Pre-school or not to Pre-school?

[scdoyle]

We have been sending our 4 year old to pre-school and my wife's father is continually giving her a hard time about it. He quotes Ezra Taft Banson where he says we shouldn't send our children to pre-school. Our older 2 children loved pre-school as does our 4 year old. We mainly send him to help develop his social skills and prepare him for Kindergarten. Also, quite frankly, mommy needs a break a couple times a week as she is busy with our newborn and 2 year old. I wanted to see what other's opinions of preschool are. Positive, negative, or otherwise.

[Gwen]

our preschool here is basicly kindergarten, the kids go all day all week, i've heard you can pick them up whenever you want though. i don't send my kids, they will get enough of school. if it were only 2 days a week or half a day i might go for it. but like i said, they will get enough of school. i don't think it's a doctrional issue though. if it works for you and your family and it sounds like it does then it's no one else's business.

[Misshalfway]

I don't think it is a doctrinal issue either. My daughter would die without preschool. She loves it, along with her little dance class. It is something to do. A change of pace. And it does prepare them for Kindergarten in many respects. This is a personal choice.

[siouxz72]

Only my baby went to preschool and she loved it! It really is up to you and it seems like it's a good thing for your family. Keep up the good work!!

[Heather]

What quote by President Benson? I think it's really important to give children social interaction with other children.

[mightynancy]

If your family chooses to send your daughter to preschool, it's none of your FIL's business. "Thank you for your input, Herb. We'll keep that in mind." with a wee smile is all you need. Repeat as necessary.

Both of my kids LOVED preschool.

Like Heather, I'd love to see that quote.

[ruthiechan]

My daughter loved preschool. She is itching to start kindergarten (she hasn't gone to preschool since we moved to San Jose). IPreschool is a GOOD THING. The preschool my daughter went to was approved of by the Spirit. We went to a bunch of them. That was the only one I felt okay with, and the only one that my daughter talked about after getting home and the only one she went off to play without me in sight while I spoke with the Director (if you live in Yuba City and need a preschool this one comes highly recommended). It was also the only one that was approved of by the Spirit.

Day care centers usually have a preschool program for the kids in the morning. So, Gwen, mayhaps you are looking in the wrong place? Also there are many state preschools now that are attached to Elementary schools. Something to look out for.

I feel that Preschool is necessary before starting kindergarten which is basically the intense schooling that focuses on academics. This is especially so in California. While Kindergarten is not a required grade, the Kindergarten curriculum is now the first grade curriculum. First grade is the second grade curriculum and so forth.

Thusly prechool is Kindergarten and is a must for a child before entering Kindergarten. They'll learn all the prereq's to Kindergarten (basically the K curriculum) in a preschool, they'll learn problem solving and social skills with other children, they'll learn that Mommy leaves but always comes back, and they'll do this in a less strict environment. Once Kindergarten hits it's not all fun and games anymore, you'll have to worry about grades, homework, etc, but it'll be less culture shock and less stressful if the child went to a good preschool.

[Gwen]

this may be kinda off topic but.... does it bother anyone else that pre-k or pre-school is what kindergarten used to be?

school used to start at 1st grade, thus the 1. lol then they created an optional 1/2 day kindergarten to help prep for school. then that became a full day and (not sure if it's required) the norm and expected. so then kids "weren't ready" for kindergarten so they created 1/2 day pre-k to prep for k. now the pre-k is a full day.

so if we follow the pattern what will the pre-pre-k be called? sorry the whole concept kinda bothers me.

[MarginOfError]

First, I'd like reference to President Benson saying we shouldn't send our children to daycare. If gambling hadn't been condemned by the Church, I would bet money that what he meant was daycare shouldn't be a substitute for parents raising their children.

Next, you're right Gwen, education is screwed up. There's so much pressure put on them to succeed that a lot of middle class teenagers are developing social and psychological disorders because they're not meeting expectations. This is compounded by schools getting the bright idea to start school earlier and earlier, at 7.15 in some places I've lived. This is in spite of the fact that research has found that teenagers' circadian rhythms are out of whack and they don't tend to be fully alert until almost 9.00 AM. That's PHYSIOLOGICAL! This more and earlier attitude is a very bad thing. Kids should be the stewards of their own education.

[WANDERER]

I was talking to the learning support teacher the other day and she mentioned that preschool (prep: 4 year olds) and Grade One (turning 5) was the best time to target them with repetitive activities because the kids still find them fun.

