Traveler

I enjoy our conversation and I am sorry that I do not have more time to discuss the relationship of science and religion. Personally I see religion as a kind of science and I agree with you that the science of religion has been greatly abused and misunderstood. In the past I have posted that one of the great abuses of religion is the focus on self. I believe that this is very much a “ME” generation and time. Often we are encouraged to find a religion that fits with the “ME” agenda. Even salvation and being saved is defined by the gratification of the “ME” quest. In science there is no “ME”. From my previous analogy of light and faith in a light coming on by operating the switch we learn that the light works for anyone operating the switch – regardless of their professed faith. The correspondence in religion is that those that seek shall find. In the LDS religion we ask people to pray concerning truth. I am not one that adheres to the “G-d answer by feeling” concept. Personally I like the concept of a journey. We do not drive car, waiting at the end of a street waiting for all the lights to turn green. We begin by driving to the first light. If the light is red we stop at the light and wait for the light to turn green. Each stage of our journey we take the first stage by studying maps, directions and our memory. Then we begin our journey. We look for indications (signs) as we travel to assist us. Sometimes we may even find the signs misleading. Sometimes we need to ask directions. Sometimes we just do the best we can and hope (have faith) it turns out. I am not sure what you are looking for in your prayers. The idea that an angel will appear and explain things or that you will find a burning bush from which you will be told things is what I believe is doubtful. What I have found is that your thought process will evolve and you will have ideas and thoughts different to what you have had in the past. For example: while reading the Book of Mormon you will find inspiring thoughts giving enlightenment. Now you may think that you would have had the same thoughts had you not been reading the Book of Mormon. So keep a record or a journal and see if there is any difference. In the meantime – I wish you well in your quest for truth. I do believe in such endeavors you will find many similarities with others (like myself) that are seeking. For me – I am not seeking heaven as a destination but as a means of travel. The Traveler

Again I wish I had more time to converse with you. There is both false faith and false religion just like there are false assumptions in science. For example are dinosaurs warm blooded or cold blooded. Today most scientists will agree that they are warm blooded – 50 years ago most agreed that they were cold blooded. The problem is that many tend to have faith in “expert” opinion. Few of us have the time and resources to “check out” or validate everything that is being said. Since you are a scientist you will understand the following – I think. It is a template for understanding how G-d deals with man. G-d will not do for man what man is capable of doing for himself.G-d will do for man what man is not capable of doing for himself.G-d will not do for man that which does not benefit man in the long (eternal) term.G-d will do for man that which will benefit man in the long (eternal) term.G-d will not do anything for man with out the concurrence of that man.If you consider the LDS concept that man is the offspring of G-d and that we are undergoing advanced training for define status some thing about life can make sense. For example, we are having a temporary experience. However: The experience is real (not pretend) the opportunities are real (not pretend). The consequences are real (not pretend). As far as becoming enlightened – I have not found a better “path” to travel than what is offered in the LDS “faith”. If I could find something better; I would accept it in a heart beat. If you have found better opportunity to participate in enlightening activities please point me. To be involved in community, serve in calling, experience love and compassion service. Consider the missionary program, you earn your own money and pay for your service. Welfare where all fast and offer what they save to the poor – and all regardless of what they have can participate with the same expectations and commitment to service – rich or poor. To take upon covenants – again all can help one another without attending special seminaries, or colleges to obtain degrees. One serving is not considered greater than another or deserving of greater reward. I could go on but I will ask you if you know of a better way to enlighten a society? The Traveler

The veil will remain until the time of probation is over The Traveler

Thank you for responding. Back to the light and switch analogy. The point is that without knowledge of how the causes and effects apply to produce light by what ever means – people make assumptions. When you make an assumption that is another way of exercising faith. As a scientist I can vouch for fact that despite how often something seems to work; if the principles are not understood there is no scientific reason to make assumptions that trends will continue. There are only two means by which a person can act. One is by knowledge the other by assumption or faith. All that faith is – is the propensity to act without knowledge and make assumptions based on trends. It is possible that people act in misguided faith – gambling is a good example of this. Anyone that understands statistics will not “gamble”, unless they act foolishly with misguided assumptions and faith. Prayer is interesting to me. I find it odd that so many people pray without realizing they are approaching the most brilliant and intelligent mind in the universe, yet they would advise him on how to run things and answer according to their view of things. Yes, I agree that many people answer their own prayers or they un-answer their own prayers. What G-d is doing is allowing those that would learn from him to become enlightened. Contrary to popular opinion enlightenment is not the ability to spout doctrine, it is the means to become loving and compassionate – when loving and compassion are not logical. I used the fact that you love your wife to make more than a logical point. If you only love when it is logical then those that you think you love will not have faith in you or your love. The Traveler

