Traveler

Do people here believe that it's okay for agitators to misrepresent history and facts in order to grind away at their personal axe? I am a current Mormon and I believe it's wrong to lie by implication.

I have often thought that family home evening was often a family feud (argument and fight) that is opened and concluded with prayer.
Maybe we should employ this method with some discussions on this forum.
 
The Traveler

I am sure there is a perfectly really nice warm place for you all in the next life!  Sorry I could not resist the temptation. 
I was working in Phoenix a few years back when the temperature reached 120.   I posted a cartoon at my desk showing two devils talking in a cave with flowing lava.  One said to the other, “It is hotter than Phoenix down here.”
 
Traveler

The thing that scares me the most is the scripture that says the righteous need not fear.
 
The Traveler

I have found tidbits of possibilities in many places.  While serving as a missionary in the Northwestern States Mission – like 50  years ago – I had a native American companion.  Long story short, he introduced me a great deal of history I would not otherwise of known.  According to ancient legend in the North West a bearded white G-d came down from the sky with many good gifts.  The native population asked him his name and he told them something they could not pronounce – but it was said to have sounded something like Yasheiah.   Since they could not pronounce his name – he was called Tacoma.   The same as the 3rd largest city in Washington.  The name they could not pronounce correctly, does seem much like the ancient Hebrew of Josiah – the prophet that followed Moses.  This is also the ancient Hebrew name that translated from the Greek is Jesus.
These little tidbits can be both interesting and inspiring but I have learned not to get excited or pronounce a particular idea I believe as true unless there is empirical evidence that directly backs up a belief – regardless of how strongly I hold it to be true.  The one exception to this a direct manifestation by the power of the Holy Ghost – neither of which I have encountered as to Book of Mormon geography in the Americas. 
There are many ancient civilizations in the Americas that we know of only through ruins that fascinate me and that I enjoy studying.  Among such ruins I believe there are evidences of Ancient Chinese, Buddhists, Crete, Phoenicians, Egypt, Vikings and even ancient Arabians (think Sinbad) – and of course the ancient Hebrews or house of Israel.   I speculate that historians may be more accurate than some LDS are willing to consider – and that there were many civilizations in the Americas not mentioned or referenced in the Book of Mormon.  I tend to believe that the ancient prophesies are true – that the Great Apostasy was as global as the ancient flood of Noah and that Israel fell and its laws, ordinances and covenants were completely lost.  That what little remained are faint references to “doctrines” scattered with its peoples throughout the gentile nations of the world – not excepting and including the gentile nations of the Americas.  I do not know of any ruin or any ancient language or people or even artifact – that we can conclusively say these are left to us of Israel – specifically the uncorrupted blood and decedents of the Lehi.
One last point – I do believe that someday an artifact will be found that empirically proves Lehi and his decedents did occupy geography in ancient America – but I have considered the possibility that when such evidence is found – that it will make little or no difference either inside or outside the communities and cultures of the Latter-day Saints.
 
The Traveler

I am sure there is a perfectly really nice warm place for you all in the next life!  Sorry I could not resist the temptation. 
I was working in Phoenix a few years back when the temperature reached 120.   I posted a cartoon at my desk showing two devils talking in a cave with flowing lava.  One said to the other, “It is hotter than Phoenix down here.”
 
Traveler

It can be a little tricky down a long 8% with  couple curves.  Basically just trying to stay under 40mph until I could see the rest of the descent.  Going up varies by the hill, though.  Sometimes it's just easier to get off and walk.

I once took our 14 to 18 year old young men on a one week 500 mile bicycle trip – with swag wagon (trailer) so they only had to peddle themselves.  We trained for 6 months but only one young man made it without resting through some segments on the swag.  Some of my young men were active in sports and thought they were already in top shape – They did not make it through the first day without resting with the swag.
I have never done the hybrid pack it thing – that must be scary off the charts on a 10% decline and a real bummer up hill into a strong wind.
BTW I ride a black, red and white Trek Madone that is worth more than my car.
 
