Traveler

Eloi Eloi Lama sabachthani.  Christ own words - there is no getting around that.

First of all, I don't think Christ did what he did and said what he said to fulfill prophesy. Rather, it was revealed to David what Christ would do and say and David recorded it. IMHO.
Secondly, I don't think this was an expression of doubt but rather surprise. Not every aspect of the atonement was made known to Christ prior to it taking place. In the garden he was amazed at the magnitude of suffering required of him. He had not expected it then and he did not expect the Father withdrawing his presence while on the cross.
Thirdly, for Christ to descend below all things and to suffer all the things we suffer because of our sins, Christ needed to experience just what it felt like to be cut off from the presence of God because of our sins. If it did not happen he could not fully empathize with our situation.

@clbent04
Shakespeare once said something along the line – “Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so.”  I believe the first step to achieve (or fail) is to think it will be so.
I will add another thought - no one can change anything or anybody but themselves.
 
The Traveler

I used to love what I called desert survival camping.  I would take with me a little as possible and go alone into the desert.  I once walked into the desert of southern Utah with my cloths, a knife, about 20 feet of rope and a small wool blanket for 40 days.   I believe this helps a person focused on “things” that really matter.  The reason I bring this up is because often we think things are valuable when in reality, they will not keep you alive when you are alone in the desert.   I agree with your notion that nothing cannot exist – but things can be worthless (without value). 
But there is something else – things can be worse than worthless.  Some “things” can be a burden.  In my understanding – this is worse that worthless.  I believe the idea is that unless there is charity there is no progress – nothing of value can be accomplished.  It means that if you do not take charity with you into the desert that you will not survive.  When I was on my 40-day survival – I was expecting a spiritual experience.  I thought my experience was ruined because I ran across a lost individual in serious condition.  It nearly cost me my life to get this person to help.  It took me many years to realize that helping that person was the spiritual experience that I was seeking.
If someone is seeking salvation – their seeking is worthless if their motivation is to be saved.  Like when I was in the wilderness – my experience would not have been of any value if I had abandoned the dying individual.  I do not know if I could have even lived my life have I not risked my own life for someone else.  I only wish that I could have been of more help to more in their hour of greatest need.
 
The Traveler

Perhaps in our arrogance we overlook the “nothingness” of ourselves and the great personal sacrifice and suffering of Christ.  It is my personal understanding that our agency (which includes our ability to sin) is a direct and specific “GIFT” given to us through Christ from the Father.  Because Jesus gives us the law and is also responsible for our agency – he is complicit for every individual and all sins we commit.  This is in part why Lucifer wanted the glory of being the Christ but not willing to share the responsibility for the sins we commit. 
I would also point out that the very definition of the “shedding of innocent blood” is the act of deliberately sinning and knowingly causing the suffering and pain of Christ with the knowledge or intent that we will not have to so suffer for our deliberate acts.   The blood of Christ is the only innocent blood.  The more we understand the atonement the greater are our un-repented sins – regardless of how minor we may want to excuse (make excuse) of them at the time..
 
The Traveler

Yes – In the hymn “O My Father”.  This hymn has significant spiritual meaning and has been sung at some temple dedications. 
Sorry – I read the OP incorrectly.   One thought – the term covenant in scripture is often expressed as a “son” or “daughter” of the law giver and/or proctor of the law in the covenant.  We see such things as sons and daughters of G-d, sons and daughters of Adam and Eve (sometimes expressed as sons of Adam and daughters of Eve).  Also, the sons of Zadok or sons or Melchizedek.  Because we are fallen we have only one mediator that is the covenant heir to the Suzerain of the “Kingdom” of heaven.  If there was a “daughter” of the Suzerain that did not fall with us then we could not have a legal relationship because of our status (having just the one mediator).  So for all that have fallen the title of daughter to the Suzerain could not exist nor have meaning to us.   Likewise nor does "Mother".  Which may explain why there are no direct revelations (other than reasonable thinking) concerning her relationship to us.
 