Secondly you can tell the difference immediately between children who have had prep (or kindy 2 and 3 year olds) and who haven't. Things that are scarey: kids who hold books upside down, don't turn pages properly, don't pretend to read or write (you shouldn't see a circular scribble...it should look kind of like reading and they should realise that gaps are there for a purpose). The best will actually do a kind of scrawl from left to right and I've even seen kids model paragraphs and letter structures..all without being able to write the alphabet..they have the layout. It will look like printing (strokes) or cursive (circular horizontal scrawl). They may model lists. They will know many symbols: stars, hearts, circles, squares and dollar signs. They will pretend to read packaging and know where the word for what it is on it. They will use scissors and be able to hold crayons. Basically...they're bright little buttons already. Some have missed out hugely however. Even the most aware parents who don't send their kids to prep...you can still see the difference. Sometimes they need an extra year in prep because of this and they have to repeat...some kids are just too young and need to start a year later than their peers...I'd still suggest that they get it though. I actually can see the difference 4 years later!!!!!!!!!! Who it isn't beneficial for: the kiddies with recurrent hearing infections and grommets: they don't need exposure to the flu. Hearing deficiencies can be seen 4 years later too.

Thirdly...it is so valued here that it is now part of elementary school (as of this year)...they all start in preschool. And the bonus: they are all going to be tested for hearing and eyesight...this makes me SO HAPPY. As kids who aren't picked up for those can go a couple of years through the education system before it is picked up... (in a worst case scenario: the size of the print is large until then and it starts to become problematic in year 3 and they can't verbalise it because they don't understand...).

I guess you could home school prep and kindy...more power to you if you do...I know how long it takes me to plan work for the kids...plus the social skills and interaction with other home schooling mums and field trips and stuff...or you can ignore it.

Lost...totally lost...straight from day one...when they try to write with the wrong end of a crayon, hold a book upside down and rip pages as they turn them and colour in pictures upside down. Yes, it happens.

LOL at academic stress....5 hours of playdough, drawing, cut and paste, blocks, jigsaw puzzles, dress-up,cooking, singing, story time...stress is the teacher who keeps their portfolio of what they can do and work samples and tries to program games and activities to teach them new skills and positional language (it's the most covert teaching example...you wouldn't know the work that goes into it from looking as everyone looks like they are having fun and playing...which they are).

Edited July 18, 2008 by WANDERER

[MarginOfError]

I wasn't aware of some of those issues. I might spend some time rethinking my opinions a little.

As for academic stress, that was in reference to teenagers. Also, come to think of it, the preschool programs I was reading about were promising to lay the foundation for kids to get into Ivy League schools. Probably not your standard preschool program.

Thanks for setting me straight!

[Misshalfway]

Gwen, I totally have had those same thoughts. It is an interesting turn. From a parental point of view, I see that my kids are so vibrant and need stimiulation. So I see the value and I also see a world that demands competitive skills. So as much as I nothing to rob childhood, I feel compelled to find what works best in the current circumstances.

And then I wanted to say....could we see this Benson quote! I mean, I would really like to see the words and the context of those words!

[scdoyle]

I believe this the Pres. Benson quote that my FIL refers to about pre-school.

"It is a fundamental truth that the responsibilities of motherhood cannot be successfully delegated. No, not to day-care centers, not to schools, not to nurseries, not to babysitters. We become enamored with men's theories such as the idea of preschool training outside the home for young children. Not only does this put added pressure on the budget, but it places young children in an environment away from mother's influence. Too often the pressure for popularity, on children and teens, places an economic burden on the income of the father, so mother feels she must go to work to satisfy her children's needs. That decision can be most shortsighted. It is mother's influence during the crucial formative years that forms a child's basic character. Home is the place where a child learns faith, feels love, and thereby learns from mother's loving example to choose righteousness. How vital are mother's influence and teaching in the home-and how apparent when neglected!" (Ensign, Nov. 1981, p. 104)

[Gwen]

i think the problem isn't preschool or not it's how the parents treat the kids. my kids don't go till kindergarten and they do fine and in some ways excell above the other kids. do i have a huge preschool type lesson plan to prep them at home? no, lol i don't have the time for it. i do teach them to think, i talk to them, we have actual conversations, i explain things, we look things up, and i'm willing to be late to take advantage of teaching moments. kids naturaly want to learn, they are constantly soaking everything up, the question is are the parents utilizing that or ignoring it. if they sit in front of the tv all day or are not allowed to do things themselves then they will not. i don't do "pre-school" with my kids but i do teach them how to learn and how to enjoy it. it's been successful so far. they get to school and may appear "behind" (for example i abhor the alphebet song and will not sing it in my house; so they get to school and think this is some new thing lol) but they soak it all up and have always been on level or above. and i guess when you have kids like i do social skills are built in and the need to find it isn't there as much. lol

[prisonchaplain]

IMHO, most kids are served by preschool (as opposed to daycare). Typically, they run 2 or 3 days per week, for about three hours. They learn to interact with other children their age, to sit for short story times, and, in faith-based programs, that God is in the world.

Children that have special needs, or that are exceptionally gifted, might find such programs difficult or stifling. So, as the Ensign article said, the parents still have to be the parents, and know their children.