The Traveler

This is so true!  There's such a big difference between the discipline of a coach than a teacher/professor.  I find it weird moving to the US and seeing how they run their competitive soccer leagues.  That's for sure not the way to qualify for World Cup.  They spend like 30 minutes on drills and then they play a tournament.  There's no way!
True coaching is you start from the basic building block - you train in that until you get very very proficient at it.  Then you go on to the next building block.  You add more skills as you get more proficient until eventually you get all the skills to play the sport as as a team.  So... you could spend 5 years doing nothing but footwork and ball handling before you get good enough to join the team and play a tournament.
Like - why are there so many Olympic-level Romanian gymnasts?  Because Romanian gymnastic coaches teach line-upon-line precept-upon-precept building on the elements of gymnastics until proficiency is achieved before they get sent to competition.  They could be "playing gymnastics" for 10 years before they get good enough to be given the option of joining competitive gymnastics.  This is the same with Russian ballet/dance or Serbian tennis.  They don't just shove you into competition when you have zero skills.

Ours did 120 miles in 3 days.  Florida... so... flat riding.  Unfortunately, it rained all 3 days so they rode in it.  My boy is in really great shape (competitive jiujitsu fighter) but he was one of the boys struggling to finish.  Cycling takes different muscles than jiujitsu.  What got him through was just plain grit and a refusal to give up.  Just like jiujitsu - it was not a competition between him and the other cyclists.  Rather, he was in a competition against himself.  That's what jiujitsu is - the other guy is just the road/rain/wind.  Who you're competing with is - yourself.

I am not a professional historian – but history is a hobby of mine.  I am convinced that ancient populations were not as isolated as many of us think.   I believe there is a great deal of evidence that ancients from Asia, the Mediterranean areas, Northern Europe and even the areas surrounding the Arabian Sea knew of and navigated the waterways to the Americas.
One ancient group I find most interesting were the Phoenicians (believe so named for their purple sails).  The ancient King of Phoenicia (Hiram) gifted King David with a fleet of 300 ships.  We know from Biblical accounts that these ships were sailing around Africa from the South Atlantic to the Indian Ocean and trading with India.  We have a good record of the European mariners that by the time they developed the knowledge and technology to navigate this route – within 40 years they accidently ended up in South America.   Most likely it was this knowledge and technology of the Phoenicians used by the Mulekites to reach and settle the Americas.  It is interesting to me that the major river by which the Mulekites established their capital bears the same name as the ancient capital of Phoenicia. 
If one considers the trade winds and ocean currents we can establish with relative accuracy where the most likely initial landings of the Jaredites, Nephites and Mulekites.   Never-the-less, without conclusive empirical evidence and relying strictly on subjective opinion; I believe we do more harm than good in declaring we know something that we don’t.   Doing so becomes more a tool of contention and bitterness than enlightenment and truth.
 