The Traveler

I agree with  @Traveler  that the "nothing" is related to value--particularly spiritual.
However, I also think the word "nothing"  is being used in relative terms rather than absolute--i.e. I make a piddly monthly wage, so in absolute terms I am not making "nothing," though my monthly wages is "nothing" compared with Bill Gates.
[Edit: A scriptural example of relatively "nothing" is in Moses 1:8-10 (emphasis mine):  "And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld theworld upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered....Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed."]
With that in mind, I believe that things are considered as relatively "nothing" in value without charity because charity is such an exponential magnifier, not just within the individual performing the charity, but also the recipients blessed thereby, and this compounded by the ripple effect of the recipients being inspired to paying it forward.
For example, if I eat breakfast and lunch tomorrow, I will be personally satiated for a few hours, and much of what I eat will likely become dross. Whereas, if I donate the proceeds of those two meals to Fast Offerings, it not only alters my soul a bit for the better for eternity, but it may also allow  someone enough sustenance and hope to  survive and eventually to thrive, putting them in a position to help others on Fast Sunday, and on and on.
Analogously, had the one seed been selfishly consumed, it will amount to relatively nothing compared with the potential yield from the immense orchard resulting from that single seed being planted charitably. One seed planted, producing abundant fruit annually, some of which is used to plant more trees, and so on and and so forth. 
Something to consider.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I used to love what I called desert survival camping.  I would take with me a little as possible and go alone into the desert.  I once walked into the desert of southern Utah with my cloths, a knife, about 20 feet of rope and a small wool blanket for 40 days.   I believe this helps a person focused on “things” that really matter.  The reason I bring this up is because often we think things are valuable when in reality, they will not keep you alive when you are alone in the desert.   I agree with your notion that nothing cannot exist – but things can be worthless (without value). 
But there is something else – things can be worse than worthless.  Some “things” can be a burden.  In my understanding – this is worse that worthless.  I believe the idea is that unless there is charity there is no progress – nothing of value can be accomplished.  It means that if you do not take charity with you into the desert that you will not survive.  When I was on my 40-day survival – I was expecting a spiritual experience.  I thought my experience was ruined because I ran across a lost individual in serious condition.  It nearly cost me my life to get this person to help.  It took me many years to realize that helping that person was the spiritual experience that I was seeking.
If someone is seeking salvation – their seeking is worthless if their motivation is to be saved.  Like when I was in the wilderness – my experience would not have been of any value if I had abandoned the dying individual.  I do not know if I could have even lived my life have I not risked my own life for someone else.  I only wish that I could have been of more help to more in their hour of greatest need.
 
The Traveler

I used to love what I called desert survival camping.  I would take with me a little as possible and go alone into the desert.  I once walked into the desert of southern Utah with my cloths, a knife, about 20 feet of rope and a small wool blanket for 40 days.   I believe this helps a person focused on “things” that really matter.  The reason I bring this up is because often we think things are valuable when in reality, they will not keep you alive when you are alone in the desert.   I agree with your notion that nothing cannot exist – but things can be worthless (without value). 
But there is something else – things can be worse than worthless.  Some “things” can be a burden.  In my understanding – this is worse that worthless.  I believe the idea is that unless there is charity there is no progress – nothing of value can be accomplished.  It means that if you do not take charity with you into the desert that you will not survive.  When I was on my 40-day survival – I was expecting a spiritual experience.  I thought my experience was ruined because I ran across a lost individual in serious condition.  It nearly cost me my life to get this person to help.  It took me many years to realize that helping that person was the spiritual experience that I was seeking.
If someone is seeking salvation – their seeking is worthless if their motivation is to be saved.  Like when I was in the wilderness – my experience would not have been of any value if I had abandoned the dying individual.  I do not know if I could have even lived my life have I not risked my own life for someone else.  I only wish that I could have been of more help to more in their hour of greatest need.
 
The Traveler

I used to love what I called desert survival camping.  I would take with me a little as possible and go alone into the desert.  I once walked into the desert of southern Utah with my cloths, a knife, about 20 feet of rope and a small wool blanket for 40 days.   I believe this helps a person focused on “things” that really matter.  The reason I bring this up is because often we think things are valuable when in reality, they will not keep you alive when you are alone in the desert.   I agree with your notion that nothing cannot exist – but things can be worthless (without value). 
But there is something else – things can be worse than worthless.  Some “things” can be a burden.  In my understanding – this is worse that worthless.  I believe the idea is that unless there is charity there is no progress – nothing of value can be accomplished.  It means that if you do not take charity with you into the desert that you will not survive.  When I was on my 40-day survival – I was expecting a spiritual experience.  I thought my experience was ruined because I ran across a lost individual in serious condition.  It nearly cost me my life to get this person to help.  It took me many years to realize that helping that person was the spiritual experience that I was seeking.
If someone is seeking salvation – their seeking is worthless if their motivation is to be saved.  Like when I was in the wilderness – my experience would not have been of any value if I had abandoned the dying individual.  I do not know if I could have even lived my life have I not risked my own life for someone else.  I only wish that I could have been of more help to more in their hour of greatest need.
 
