notquiteperfect

Are we detecting bitterness in the tone ?

The only suggestion I would add is that if you have any ancestors that crossed the plains, look into their stories and visit places that are mentioned.  For instance, I have a great great (great? - can never remember) that lived in Iowa while the saints were in Nauvoo (that's when he joined the Church) so I'd go to that town to get an idea of distance from his place to Nauvoo.  I also have an ancestor buried at Winter Quarters so I'd make sure to visit her grave, not just the cemetery. Things like that might make the trip a bit more personal.

The only suggestion I would add is that if you have any ancestors that crossed the plains, look into their stories and visit places that are mentioned.  For instance, I have a great great (great? - can never remember) that lived in Iowa while the saints were in Nauvoo (that's when he joined the Church) so I'd go to that town to get an idea of distance from his place to Nauvoo.  I also have an ancestor buried at Winter Quarters so I'd make sure to visit her grave, not just the cemetery. Things like that might make the trip a bit more personal.

That was an excellent read. I was thinking about where I work (analogous to the church). My boss, (analogous to the prophet) constantly supervises our site and is always making suggestions, adjusting policy, amending paperwork procedures, and (he'd be the first to admit it) making mistakes. Much of the changes made in the past two years have been corrections and adjustments to previous policies/procedures laid out by previous supervisors (analogous to church history). Sometimes my boss says, "This is how it is," and then comes back a month or two later and says, "After talking with the legal department, it actually needs to be this way." (Analogous to fallibility of the prophets and "thus saith the Lord." Having said all that, my current boss is the best boss I've ever worked for and is still very good at what he does despite being human.
 
I would not just up and leave my place of employment merely because fallible bosses make changes, sometimes make mistakes, and set rules above me that I can't control. I understand that my institution is run by good leaders who, although fallible, receive instruction from those above them and execute the authority necessary to keep the institution running at it's best possible capacity, and I contribute my part.
 
If we all quit everything just because of the imperfections of all people and institutions within society, nobody would stick to anything.
 
Why would any of that be different for the church? :)

To each his own, I guess . . . .the question is how did you gain that self-control?  During your teenager years would you have the same self-control as today?  
 
What teenage boy would be able to go into VS or Fredrick's, etc. and not be aroused.  What teenage boy would not be aroused by going to a beach and seeing a lot of very attractive young women in bikini's?
 
And the line between lingerie model photographs and pornography is IMO very, very small.  In fact, one could make the claim that lingerie photographs do more to enhance arousal vs. simply naked pictures.  So if you are saying you can walk into Fredrick's and be okay, then you are in essence saying you can look at naked pictures and be okay.  More power to you, but do recognize that that expectation of the younger male population in general is pretty unrealistic.
 
Dollar's to donuts, I bet a significant portion of the LDS population who has porn issues, started through seemingly innocent things.  I sure know I do not want my 16 year old son (when he gets there) watching VS shows and going into Fredrick's.
 
In general talks on modesty are aimed at the youth, why, because they are the most vulnerable to the trappings of the temptation.  They do not have the wisdom, experience, or age to be able to walk into Fredrick's and be totally okay.  
 
So I have no problem for the Church or adult leaders to teach that a) we should be modest, b ) it is a shared responsibility both on the viewer to "garnish their thoughts" but also on the viewee to not be walking lingerie model that would encourage the viewer to not garnish their thoughts.  And when individuals say that wearing modest clothes is a form of self-respect, it is, b/c as my wife says "if you don't want to be thought of as a particular type of person, then don't dress like one."
 
I have no idea of your age, but men's libido on average drops as they get older and if they are married, thereby making it easier to reset temptation.
 
If a dress didn't affect a significant portion of the male population then what Cameron Russell does at the beginning of her TED talk wouldn't matter:
 
http://www.ted.com/talks/cameron_russell_looks_aren_t_everything_believe_me_i_m_a_model
 
Why did she change clothes from a very good looking and fairly modest (in today's standards, but certainly not garment enabled) outfit into something different?
 
To deny the why of her decision to change outfits is to deny reality.

You find what you look for.  Too bad that's what you would choose to see.

In speaking only on dress...
 
A beautiful woman walks in the room dressed modestly - Yes there still could be impure thoughts but one would have to use their imagination.
 
A beautiful woman walks into the room dressed immodestly - The chances then become far greater since the imagination is snatched from me or taken to a whole new level if I dwell.
 
Multiple beautiful women walk into a room dressed immodestly - Vastly more difficult. I personally would need to leave. (human shaped cloud where I once stood). This doesn't mean I am weak, just that I accept what a situation like that COULD do to me.
 
Yes yes, self control. But the day that people can have that much self control is the day that the prophet announces that dressing immodestly is acceptable. Are they responsible for my thoughts? Nope. Can they help or hinder my thoughts? Of course. I understand that ultimately I am accountable for my own decisions and thoughts. God will judge us all in the end.