The Traveler

It is interesting how we define things.  Long ago when I was young and thought competition was important – it was not team sports.  When we divided up to play I was the last chosen.  I am living proof that being a winner in the popular team sports are not necessary to be happy in life.
I have competed in non-team sports.  Cycling and skiing.  I do have a bronze medal for both – competing oh so long ago, as an amateur.   I was given an opportunity to try out for the US Olympic ski team but decided to do other things with my life.  But I have learned some things from my experiences.
 There is a reason Norway is good at winter sports.  It is the same reason that during my limited competition skiing I was never beaten by someone that grew up in Florida loving the ocean.  This may come as a shock to some – but Norway and Utah have never produced an Olympic swimmer or any importance.   I honestly do not think it is because of the ribbons or trophies given out in those sports.  Grief, I do believe reporters now days will make an issue out of anything – regardless of facts or what they know of it.
Another thing I have learned about life is that there is a world of difference between a coach and a teacher or professor.   For those of you that do not know – a coach is invested in their student.  The goal of a coach is not a grade – it is to prepare you to win at competition.  Some people will never realize the difference.  I could provide thousands of examples but I will use just one.  When I was a scout master – I believed that when we went to district campouts that we should win the competitions.  So, I prepared my scouts to win.  Our best event was fire building.  The rules required that the scouts build a fire without matches and then build the fire to burn a string 2 feet off the ground.   I designed a giant bow and stick that required 6 scouts working together.  But they could start a fire and burn the string in 15 seconds.  Our closest competition ever was just under 3 minutes.   We always won and my scouts loved it – so did most other scout troops.  And the boys loved showing other scouts how to quickly build a fire.  But there were some scout troops that complained and demanded our boys be disqualified.   What I do not understand is that no one else ever build a giant bow and stick to compete with us.  I guess they had their way of doing things and anything outside their concept was unacceptable. 
There is a bicycle event called the Lotoja.  It is about 225-mile race from Logan Utah to Jackson Hole Wyoming.  It is not just a distance race but a few mountain summits to climb.   The fastest up one particular Mountain receives “The King of the Mountain” award which is as prestigious as winning the race – no one has ever won both.   This is one event that everyone that finishes within the 16-hour limit gets an award.  No one complains about this award because a lot of individuals that start are never able to finish.  I have used the Lotoja as an example of enduring to the end.  No one decides the day of to run this race will finish without training for it.  Part of training is preparation and part of preparation is training for the distance.  It is not just a matter of not giving up.  It is being in shape to ride the 225 miles.  It is knowing how to and training yourself to eat properly.  It is more than just knowing how to ride a bicycle.  It is being prepared both mentally and physically for the distance.
 
The Traveler

So bike touring 1300 miles to the starting line and deciding that morning whether I feel like trying it on a loaded touring hybrid is probably not a recipe for success?

There might have been far larger civilizations in the Americas that simply were not mentioned in the Book of Mormon narrative.
As far as the time period goes, we know only that the Jaredite nation lasted from sometime after the linguistic confusion at the tower of Babel until between about 200-600 BC. Since we don't know the date of the events at the tower of Babel, any attempt to assign a timespan to the Jaredite nation is largely conjecture. The Book of Mormon lists about thirty generations (likely a few more than that) for the kings of the Jaredites. Naively assigning 20 years to each generation suggests a timespan of only 600 years, which seems far too short, putting the events at Babel somewhere around 1000-1200 BC. By assigning a greater span to each generation and/or inserting as many generations as desired in the spaces where the record says only that So-and-so "was a descendant of" This Other Guy*, you can arbitrarily increase this span to however long you want. 2000 years (twice the Nephite nation's span) is a reasonable enough guess -- but it is only that, a guess.
*"Ether...was a descendant of Coriantor", "Aaron was a descendant of Heth", and "Morianton was a descendant of Riplakish." The first two look like they were either father-son or grandfather-grandson, since the narrative states that "A begat B".

My personal thoughts is that this civilization was greater and spread farther than people think. At this moment, I am more convinced that the narrow strip of land isn't in North America (aka United States). The narrow strip of land seems to fit with the Mesoamerica Model; however, I am more of the mind it spanned North and South America.
What this thread confirms with all religious inferences, there is always another questions, or questions, that may or may not negate what was previously thought. Like, how far did Coriantumr travel before he was found by the people of Zarahemla? If Mesoamerica is true, man Moroni sure walked a good distance before he died (dodging Lamanites along the way).
@Just_A_Guy, mentioned it was 23 days or so, if so that would make around 380 miles between two places if you are walking 2 miles an hour (Stop Math Time: if you are able to walk 2 miles in one hour, how many miles did you walk in one hour?).
At this moment, I am good with the possibility of both. The mound builders in North America are very intriguing. The new discovery of Mayan population is also very intriguing especially since one anti argument was the size of population discussed in the Book of Mormon and people saying there was never that many people on this continent, and again they stick their foot in their mouth.
But, I think I will just eat and place bets!

