous antics of sacred and sincere people' were you talking about? Have you proof that this is not the sort of thing that God and his angels do when they are observing us? Oh and please remember...it was a 'jokey' post, although I think it made one or two good examples of food for thought.

Why was it sick? Plenty of people here find it 'sick' that God could have created a predatory world, in which in order for 1 species to survive it has to kill and eat another species...the food chain?

I said at the beginning of the thread that it was from another website...http://www.bagism.com/ I'm just introducing topics of discussion here, which are being discussed there, to get another set of points of view...for comparison only, not to tease anybody or any other motive.

God's Instructions to Adam Posted by **Trashman** on Apr 30, 2005 at 10:56:56 AM: After the Fall, God call Adam into His presence and gave him the following instructions: “Adam, I’ve given you a truly marvelous brain. Why, you could use it to think all kinds of deep, philosophical thoughts. Only – now pay attention to this! – you’re not supposed to actually use it. In fact, that’s the whole point, not using it. “Don’t start asking me questions about this, you’re starting to use the damn (oh, sorry) …starting to use the darn thing already! Jesus Christ! Never mind, don’t worry about him yet, he won’t get involved for a couple of thousand years from now, so just forget it! Okay, where was I? Oh, yeah… “All you have to do is follow the rules I’m giving you. Don’t ask why, just do it! That will prove to me that you really love me, and when you die (yeah, you gotta die, otherwise this whole thing won’t work out right)…when you die, you can come and live with me in Disneyland. Well, no, you can’t come now; you have to prove yourself to me, that’s the deal. “If you start using that brain, wondering ‘why this’ and ‘why that’ and trying to figure me out – well, no sir, that won’t do at all. If that happens, well, I’m going to have to torture you for eternity – and that means forever, no end, non-stop! And boy, I made this angel named Satan (used to call him Lucifer), and he was my buddy until HE started thinking and, well, he’s real anxious to get some company down there and kick their a$$es. So I’m giving you fair warning!! DON’T USE THE BRAIN!!! “Besides, you’ve got it easy. After all, I’m talking directly to you. Shoot, by the time a few thousand years have passed, people will only have old scriptures, legends, and tall tales to remember me by. Why, they’re the ones who will have the hardest time not using their brains. But if they have faith in me and love me, and don’t use their brains and don’t get all confused, then they can come to Disneyland with us. But if they ask a lot of questions, that will really p*ss me off, and I’ll have to send them on down to Hell. Later on, my son (who is partly me…wait, never mind, I don’t want you to start thinking)…my son Jesus will be born on Earth and he’ll say a lot of neat things, but he’ll make a lot of people mad and they’ll kill him pretty brutally. It’s all your fault, you see. Ever since you fecked up and ate that apple, I just gotta have a super-duper blood sacrifice to even things out. Barbaric? – Are you thinking down there? “Don’t worry, Jesus will rise from the dead, but he can’t do it in such a convincing and stunning fashion that people won’t have to struggle with this think/faith dilemma. No, it will have to be obscure so nobody’s really sure, and then I can grade everyone on whether or not they believe it – with no thinking, of course! “Okay, Adam, now I’ve told you all about this brain business. Here’s the other part. I also gave you a penis. Yes, I can see that you’ve figured that part out already. And I’ve seen how you and Eve have been getting it on! No problem, only be sure that if you see another woman (I’m sure there’s some of them running around East of Eden or somewhere) and get, well, aroused, just be sure to keep your penis to yourself. Well, that’s not what I meant, I meant go see Eve to take care of it for you. I don’t care for that masturbation stuff, that’s a sin. “Don’t be so worried! I’m sure you’ll remember all the rules. Anyhow, the point I’m trying to make is this: “I’ve given you a marvelous body there, one that is very much like the bodies of the animals around here. And your body is going to crave different gratifications, stimulations, and satisfactions, whatever. Be sure to study and remember the long list of restrictions and rules on this papyrus scroll I’m giving you. I must admit I’ve designed your body so that you’ll be awfully tempted to break the rules, so you’ll have to be careful and vigilant. “If it helps you to keep to the rules, it’s okay with me if you want to make up more rules yourself, so that you can judge and imprison and torture other people. You could have lots of fun (once you and Eve have populated the planet). Now I know you’re wondering what you’re going to do with your time since you’re forbidden to think or satisfy your body’s cravings, so I’ve come up with two good ideas: work and prayer. Keep busy with those two things and you won’t have time to think or break any rules. Besides, I like being prayed to. It makes me feel really omnipotent, which I am! You go on, now. I’m going to lie here a while and listen to Satan and his buddies moaning down in Hell.” (Adam leaves. Michael the Archangel comes up, awaiting God's command)… “Hey, Michael. Bring me a mint julep, will ya? I know, I know – I could just create one myself, but I just love being waited on. And when you get back, sit down with me here…I want to watch those doofusses down on Earth try to get it right. This oughta be a real hoot!” This was mystically revealed to me. Don't you dare doubt it.