I think you have some good points. It appears to me that there are not enough buckets defining Christianity during the 1st Century. Gnostic Christianity is not necessarily Jewish although documents among the Dead Sea Scrolls (that are labeled Essen) greatly resemble documents of early Christianity that have been labeled Gnostic. It is my belief that precious and sacred documents that have been discovered are labeled Essen and Gnostic in order that the obvious shift in scripture use, doctrine and other things relating to the evolving church moving toward apostasy can be covered up. Even less publicized is that fact that the settlement by the Dead Sea we call Qumran today is not the ancient name. Qumran is Arabic. The ancient name of the settlement was Damascus. What is interesting to me is the cycle this thread is moving in. Paul was converted on his way to Damascus. A close look into the Biblical accounts gives strong support that Paul was converted on his way to the Dead Sea settlement and then studied the scriptures there – which by the way have strong relationship to documents labeled Gnostic. It was not Paul that differed from Peter, James and John as much as it is the interpretations that follow. Because Paul has a more gentle view of gospel principles his attempts to explain the teaching of Christ in an non-Jewish setting are often interpreted with too much liberty – especially in view of the Hellenistic influences of the time that were opposed by Paul as well as Peter, James and John. It is the Hellenistic influences (such as a need for a cannon and defining G-d in non-Biblical terms like Trinity) that took hold of Christianity and marched off in a different direction. The Traveler

As a scientist (math and physics background) and a person deeply devout in the LDS faith – I find you question most interesting. I will define faith first from my scientific background. Faith is the engine to pursue an idea one believes but lacks empirical evidence. Let me give you an example. It should not take a great deal of study to realize that the model taught in most high school and college classes concerning electrons lacks both detail and accuracy. Yet by faith most will turn on a light and expect it to operate. Even if the light does not come on few doubt that it is because the concept is wrong. Why then would someone with a scientific background expect that non empirical things (spiritual) are to only be measured by empirical methods? Again let us consider an example. Do you love your wife? If you do how can you quantify (by scientific method) your love? In order to experience love and loving; one must take a leap of faith. Such faith causes one to be kind even though such kindness creates vulnerability – which is anything but logical. Such effort is faith. To know G-d one must have faith to become vulnerable and loving not just G-d but accepting his love towards us. Faith in G-d therefore becomes faith of what is possible. Now I would like to take faith a different direction and ask the question – what is real? Most of us think we can look around us and see and touch that which is real. Such reality is really illusion because the dimension of such experience is temporal. 20 billion years ago what you think is real did not exist and if our understanding of temporal effects is any indication in several trillion years none of what is claimed to be real will still exist. Why then do you have faith and believe in that which is not real? What then is there that is worthy to believe? What can last? Only that which is eternal – but that reality cannot be measured with temporal means. Is love something that is not temporal? If you cannot distinguish that which is light from that which is dark – no one will ever be able to help you understand what is day and what is night. The Traveler

According the LDS doctrine, for example the Book of Mormon, scriptures can be “abridged” from the original. We also know from the Book of Mormon that the official or if you will “canon” or temple scripture of the Jewish people was removed from the Holy of Holies of the temple just prior to the era of captivity and lost to a person named Nephi. There is evidence from the ancient “Damascus” near the Dead Sea, where in our time the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, that anciently there were classes or levels of the scripture scrolls. That the highest valued copy was kept at the temple and that special copies were made by select scribes that were then used at scriptoriums where copies of the scriptures were made by various levels of scribes for various levels of the public. If this is the case then the only scriptorium level document ever found is the Isaiah scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The main difference within the LDS covenant is that we do not rely on past scriptures for authority but instead follow the ancient covenant type where prophets are G-d’s Suzerain Vassal and as such are both proctor and divine representatives of sacred covenants as was Moses, Abraham, Isaiah and other prophets that wrote the original scriptures. The Traveler