The Traveler

We have several accounts of the “creation” in scripture.   Those that pay close attention to each account realize that days 3 and 4 are out of order.  But this will only be known by someone loyal and attentive to all covenants required for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom (a quick note here because we are commended to remain “awake” and “attentive” to revelations received with certain covenants).  I would suggest that those that rely solely on scripture for their understanding of things do not understand as much as they should or could.
 
The Traveler

It's not. I was highlighting the reality that just stopping is easy to understand, but difficult to execute. Your post mentioned prayer, which is so important. Another aspect is to realize that accepting the need to stop doesn't instantly eliminate, or even hinder, the temptation. Overcoming temptation--especially one we have habitually given in to previously--is often a daily slog, with victory only coming after many, many battles.

There are libraries with thousands of books written over hundreds of years about textual criticism of Bible translations or versions.  Ancient Hebrew grammar is not well defined and has changed significantly over time.  The first 5 books are called the Books of Moses but the oldest copies of these ancient text that we have come to us from the Dead Sea Scriptures and is about 1,500 years after we believe Moses lived.  It was believed that for hundreds of years the 5 books of Moses were preserved by oral tradition.  Oral traditions were considered poetic (think of memorizing a song or poem) that has particular structure to make memorizing easier.  There are many ancient Hebrew poetic structures.  Here are a few: The Lawsuit.  The messenger speech.  The woe oracle.  The prophetic lament. And the priestly sermon.  Each has its own rules for grammar.  Plus, if someone was to study Hebrew – pending on the Rabbinical connection there can be variations in modern grammar.
If you are going to study on your own – I would suggest first reading books written by a Jewish Rabbi or Catholic scholars (they are the most reliable {first I consider Rabbis and second Catholics} – I have my own opinions why but I will not go there on this thread) but be mindful what background the author has.  For example, Jesuits have different points of view than Franciscans and Orthodox Jews are quite different from “liberal” Jews.
In short anything you read, hear or study will have a point of view and an ax to grind.  We LDS do the same thing.  It is my personal opinion that there are more disputes over meaning (textual criticism) of the Bible than there are of any other ancient or modern texts.  I would council to be warry, especially anyone that thinks they know (without any possible other meaning) the exact meaning of any Biblical verse (especially if they say, “literal meaning” rather than consider symbolic meaning – most likely they do not know much about the ancient texts and how they are used to create modern versions.  There is a reason why Bibles today are called versions and not translations – but that is another discussion.
Good luck
 
The Traveler

If I may suggest answers:
#1: Blunt truth. Rom 3:23 and other scriptures teach us that we all sin and that none of us "deserves" celestial glory. We may need to be careful not to descend into the Calvinist idea of "total depravity", and I would quibble with your "am not and never will be". This is where we must learn to rely on the Savior in order to obtain celestial glory. We can and will some day be saved through the Savior's atonement.
#2. If #1 is a blunt truth, then I think #2 is a lie or a misunderstanding. I don't think (or at least I am really hoping and believing) that God can still save me even if I don't have a full grasp of the law of chastity. I believe, as Elder Bednar once said, "The power of procreation is spiritually significant." (Apr. 2013 GC). I believe that the purpose of the atonement is to help us overcome our imperfections -- even when we fail to perfectly overcome them in this life. Others have suggested sex addiction therapy, I am skeptical of the sex as addiction model, so I don't know if I would make the exact same recommendation. I think there is value in working (with or without ecclasiastical or professional help as personal situations warrant) on developing a good, accurate, healthy relationship with our sexuality, without demanding some kind of "perfection" of ourselves.
#3 is also a lie or misunderstanding. I believe that prayer is effective, but I don't believe that God always intervenes in His creation the way we want. I don't fully understand it (if anyone really can), but this is one of those things where faith is important. Developing the faith that God is still there and that prayer is still effective even when God chooses not intervene the way I think He should is challenging. This is also something I don't expect perfection in myself, and rely on the Savior to "help my unbelief".
I could agree that I don't think I have ever felt any help from God to overcome "lust" (especially by my old, Augustinian-like definitions of lust). The last few years, I have found myself re-evaluating what lust is. Is it possible that the perceived failure here is because of a misunderstanding of what lust truly is? I think I am getting a better understanding now, and I think I better understand why I didn't see God helping me overcome my lust. I had the wrong understanding and expectations.
#4 Misunderstanding or blunt truth -- I'm not sure. Someone who has truly reached the point of " self-pegged myself as ending up somewhere other than the Celestial Kingdom" has also rejected (on some level) Christ's infinite and eternal atonement and His ability to draw us into the CK. Moroni talks about faith, hope, and charity and includes in that discussion the importance of developing and retaining hope that we can be saved through Christ's atonement. I don't think the "checklist things" give us that hope, but that hope comes from an understanding and a testimony of the atonement. I hope that, when we feel that we have lost hope for ourselves, that we learn to turn towards the Savior to find and regain that hope.
 