Just thought that this thread might interest one or two of you...sorry if it's 'old news'...just found it being debated over on www.bagism.com Jesus faked death; Christianity a hoax! Posted by **Rumor** on Apr 30, 2005 at 4:14:36 PM: *I dare all Christians to read this and to further read "The Passover Plot" by Hugh Schonfield...here's a synopsis of the book: The miracles and mysteries that serve to establish Christ's divinity in the church's official narrative are a plot--masterminded by Jesus himself--the purpose of which was to prove that this son of a Galilean carpenter was the Messiah whose coming had been predicted by certain Jewish sects since about a century and a half before his birth. Steeped from his youth in the religious ferment of his day, Jesus gradually becomes convinced that it was incumbent upon him to manifest his Messiahship by ensuring that his demise conformed to the prophesied pattern. To this end, Jesus minutely planned and orchestrated the events of Passion Week so they would culminate in his crucifixion on Friday afternoon. For the Passover Plot, timing is everything; delaying the Messiah's predicted ordeal until just before the Sabbath would enable Jesus to survive crucifixion by faking his death. The custom of removing the bodies of the crucified from their crosses before the Sabbath meant that Jesus' time on the cross would be minimized, allowing him to receive quickly the medical attention he would need. And by appearing to die on his own Jesus would be spared having his legs broken, the usual means by which the Romans hastened the deaths of crucifixion victims. Jesus' words "I am thirsty" were a signal to Joseph of Arimathea, who dispatched a servant with a vinegar-soaked sponge on the end of a twig of hyssop. But, there was more than just vinegar in this sponge. Had this liquid consisted of the normal wine vinegar diluted with water the effect would have been stimulating. In this case it was exactly the opposite. Jesus lapsed quickly into complete unconsciousness. His body sagged. His head lolled on his breast, and to all intents and purposes he was a dead man. He was drugged! Having created the illusion of premature death, Jesus is taken down from the cross and immediately laid in the tomb. Sometime on Saturday night, however, Jesus' confederates return to the tomb to carry out the entirely legitimate purpose of reviving him. The Roman soldier's lance thrust, however, had made Jesus' chances of recovery slender; after regaining consciousness temporarily, Jesus finally succumbed. It being much too risky, and perhaps too late, to take the body back to the tomb, replace the bandages left there, roll the stone across the entrance, and try to create the impression that everything was as it had been on Friday evening, Jesus' co-conspirators quickly and reverently interred the remains elsewhere, leaving the puzzle of the empty tomb. This enticing puzzle may accurately be seen as the real basis of Christianity, since from it the early church, by tying together a quilt of conflicting eyewitness accounts, bits of unrelated historic data wove its authoritative and authorizing narrative of Jesus' death and resurrection. If phase one of the Passover Plot was engineered by Jesus himself, phase two consists in the early church's "official" narrative of Christ's death and resurrection. Phase two ties together and tidies up the loose ends and unaccountable details left behind by Jesus' own, partially successful, conspiracy, producing, by about the third century, a myth capable of instituting a great world religion. But as that myth was reverently scrutinized, accumulating through the years a weighty interpretive tradition, its loose ends continued to turn up and demand explanation. As Christianity spread after about 300 C.E. to an increasingly educated and intellectually sophisticated populace (Rumor's note: NOT IN AMERICA), the need for a stable originary narrative--capable of withstanding the skepticism of friend and foe alike--became more urgent. Thus, the early church stabilized the myth of Jesus' life and worked first by obliterating any lingering traces of the Passover Plot, and finally by mining the Old Testament for every possible prophetic detail until the two parts of the Bible, taken together, constituted a seamless cosmological narrative. In the end this is just a story, carefully and tendentiously abstracted from a chaos of events related only by their having occurred in roughly the same region at about the same time.