It is interesting how we define things.  Long ago when I was young and thought competition was important – it was not team sports.  When we divided up to play I was the last chosen.  I am living proof that being a winner in the popular team sports are not necessary to be happy in life.
I have competed in non-team sports.  Cycling and skiing.  I do have a bronze medal for both – competing oh so long ago, as an amateur.   I was given an opportunity to try out for the US Olympic ski team but decided to do other things with my life.  But I have learned some things from my experiences.
 There is a reason Norway is good at winter sports.  It is the same reason that during my limited competition skiing I was never beaten by someone that grew up in Florida loving the ocean.  This may come as a shock to some – but Norway and Utah have never produced an Olympic swimmer or any importance.   I honestly do not think it is because of the ribbons or trophies given out in those sports.  Grief, I do believe reporters now days will make an issue out of anything – regardless of facts or what they know of it.
Another thing I have learned about life is that there is a world of difference between a coach and a teacher or professor.   For those of you that do not know – a coach is invested in their student.  The goal of a coach is not a grade – it is to prepare you to win at competition.  Some people will never realize the difference.  I could provide thousands of examples but I will use just one.  When I was a scout master – I believed that when we went to district campouts that we should win the competitions.  So, I prepared my scouts to win.  Our best event was fire building.  The rules required that the scouts build a fire without matches and then build the fire to burn a string 2 feet off the ground.   I designed a giant bow and stick that required 6 scouts working together.  But they could start a fire and burn the string in 15 seconds.  Our closest competition ever was just under 3 minutes.   We always won and my scouts loved it – so did most other scout troops.  And the boys loved showing other scouts how to quickly build a fire.  But there were some scout troops that complained and demanded our boys be disqualified.   What I do not understand is that no one else ever build a giant bow and stick to compete with us.  I guess they had their way of doing things and anything outside their concept was unacceptable. 
There is a bicycle event called the Lotoja.  It is about 225-mile race from Logan Utah to Jackson Hole Wyoming.  It is not just a distance race but a few mountain summits to climb.   The fastest up one particular Mountain receives “The King of the Mountain” award which is as prestigious as winning the race – no one has ever won both.   This is one event that everyone that finishes within the 16-hour limit gets an award.  No one complains about this award because a lot of individuals that start are never able to finish.  I have used the Lotoja as an example of enduring to the end.  No one decides the day of to run this race will finish without training for it.  Part of training is preparation and part of preparation is training for the distance.  It is not just a matter of not giving up.  It is being in shape to ride the 225 miles.  It is knowing how to and training yourself to eat properly.  It is more than just knowing how to ride a bicycle.  It is being prepared both mentally and physically for the distance.
 
The Traveler

As I read this thread – I am beginning to wonder if the most harmful misconceptions about Mormons are those that we perpetrate among ourselves.
 
The Traveler
 
 

It's funny the way the Battle Flag of Virginia (otherwise known as the Confederate Flag these days) has gotten the reputation it has.  It's message has changed to a degree.
Yes, I suppose, even back in the day it was partly due to the rebellious spirit of the South, but it also showed pride.  By waving the flag it showed that though defeated, the South was still proud of it's ancestors and it's history.  That though beaten, they still felt they were equals with the North.  It sprang out of those who felt that the North tried to shame those who were from the South to being ashamed of being born in the South and growing up in the South.  Instead of bowing to this shame, they felt they needed to show that they were proud of where they grew up.  Thus, it was a symbol of Southern pride, to say that one need not be ashamed of growing up Southern. 
It was utilized as a racist symbol by some (especially the KKK), but it was also used by a LOT more than simply those that were racist.  It was a symbol of rebelliousness, but not that of rebelling against a nation, but that of rebelling against being shamed for simply existing.  Thus the flag was used by a LOT of people in the South who had no racist agenda or belief, but rather to show that they could gather under this banner to show that they were NOT ashamed of existing.  That they were proud to be Southern. 
Today, it seems most of that is forgotten and instead it is seen as a symbol of racism.  I acknowledge that due to the usage of some racist groups, this is a picture that has grown around the flag in stronger and stronger association.  It is unfortunate though that the rest of the reasons of why this particular flag got so popular among those in the South and from the South have forgotten why this was.
My cousins were proud of their Southern heritage and had this flag flying at their home at times.  I do not see them as being racist, but they were proud of that they were part of the South.  Of course, this was many decades ago and life has changed, but it seems perceptions surrounding this flag has also changed tremendously from when they and I were younger.
As it has developed today, I can understand why many are offended by it being flown.  I can also see why many perceive it as a symbol of racism and hatred.  I understand why such changes to state flags and other arenas have been done, and why it should not be flown anymore, but I find it a little regrettable that some of the other reasons people had for flying it years ago seem to have been forgotten.
I think it is the difference that we see with Gone with the Wind.  One of my mother's favorite movies was Gone with the Wind.  When she watched it, it wasn't about the racist ideas that many see in it today, but about the idea of persevering and the realization of the Southern character in finding out what was important in life, and the things you deal with.  Many today, when looking at Gone with the Wind only see racism and false identity. 
It's a difference of generations and the passing of time I suppose in the perceptions of the past and how that past is reflected upon our present.
 