[ruthiechan]

I believe this the Pres. Benson quote that my FIL refers to about pre-school.

"It is a fundamental truth that the responsibilities of motherhood cannot be successfully delegated. No, not to day-care centers, not to schools, not to nurseries, not to babysitters. We become enamored with men's theories such as the idea of preschool training outside the home for young children. Not only does this put added pressure on the budget, but it places young children in an environment away from mother's influence. Too often the pressure for popularity, on children and teens, places an economic burden on the income of the father, so mother feels she must go to work to satisfy her children's needs. That decision can be most shortsighted. It is mother's influence during the crucial formative years that forms a child's basic character. Home is the place where a child learns faith, feels love, and thereby learns from mother's loving example to choose righteousness. How vital are mother's influence and teaching in the home-and how apparent when neglected!" (Ensign, Nov. 1981, p. 104)

The problem comes in when people believe that only schools are responsible for teaching academics. Or parents who simply do not get involved in their child's education. Preschool is for the ages of four and five years old. Before that you can have learning curriculums, even for babies, but it's not preschool which is specific for preparing a child for Kindergarten.

At my daughters school the teachers there would say to me, "You work with her at home don't you?" I said "yes, I do". Each one of them would say, using slightly different wording, "I can tell, there's a big difference between the kids whose parents work with them at home and the parents who do not."

So are you letting the school do all the teaching for you? If so, then you may want to consider working on that.

My daughter is five, not yet in Kindergarten (starts next month), she can read simple words and do simple math, she knows how to use scissors (yes, there are parents who do not bother to teach their children how to use a pair of scissors which is a necessary kindergarten skill), she is comfortable with the idea of going to a new school, getting homework, being shy at first and then making friends. Her biggest challenge was her social and emotional skills with other kids. Her teachers did GREAT to help her learn how to stand up for herself (kids liked to take toys away from her and she wouldnt' say anything) and how to simply get along and gain confidence.

However, not all preschools are created equal. If you can, find one that is NAEYC (National Association for the Education of Young Children) accredited but not even that is a gaurantee, and does not mean that a school without it is not any good. You want a school that focuses on the whole child, Cognitive, Creative, Social, Emotional, and Physical (both gross and fine motor skills). My daughter's school was not accredited, but they were working on it (it's a long process) and did focus on the whole child. And the Spirit led me there.

And there's the final part of the analysis. Does the Spirit give the school a stamp of approval for your child? If not, don't bother with it.

[WANDERER]

I was anti-prep...why would you bring 4 year olds to elementary school as a new grade...? They're too young. They need their Mums. We're not a replacement for parenting etc etc. Mums can teach them things we can't...they need one on one and smaller numbers per adult. Let them have another year at home. They need to play. Kids don't need an extra year of schooling. We are not cheap babysitting. Parents are overloading schools with their responsibilities. And so on.

Up until now it has been a choice...children did half day programs and some only a couple of days a week. Preschool was part of the elementary school...just very separate...same block of land...some interaction...but not normally. A different world. Preschool teachers only taught preschool and did specialised degrees.

Setup: free and compulsory...a new grade in elementary school....5 days a week...normal school hours.

Disaster! So I thought. Pre-school teachers in grade one...grade one teachers in preschool and theoretically any teacher could be asked to teach the four year olds. Oh my stars!!!!

I have changed my opinion on that one. It works superbly. I do playground duty there and it's been so much fun watching them change and learn and develop...the first three months I wasn't sold on the idea...6 months on it is just bizarre how fast they have developed and are thriving. I have no desire to teach there...I still see it as an intensely specialised job within teaching that requires a degree in early childhood education and tonnes of experience.

The four year olds love it...they're happy...they're coping very well with the whole school thingy. Parents are happy. It was a good decision after all. It didn't result in systemic failure. I am so surprised.

On the home front: yes, traditionally it has been done by parents up until now. Top third drive their parents onto discussions and activities and generate their own learning experiences and seem to thrive regardless of environment. They learn by investigating and *osmosis*. They will even make the worst teachers look positively brilliant. Middles benefit from input. They'll pick up on most things visually and orally...with help. Lows ...well...they've seen scissors...they just can't work out which hand to hold it in...little snips for control...which side cuts....that their hands won't fit into the small hole/big hole if they're holding it wrong..they may not have the hand strength....they need a lot of chatter about things and hands-on activities. They're not going to pick up on things without explicit help and intervention. I don't blame parents for a lack of scissor cutting skills unless there's obvious parental neglect and they have no lunches etc...there's something else happening in most cases and they needed occupational therapy perhaps...which they will get...but may have needed earlier.