I don't disagree. I don't. However, could we not replace "watching porn" with the more generic "sinning?" Here's the argument:  People are dying for Jesus, and have throughout history. Jesus, as a complete human, endured death on the cross when he could have stopped it all, at any point, and rained justice upon his tormentors. Barely-teenaged girls are enduring gang rape in the Sudan, because they will not renounce Christ. So...why can't I just stop looking, eating, thinking, doing ... ?
Romans 7 makes it clear that we cannot/will not quickly or suddenly get over it. The Apostle Paul says he does what he knows he must not, and fails to do what he knows he must. His answer is Jesus.
So...one day at a time, one decision at a time, always bathed in prayer (as you highlighted), and always in humble reliance on the Holy Spirit for this moment's strength. We will win, but we must not underestimate the road to our victory.

I do not necessarily post for resolution – my main purpose is to try to get people to think and consider possibilities – especially to explorer possibilities they have never considered before.   I have found that the fewer viewpoints one is willing to consider (ponder) the less likely they are to stumble across truth.  Once in a while I will speak directly to something I believe (like now).  I believe that if someone cannot discuss something without becoming angry or upset – They are not influenced by a holy spirit.  To disagree is not a problem – to have disputations is.
Thanks for reading my posts – and responding – this time.  I will look forward to reading more of your posts.
 
The Traveler

I do not necessarily post for resolution – my main purpose is to try to get people to think and consider possibilities – especially to explorer possibilities they have never considered before.   I have found that the fewer viewpoints one is willing to consider (ponder) the less likely they are to stumble across truth.  Once in a while I will speak directly to something I believe (like now).  I believe that if someone cannot discuss something without becoming angry or upset – They are not influenced by a holy spirit.  To disagree is not a problem – to have disputations is.
Thanks for reading my posts – and responding – this time.  I will look forward to reading more of your posts.
 
The Traveler

Just wondering how you personally know what in scripture is not allegorical (meaning a type and shadow ) or prophesy of things to come.  I am of the opinion that everything from G-d is allegorical.  That even what is claimed to be historical is written to be a type and shadow of things to come - See Ecclesiastes 1:9
 
The Traveler

@clbent04
I have determined our relationship with G-d is based in covenant but governed by the following principles:
. G-d does not do for us what we can do for ourselves.
. G-d does do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.
. G-d does not do anything to us that is for our eternal detriment.
. G-d does do for us that which is for our eternal benefit.
. G-d will not do anything for us without our covenant approval.
 
The covenant promises we make with G-d, although vague is quite simple:
. To love him as he loves us.
. To love others as we would ourselves.
 
The primary attribute of love is sacrifice.  In short, without sacrifice there is no love – love demands sacrifice.
Concerning knowledge of good and evil – The knowledge of evil can only come from the experience of death – death is the consequence or esence of evil.  There are two elements of death: 1. The separation of spirit from physical (we call physical death).  2. Separation of spirit (intelligence) from divine light and truth (we call this spiritual death) - spiritual death is when covenant relationship with G-d is broken.
The knowledge of good can only come from the experience of being saved from death (evil) through a divine atonement (act of ultimate sacrifice or love).
 
G-d is an eternal being - as are we - there has never been a moment that we were uninfluenced by G-d - and there never will be.  Likewise there has never been a time G-d has not been aware of us and never will be. 
 
The Traveler

@clbent04
I have determined our relationship with G-d is based in covenant but governed by the following principles:
. G-d does not do for us what we can do for ourselves.
. G-d does do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.
. G-d does not do anything to us that is for our eternal detriment.
. G-d does do for us that which is for our eternal benefit.
. G-d will not do anything for us without our covenant approval.
 
The covenant promises we make with G-d, although vague is quite simple:
. To love him as he loves us.
. To love others as we would ourselves.
 
The primary attribute of love is sacrifice.  In short, without sacrifice there is no love – love demands sacrifice.
Concerning knowledge of good and evil – The knowledge of evil can only come from the experience of death – death is the consequence or esence of evil.  There are two elements of death: 1. The separation of spirit from physical (we call physical death).  2. Separation of spirit (intelligence) from divine light and truth (we call this spiritual death) - spiritual death is when covenant relationship with G-d is broken.
The knowledge of good can only come from the experience of being saved from death (evil) through a divine atonement (act of ultimate sacrifice or love).
 