Exactly Amillia and Begood2...I'm just starting out on the road to Volunteering...doing much on my PC rather than out on the streets at the moment, but we all have our bits to do, and mine involves spreading the word via the internet or by printing flyers/posters/newsletters and attending planning meetings for arranging events and so forth...

Thanks for the support Amillia...there's nothing better than helping others to make you feel good inside!

This might sound a little boring to you, and 'grown up', but you're never too young to start...volunteer to help out at some sort of centre for younger kids that might be mentally/physically challenged, help them with your creative ideas to produce art/videos/photographs etc. Extend their capacity beyond that which their parents/teachers think them capable of at the moment...I'm sure such community groups would welcome the ideas of other 'young' people and their help in making those ideas come alive.

Thank you Lindy and Tao...I must admit that I forgot to include that schools should also teach about the Hindu and Buddhist religions, as Tao suggested, comparatively to Christianity/Judaism/Muslim doctrine. I think in the UK, only guessing tho, that if you live in an area in which Christianity and Muslim are the dominant religions of the populace, those are the religions you are taught more about, comparatively...so, for instance, in Manchester where there is a large Jewish community, perhaps the children in Secular schools are taught to understand the Jewish religion and culture as well as Christian religion and so on...I do think that it is time that ALL religious doctrines/philosophies were taught, perhaps some of them might be better understood by teenagers, Tao? Buddhism etc.? than by primary age children, perhaps not...I might be undermining the intelligence of our younger pupils. On the issue of the Ten Commandments being in courtrooms, and the 'laws' of other religions being there too...I don't really have a clue! but I feel that it's time PD, that you left behind what originally inspired the 'founding fathers' of America to create their constitution/laws etc, and realised that the country is now multicultural and so should be reflective of all the cultures within it.

LOL Winnie...you know I love those little songs/rhymes for kids...in fact I love all things to do with kids...their movies and games etc. I agree with you though, it really is difficult trying to be the 'perfect parent' and must be fantastic when you're able to take a back seat with your own kids' kids, and just appreciate them and enjoy the time you spend together for it's own sake...

Hahaha Winnie! That is brilliant...thank you!!

Cats are not naturally house pets...hope you were joking btw! and at least they mostly make an attempt at covering up their stuff...

Here in the UK secular schools do allow pupils from differing religions to take time out for their prayers etc.

Snow, I can't help thinking that your attitude to this man and his problems is very harsh...I know that sometimes they say 'you gotta be cruel to be kind', but I must ask what were his doctors doing to try to help wean him off his medication before it got to the stage of addiction? My daughter had major surgery on her right leg in 2003, she had to be treated with morphine, then codeine plus other drugs to help her sleep because the pain was so bad...it would have been very easy for her to become addicted, however her doctors carefully monitored her levels of pain and reduced her prescription drugs accordingly... It is very easy to judge addicts once they are addicted, but imagine the amount of pain he must have been suffering in order to become addicted? Remember that he was initially taking the pills to try to work in spite of his pain...it must have been terrible when his wife left him, with the children...although obviously we don't know the full details of how his addiction affected their lives together, and this added burden to his life must have contributed to his overall state of mind, lack of ability to control his 'need', and sustain a normal working life. I feel very sorry for your friend Strawberry...and if God is worth anything I think he will take all of the circumstances into consideration before judging him as harshly as some on this site have done.

Eeek, McKay...you make some rather good points...though I'm sure there are some people here who will delight in re-interpreting those scriptures (not me, I don't read the Bible anymore).

LOL Apple...I agree with you entirely...and yes, it is strange how our dad's suddenly show their 'softer' nature when grandkids come along...it's cute!