I don't think there's a problem with staying at home. We coped without having prep. I feel sad that parents are missing out...we get so much joy from them. There's no doubt that prep is fun for children...but will we see an emotional impact later...resillience, self-concept...and so on? What impact will it have on family dynamics? What about those important parenting aspects that school can't replicate? I can see pros and cons.

On drilling your child into numbers and reading: research shows that many plateau at seven...despite gifted intervention programs and rich learning tasks and enormous teacher direction and input for individualised programs . It seems that rote learning loses effect and benefit over time as task complexity increases ..a splinter learning effect. It's not burn-out/or lack of continued support after entering school from the homefront (we have our own myths on this one)... or boredom (unhappy children produce unhappy teachers...try boring your own children and see how long you can stand it...it's very instructional...how high is your pain threshold? If you have to bore them (strengths and weaknesses exist)...you'd better trade nicely for their cooperation by finding something very high incentive in terms of learning. I get it wrong every now and then...and it's a dimension of suffering I prefer to avoid). That's not to say that hurricane classrooms don't exist or even hurricane schools.

Rote can be beneficial for initial or superficial learning ...reading comprehension and understanding actually has a lot to do with oral and social comprehension. It's not wrong to teach kids the alphabet and reading...it's not wrong not to. All things in balance.

[TheyCallMeMom]

wow

so much to comment on

I think the quote by pres. Benson was perfectly stated..

and RuthieChan's first line.. The problem comes in when people believe that only schools are responsible for teaching academics.

we are so busy prepping our kids, we arent letting them BE kids..

my children learned all those skills you speak of.... outside of the school setting

[fish4kitty]

My wife and I have sent all but our youngest to a Christian based pre school. (she will be going in the fall) My oldest daughter will probably be the Valedictorian for her class. My youngest son is at the top 15% of his class with time to get up there. I believe that getting a jump on education (at home) early helps a lot. Read to and teach the children to read and write (so people can read it) at home before they go to pre school. If they can read early they will soak information up early.

[WANDERER]

Ummm, I guess it's a nonissue here...it's school...school just happens to start with the first grade being prep for four year olds...report cards, parent interviews, uniforms, curriculum and all the other aspects of school are there. There are private school options available for those who wish to send them to a catholic/anglican/whatever or just private with no affiliation. The Christian schools do faith based curriculums as PC said (my sister showed me the themes she did: stuff like 'God loves you' might be the theme and all the learning activities would center around the key concept thingy....whereas state schools might call their unit of work theme: the ocean).

The government schools have religion class once a week (parental permission obtained, you can choose not to attend). The kids do Bible stories and songs for a half hour...they love having religion class... and it was quite funny because we were talking about space the other day and they all told me God made the universe. I wasn't expecting that...30 excited little voices had all forgotten the hands up rule and were all shouting out the answer as loudly as they could, "God made the Earth and the Sun and the planets". They did a complete inventory for me before they would settle and we went on with learning about the planets and the new solar system LOL. I have to model a safe and supportive environment where children feel free to express their beliefs and values and so on (with respect towards others). I try. We also have a school chaplain..so I guess community values show.

[peanutgallery]

I never sent any of mine to preschool. They have so many years to go to school and so few to be home with me. They got plenty of social interaction with kids at church. My kids go to a French immersion school now. They all started in 1st grade and are doing just as well as their peers who started as young as 3 years old.

[NateHowe]

As an educator, I can see definite benefits to preschool. We're talking a couple of times a week - not a daycare situation. However, parental involvement in education at home is far more beneficial than any structured program. No structured program can be successful without it. In other words, if you send your kids to preschool and fail to reinforce the concepts taught there, you are essentially paying for nothing more than babysitting. In nearly every case, I would rather have a Kindergartener with parents who read to him every night than one that had two years of the best preschool without the benefit of parents who care enough to participate.

[scdoyle]

An interesting thing happened yesterday at church. My wife is a primary teacher and only has a couple of of students in her class. Well, yesterday none of her students came to church, so she went to help out with the sunbeam class since one of their teachers was absent and it is a huge class. With the exception of our 4-year old she said the kids would not stay in their seats, kept taking and not paying attention to the lesson. Being totally out of control. Toward the end of class she asked the kids if any of them went to preschool. How many do you think said they went to preschool? None, with the exception of our son. If that doesn't say something about preschool....

Edited July 21, 2008 by scdoyle

[Stacey_Jay]

I dont have children myself, but our education system works differently. Here, kids go to nursery at around 2 years old. they start school at 4, in reception which is i suppose the american version of kindergarten. I would definitely send my children to nursery as I would not want them to be at a disadvantage when they start school. I think English kids start school earlier than most countries but I think its the best way. We have an American girl in our ward and she said the english education is much better than what she had in the states. She said you could almost get through school without even looking at a map!!!! I thought she was joking at first. So based on that analysis, I would send my kids to nursery. Its only 2 or 3 half days a week anyway.