Most all modern socialist orders have denounced religion. Fundamentally communism opposes all religion as an opiate of the people. Please do not disgrace the United Order by a comparison to socialist orders that are anti to religion. I would also point out that the LDS welfare, fast offering and consecration is not free market capitalist economy. Neither is the United Order. My great grandfather was secretary (CEO) of the Box Elder United Order and I am well studied in the articles and principles of that specific order. Please understand that it is the order of G-d to have his children come into his “Kingdom” and social order as a manner of agency and expression of free will. It is the order of Satan to demand by force of law that man should be forced and taxed with no escape or relief from taxation. I personally see the redistribution of wealth under the current taxes in this country as it stands today to be more closely associated with the order of Satan than of G-d. And as long as the laws demand disassociation with all that is religious from the halls of justice – I believe that nothing but loss of freedoms will result. When we are not free to choose we are not free and if the majority is not the basis of order there is no democratic or free society. The Traveler

It is very common to call things in new places people go by the old places names - like New YorkThe Traveler

I have traveled the world over and have loved and enjoyed attending church – including Gospel Doctrine everywhere I have been. I though it might be fun to share one rather interesting experience. During my first visit to Taiwan I wanted to have a special experience. My company had provided a translator but only when I was at work. The rest of the time I was on my own. Attending church is a high priority for me. During the week I had taken more than one occasion to fast and pray concerning my Sabbath experience. I was expecting to have the spiritual gift of interpretation of tongues. My first experience being immersed in the Chinese language was a most difficult one. I could not recognize any sounds – even the sacrament prayers left we confused with where in the prayer we were. When I went to Gospel Doctrine I was sure that everything would come to me and I would start understanding. I can honestly say that I did not understand one single word said by anyone. There were some pictures I recognized but nothing I could understand. I felt that the gift of tongues was not something for me this Sabbath. After Gospel Doctrine the teacher took time to come over and talk to me in broken English. He asked me how I enjoyed the class. I told him I must be honest and admit I did not understand even one word. I asked him what the lesson was for that week. He responded, “The gift of tongues”. We will be taught great lessons in Gospel Doctrine – but they may not come to us in the manner we expect. The Traveler

Forgive and forget. We are open to anyone that would harm us - not just those we have experienced ill treatment. The Holy Spirit guides us and keeps us safe - not the remembering of what others have done to us in the past. If it is a spirit of anger that has convinced someone to end a relationship, I doubt that there is forgiveness. On the other hand if the Holy Spirit indicates that it is time to forgive and move on when there is no effort to harm the other or take away any good thing that is a benefit to them then forgiveness has likely taken place as G-d would have it. The Traveler The Traveler

I think that there is much more to the influence of spirits than many realize. But there are two kinds of spirits and often unclean spirits will present themselves as spirits of light. Telling the difference is not that difficult. If we have made place for clean spirits in our lives, unclean spirits have difficulty presenting themselves as clean. If we have allowed place for unclean spirits then there are limitless possibilities - almost none of which are enjoyable (even if the spirit is clean - example: Alma the younger). It has been my experience that if someone is encouraged to talk, without reservation, to others about the spirit that is influencing them - usually it is not a clean spirit that is guiding them. The Traveler

No. There is no connection between what is on a ballot and how the voter is registered. But writting on a ballot can disqualify it. For example, writting in Mickey Mouse for president will likely disqualify your ballot. Sometimes writting in any cantidate can be judged (by the polling judges - which are almost always party faithful) and an invalid ballot. This is especially true if someone writes in somethng like a county or state judge because any cantidate must be pre-qualified.The game that is often played dependes on all kinds of demographics. For example - in heavy Republican districts, Deomcrats will try to disqualify as much as they can. Ususally the Republican respond in kind in strong Democratic districts. Remember Florida and who wanted what disqualified and recounted and in what districts they wanted it done. The Traveler