G-d is an eternal being - as are we - there has never been a moment that we were uninfluenced by G-d - and there never will be.  Likewise there has never been a time G-d has not been aware of us and never will be. 
 
The Traveler

I believe in evolution because every life that exist springs from evolution.   Not a single counter example.  You and every other life from evolves from a single cell.  Even Jesus evolved from the conception of a single cell to become a complex living child.
But concerning Eden – I am of a notion that Eden speaks symbolically of a pre-existence.   Adam in Hebrew means mankind.  I believe we all choose to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and with Adam and Eve became fallen.  We are fallen mortals by our own just choice and agency - not by an unjust consequence of birth.  That the fall was and remains an integral and always necessary part of the perfect divine Plan of Salvation that all must partake to know good from evil in preparation for Celestial Law – not a bandage to correct an untended mistake.  We know and taste evil in death – thus the knowledge of evil is symbolic of death – both as a fallen mortal and as exile from the Father.  The knowledge of good is to know through our experience of the atonement and sacrifice of the Father and the Son to redeem all the sins of fallen mortal man and to bring about the merciful resurrection of all (though unworthy) that choose the Father’s Plan of Salvation.   We are all partaking symbolically of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  The Eden epoch is about our covenant of salvation with G-d.
 
The Traveler

First – do not confuse ordinance with ritual.  I believe ordinance encompasses more.   To become a citizen of a Kingdom there are a number of “things” that must take place.  First, we must become qualified.  Second, we must both join the kingdom and become accepted as a participant (legal citizen).
I believe the Celestial Kingdom is a divine society of freedom, liberty and justice for all its Citizens.  I believe the Celestial Kingdom is the only kingdom where its citizens enjoy freedom, liberty and justice.    This is because I believe only Celestial Law fulfils freedom, liberty and justice.  Those that cannot abide Celestial Law are bound by the law and are subject to justice.
Jesus said, “If you continue in my word, you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.”  I believe this references the law (in particular, Celestial Law).   To prepare us for Celestial Law we are given several preparatory laws (like the Law of the Gospel, The Law of Sacrifice, the Law of Chasity and others).  Our preparation includes ordinances – beginning with Baptism.  Note that when someone is given the Holy Ghost the ordinance also includes a declaration of membership in the “Kingdom of G-d” as established on earth via the Kingdom’s Vassals chosen and carinated (ordained) by the Suzerain or his designated Vassal given the Keys of the Kingdom.  This is not a meaningless jester but a binding covenant that gives the “disciple” 3 distinct promises (also part of the Abraham covenant and law).  They are – 1. A promise Land (right to place in the Celestial rheum).  2. Protection from Enemies and being plundered by enemies (forgiveness of sins and prevention from Satan taking control of one’s inheritance).  3. Enduring posterity - meaning endless “seed” and eternal life.
In response, the “disciple” promises to remain loyal and faithful in all things to the sovereign King or supreme Suzerain of the Kingdom.  These things define the Law, the ordinances and the everlasting covenant.  Note that an enduring posterity necessitates marriage as prescribed by the law.
Note in passing – I have yet to find any other claim to provide citizenship in the divine kingdom of G-d.  Without revelation, they do not seem to understand the Kingdom of G-d or it laws, ordinances and covenants.  But they seem to be obsessed only with doctrine and thus deny the power of the kingdom.
 
The Traveler

@person0
I think that any time two individuals of different families and gender – that are legally married before the laws of G-d and man - can somehow come to some agreement concerning how to raise children – that they have achieved, perhaps life’s greatest challenge.  Adolescences should be encouraged to develop their own theories as to how they will complete the challenge of raising children but trying to include such input may prove overwhelming and overly complex to parents that have much more important things on their plate.
 
The Traveler

That more religious institutions (and theologians) are interested in discussing doctrines rather than divine Law.  Which is why ordinances have been changed and in some cases thought unnecessary - in particular marriage.  Marriage is not a doctrine but a principle of divine eternal law and covenant.  Because many think "doctrine"; they teach marriage as doctrine only binding until death.
 
The Traveler

Interesting that you reference “The Law of the Garden”.  Is that different than other law – such as the “Law of the Gospel”?  I have not encountered the “Law of the Garden”.   Do you have a reference, idea or opinion?  Can you tell me what you think the “Law of the Garden” is?
 
The Traveler
 
BTW do not worry about your communications skills – my inabilities will likely trump our discussion anyway.