This is not a misconception; many Latter-day Saints do not drink caffeine. They are wise.

That one is aware of their shortcomings is a good sign. In the words of CS Lewis:
”When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse he understands his own badness less and less. A moderately bad man knows he is not very good: a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right. This is common sense, really....  Good people know about both good and evil: bad people do not know about either.”  Mere Christianity 
I have learned that when I feel comfortable where I am at in my Christian walk that it is not such a good thing and that I need to take some time to examine where I need to improve. 
Elder Holland once said something along the lines of, “The road to perfections means being a little better than you were yesterday.”
”You haven’t failed until you’ve given up.” Elder Uchtdorf 

Would I be willing to accept the answer to my question if I were to ask the Savior, “What shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” (Mark 10:17).  Jesus beheld this man, and loved him even when He looked on his whole being described with the words, “then Jesus beholding him loved him.” (Mark 10:21).  That is so tender.
We don’t know the rest of the story of this man. We don’t know if he did what he was commanded to do; to sell whatever he had and give to the poor. We don’t know, but let’s assume he did. In verse 17, we read that he came running and kneeled before the Lord. So far his actions speak very highly of him, and when he addressed Jesus as “Good Master,” this shows the love and respect he held for Jesus.
But he had great possessions and probably enjoyed having them. Perhaps it took time, but I can imagine him giving them away and serving others around him. It would have taken time to adjust his thinking to be able to overcome them. For some, and maybe he, it would be a short time, and for others, it may take longer. I don’t know which category I would fall into. So, I try every day to give of myself just a little more. And if I fall back a step or two, I do my best to come before Him in humility asking again for help to be and do more.
 If we give our whole heart to Christ, then we may more comfortably take our cross and follow Him. Perhaps this may take a lifetime to accomplish, but if we are willing to keep Christ at the center of our lives, then the possessions won’t take such a great hold of us and we can let go much more easily.
Sometimes our very circumstances are the things we need to give up, or just in the caring of them. Letting go of past experiences may very well be part of my possessions that I am holding onto. If they crowd out my thoughts and love for Jesus Christ, then they need to go! In October 2017 General Conference, Sister Neil F Marriott taught how we might handle our circumstances, “When we give our heart to the Father and the Son, we change our world-even if circumstances around us do not change. We draw closer to Heavenly Father and feel His tender acceptances of our efforts to be true disciples of Christ.”
Taking our cross today requires personal sacrifice and a willingness to be His disciple. We will grow closer to Heavenly Father when we show we are trying to be as this man who came running and kneeled down before the Savior to ask Him what he could do to inherit eternal life. How often do we ask this of ourselves and with such urgency?