There are strong connections with the spirit that is in your home and about your person and the language that one uses. I know that many people see such things a funny but I am not sure they understand the danger. I support and honor all that work towards making their home a place where the holy spirit of G-d is welcome. The Traveler

I believe that everyone will end up in the place they really really want to live eternally. I do not believe that G-d will deny heaven for someone that would rather be there than any where else. I also do not believe there is a hell that a loveing G-d would damn anyone to if they did not perfer that place over heaven. I also believe that many so called Christians will, once they see heaven will be saddened by it and desire a place more suited to their wants and desires. Many feel we should all find a "church" that suits us. I am quite sure that such reflections on G-d and such will roll over with us in eternity. One last point. Most seem to think heaven and salvation is all about them - Them being saved - Them being forgiven, Them not having to suffer, Them getting what them wants for free or other wise - in other words a ME ME ME ME ME and what I get for ME ME ME. I think such have missed the most important part of what it means to be a Christian. If you think you are a Christian or LDS or whatever and you think salvation is about you being born again and you being saved - you do not understand. The Traveler

Be careful what you do with you ballot so that it is not disqualified. This may come as a surprise but party faithful (both parties) - that often watch and judge at polling places love to disqualify ballots - it is not about what the majority wants - it is all about party politics and control evel at all levels even the local level. Which is one reason to belong to and vote party and not person.The Traveler

There have been some very good posts. Some notes from my travels. Many wards have pot luck after regular Sunday meetings. It is a common practice in Taiwan. I tried to bring some unique American food all the way from America. I brought a case of beef jerky. The members did not like it much – they prefer squid jerky over beef which will cause most Americans to pass out. But the missionaries loved the beef jerky and ate it all. Sustaining is a very important part of ward conference – which includes general, stake and ward callings. I have been present when there have been hands contrary and in the case in point the person was released after interviews with those that objected. No other information was given – but sustaining should be taken seriously. It is also a time for teaching, training and feedback both from the stake to the ward and the ward to the stake. The Traveler

I did not get to respoond to another thread before it was closed - so hear you have it. I do not think that in the society of G-d (in heaven) that there has ever been or ever will be a two party system. I am not a believer (any more) in political parties. It is my personal belief and experience that parties tend to represent the party powerful and not the people. I find it interesting that “Christians” have tended towards governments more closely associated with Pagans (even in their religious organizations) than with the “ancient” Christian (Biblical) understanding of Kingdoms and Suzerain – servant vassals. I do not tend to get involved in national politics – ever since Nixon – I have not felt that one can determine a better candidate from another when it comes to national politics and parties. And this comes from someone that served for two years as the state legislative chairman for the parent – teacher – student association in the state of Washington. I do vote and I will enter a national candidate on my ballot so that it will not be disqualified for the local election that I do believe still; has some resemblance of representation to the people. I am sure this will end up closed - too bad - so sad. The Traveler

Forgiveness is closely linked to repentance. Part of forgiveness is the understanding through the spirit that the Christ has made “redemption” for all sins and thus we can be free from any ill affects of other’s sins. Perhaps the best example of forgiveness (as pointed out in President Faust’s April conference talk) was the Amish families that lost daughters in a brutal murder – yet reached out to the family of their murder to assist in their spiritual healing. If anyone has difficulty forgiving someone that has wronged them or someone they love – Jesus pointed out that such a un-forgiver cannot themselves be forgiven by G-d. President Spencer W. Kimball pointed out that regardless of the trespass it is the greater sin not to forgive. The last point concerning forgiveness – you can know you have forgiven someone when you finely are able to realize within yourself that you do not wish harm (or even spiritual condemnation) against those that trespassed against you. It is a matter of whose side you are on. Satan is the accuser of all and Jesus Christ is the advocate. The Traveler