Honestly, I wish she had spoken up.  I believe (if you haven't guessed!) that the underlying point of the lesson is valid; but I think it should be balanced with a reminder that while, as a general principle, we are our brothers' (and sisters') keepers; ultimately we are each accountable for our own actions.

I think a preacher said the following paraphrased that I found amusing:
 
I'd like to find that fruit that made Adam and Eve realize they were naked and pass it around to people again.

Help me reconcile these two points.
 
 
If a woman is not responsible in the way she dresses for men's thoughts and lusts, how can the men in the class be accountable with their words for the discomfort your daughter felt? Both are forms of communication, apparently expressing a message.

Since this has come up again I'll post a follow up since it turned out to be a life lesson.  She did a good job with the tasks and I ended up being a bit more generous than I was planning on but the exchange still gives me satisfaction.  She was so pleasantly surprised that I'm glad we have that 'thread' between us than one of being frustrated/annoyed/feeling jipped.  

Hello All,
Since you were so friendly last week, I thought I should update you all and let you know I started reading the Book of Mormon on my way into work today. Don't worry, I take the train so I wasn't reading and driving! Ha. 
Again, thank you all for taking the time to answer and respond to my post; I do greatly appreciate it. 

The issue in reality is that the government has gotten in to the business of mandating that a private entity must provide health care to its employees. This whole notion is an absolutely ridiculous bundle of nonsense, irrationality, and madness.
Businesses use to offer health care because it attracted the best and the brightest. Now the American psyche has been diluted so that we believe an individual MUST provide healthcare to another individual.
Private business is but an extension of the individual. The goal of this current Administration is to bring all entities under government control and rule. The philosophy is one of where the government provides the answers to ALL of the ills of mankind. Government must be large and have its tentacles in every aspect of people’s lives, at all levels. Only those who are in government are exempted from their own rules. This is done supposedly, for the "good" of the people.
We have a largely ignorant population who worry about the Kardashians and know the lyrics to the latest rap and pop-songs but don't know what it means to be a Republic. They don't know what it means to be The People. There is a large portion of the country that depends on the government coffers for their livelihood. There is a certain segment of society (irrespective of race) that purposefully and quite consciously remains under the poverty level so that they can receive free food, free housing, free phones, free healthcare, etc. The Liberal Left depend on this segment. They depend on the secularization of the country because it provides the rationality that government, not God, is the answer to life's difficulties. They depend on the ignorant remaining ignorant. They depend on outright lies and the principles of sophistry to win the day.
The reason why the Hobby Lobby win is a limited win and barely a win to liberty and for the Republic is because the law which is the catalyst for this legal decision is still alive. The ACA is a travesty and it is criminal. It is the fruit of liars, robbers, thieves, and murderers. What worries me is that it seems only a relatively few in the country recognize what is happening and that a large majority of the People haven't yet awoken to a sense of their awful situation:
Ether 8

-Finrock

Aside from getting a lawyer, start documenting everything - dates, times, phone calls, when he drops the ball, financial matters, etc.

Aside from getting a lawyer, start documenting everything - dates, times, phone calls, when he drops the ball, financial matters, etc.

Two things:
- sometimes a mission is more for the missionary so focus on what *you* gained from it
- this church requires a lot and is not for the faint of heart and unfortunately some just aren't ready to handle it
 
xxx

Two things:
- sometimes a mission is more for the missionary so focus on what *you* gained from it
- this church requires a lot and is not for the faint of heart and unfortunately some just aren't ready to handle it
 
xxx

such awesome advice i got.
thanks guys.

I think you ran into a problem the moment you told them that others had influence on your choice.
 
Now anyone in a healthy relationship knows that a spouse's opinions and ideas influence the other spouse.  And of course sincere religious belief does as well.
 
The problem is by acknowledging the influence people hear, "Oh I would but... Such and such wouldn't like it."  Had you simply said, "This is what I have chosen to wear."  They would have thought you were weird but they would have not had anything else to go on and most likely dropped it.
 
But by acknowledging your husband's and religious influence your brought up one of the more common circumstances of abuse, and that is where they went with it.

Admittedly this is just me being contrary, show up wearing more cloth next time.

People are ignorant.  Stand for your beliefs and don't back down.

Just make up a few of these signs for your lesson:
 

 

Debate so many times leads to contention. Is that what we want in our lessons?

Then please tell Kate to stop declaring she was, if that's the case.

One of my friends teaches gospel doctrine.  She is a big talker, the ward has lots of commentators... her go-to is the aforementioned "planned sharing".  It keeps the lesson on track beautifully.  Sure, she still allows for the spur-of-the-moment comments, but those don't take up nearly as much as the lesson as they would before. 
 
Now, I also love a good time to debate and share opinions, but that defeats the entire purpose of having lessons.  OW, you seem to be suggesting we do in fact get rid of lessons and just have open debate time for two hours each Sunday.  I say do that on your own time.