If Jesus told me, "If you will be my son, sell all you have, give it to the poor, and live the rest of your life depending solely upon my mercies," I truly think that I would have relatively little problem doing that. Bring it on! If I die in the attempt, hey, I'm good!
But what if Jesus said, "If you will be my son, forgive everyone completely for every nasty, unkind, and vicious thing they may ever have done to you"? Well, that would be harder. I'd probably ask what it actually means to forgive someone, and try to discover what exactly it looks like to have forgiven someone.
What if Jesus said, "If you will be my son, sacrifice your wife and/or your children. Agree to let them suffer a brief, horrifying, painful existence followed by an ignominious death"? I realize that's stupid, of course -- except that is the very trial that people I know have been called to suffer. What if that were the Lord's word to me?
I have confidence that, as I strive to follow Christ, I am made stronger step by step. But scenarios such as these keep me from being too confident.

It may be in this life, that many who are the first, those that have power and riches will be the last...and those who we despise in this life...those who are homeless, poor, cast out, but believers and faithful to the Lord...will be those who have positions of glory and power in the hereafter.
It is interesting the comment the Lord makes about the rich...it is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle (that's a needle, not THE needle, many scholars in an attempt to justify riches take it to mean this refers to THE NEEDLE, a gate in Jerusalem...but I read it as it is written...as A needle...which is basically saying it is going to be VERY hard...which hopefully does NOT condemn me, but who knows).
I am NOT considered one of the 1% in the US as far as I know, but compared to the rest of the world I might be considered to be wealthy (as many would be in the US).  I suppose the easy way to stop being rich is to actually give away most of what I have and live on a subsistence amount.  Why have I not done so?  Probably the reason most others have not done so...even though the Lord points out how riches are an obstacle.  I am too attached to the comforts of this life.  I hope that I am not condemned for such ridiculousness...and such selfishness...but I am not the one too judge...it is the Lord's realm.
I do take hope though, for as the apostles saw that this young rich man was very righteous, even they wondered who could be saved if such could not be.  The Lord then says...that with God...all things are possible.  And Peter then says the thing which is greater than what I, or most of anyone living today has dne...where he states...
Peter was a very righteous man if we really look at his acts and what he did.  If I can merely even think about being as righteous as he was...I would probably be a far better person than I am now.

@Blossom76
When I was young and learning of life I joined the army – this was during the Vietnam era.  When I left home, and entered active duty I received a blessing from my father.  In that blessing I was promised that if I made a covenant with G-d to be loyal to the word of wisdom that I would be “Protected” while I served.  Mostly I thought that it meant that I would not die in Vietnam – that may have been part of it but there were other dangers to my spirituality.  So profound were the blessings that I received that I have committed myself to the principles of the Word of Wisdom for my entire life – even to the most extreme position of no caffeinated soft drinks.  I have kept that covenant to the letter.  I have even kept my physical body in shape and avoided being overweight. 
Interestingly I have had two accidents ridding my bicycle and being hit by a car.  Once so badly those that saw the accident thought I was killed – but I have never even broken a bone.  I have truly been protected physically but I believe much more spiritually.  I have experienced miracles – many miracles.  Not just with myself but also with others that I did not even know – that were inspired to help me in dark hours when I needed it the most.
 
The Traveler

@Blossom76
When I was young and learning of life I joined the army – this was during the Vietnam era.  When I left home, and entered active duty I received a blessing from my father.  In that blessing I was promised that if I made a covenant with G-d to be loyal to the word of wisdom that I would be “Protected” while I served.  Mostly I thought that it meant that I would not die in Vietnam – that may have been part of it but there were other dangers to my spirituality.  So profound were the blessings that I received that I have committed myself to the principles of the Word of Wisdom for my entire life – even to the most extreme position of no caffeinated soft drinks.  I have kept that covenant to the letter.  I have even kept my physical body in shape and avoided being overweight. 
Interestingly I have had two accidents ridding my bicycle and being hit by a car.  Once so badly those that saw the accident thought I was killed – but I have never even broken a bone.  I have truly been protected physically but I believe much more spiritually.  I have experienced miracles – many miracles.  Not just with myself but also with others that I did not even know – that were inspired to help me in dark hours when I needed it the most.
 
The Traveler