And you know of another? I have read many books - for example "The Richest Man in Babylon”. The author talks about “investing” and letting your money “work” for you. Oh really? Money does not “work” but it does entice others to work. It is a very common practice of the rich to exploit those that “work for them” and pay them only a part of what their work produced – even to the point where they keep the bigger share for themselves. Sometimes making the excuse that they take a bigger risk. It is sad my friend – but the rich will not only profit from another man’s labor but they are so filled with pride that they think they deserve it. I will give another very interesting example. Have you ever noticed that someone that works in a garden and grows much of their own food – will rejoice over the abundance of their garden and take zucchini and other items they produced by their labor to their neighbors? But not a person that extracts wealth from those around them. They are so afraid of loosing their wealth because they know they cannot earn it on their own that they hoard such abundance and resent that someone in greater need might have the mind to take for them as they have taken from others. So tell me – my wise friend – tell me what I cannot see for myself. What manner of wealth is there that does not rely on the efforts of others; directly or indirectly for such wealth? The Traveler

I guess you have never heard of a slum lord? In our society there are no rich that have not accumlated their wealth from the labor of some one else. Who did Bill Gates "rob" from? How about a small (poor) company in Oregon that created "stacker" software? The Traveler

I do not disagree with you entirely. There is a little book called “The Law” written by Frederic Bastiat that purports your notion of legal plunder. It is one of my favorite books on defining good law. One thing we all should have learned from economics 101 is that nothing is free – somebody pays for everything. The other thing we should have learned is that the rich pay for precious little; that is why they are rich. On the other hand the poor pay for a great deal; that is in part of why they are poor. Part of the problem is that we need a bridge to get us from where we are currently to a position of a more ideal economy – if such a thing is possible. In your economic example every dollar the poor receive must come from the wealthier and every one of those dollars is for ever lost. That may not be entirely true. I believe there are many examples contrary to this model. But let us think instead in terms of cooperative investments in a human trust. If a community pools resources for fire protection the cost of savings is enormous; compared to each property owner responsible for their own. The concept of collective sharing needs and responsibilities is the very engine of community and society. However, if there is to be any community or society there must be rules established for the sharing of needs and responsibilities. I submit that the best way to establish such rules is by the “power” of the majority. I do not say that it is the perfect way or always the best way but that it is overall the best that I have been able to determine. It would appear to me that you believe that if you have the power that you should exercise that power for your benefit and your wants and desires. And just so you know – I oppose such methods of social engineering. The Traveler

My friend a-train: There are some things you should be aware of. The first is that Iran is not an Arabic country. Iran is a Persian country. The native language of Iran is not Arabic. There is no animosity among most Arabs concerning our western policies towards Iran – in fact there has been far grater barbarism given to Iran from Arabic countries than by any Western Country and this includes all the problems with the Shaw. Even during the Hajj there are divisions and factions in Islam that are against Iran being allowed to speak – something afforded to Moslems of even western countries. If you listen carefully some factions want to kill anyone that lives within Islamic territory that is not Islamic. We are hated more for freedom of religion than for what you call barbarism. Do you know what is done under Islamic law to those that convert to another religion and those that converted them? Are you aware that LDS missionaries are not allowed to proselyte a Moslem? Now when you are talking about human rights are you talking about nearly beating a woman to death for being raped? Are you talking about women not being allowed to drive a car, vote or attend college? Are you talking about freedom of religion? Are you talking about human rights to listen to the music of your choice? Are you talking about the execution of males that perform “female” homosexual roles and the men performing the “male” role in the relationship are of no concern. Do you remember when the Prime Minister of Iran said there are no homosexuals in Iran? Do you know why he said that? Now I want a straight answer. You talk about bad policies and you have not touched on any of the very bad policies our government has been involved with. Instead you are talking about corporate and business policies (oil) in the Middle East. What have US business done in the Middle East that is worse than what the same business have done here in the USA? Yet in other places on this forum you post that government should stay out of the way of business. Do we need less or more regulation of business to include government oversight of your paycheck? So tell me straight – Should government regulate how businesses do business – or just business debt? Should there be more regulation or less? The Traveler

How can there be investment on one side and not debt on the other? What is the difference between “return” on investment and interest? Can you point out to me any major private business venture of the 19th century that had the best interest of their workers in mind? Do you know why there was blood shed in forming unions? Should government require proper labeling? It was not required in the 19th century. Should government prevent addictive drugs like coke from being put into drinks and sold as safe and helpful (healthy) to the public – Do you know what business but in Coke during the 19th Century? The Traveler

Thank you for your post - and I agree The Traveler