Justice vs. Mercy

[guitarwizard]

We read in Alma 42 (the last real chapter of Alma prior to the war IMO) that justice would have us damned forever due to our sins. But, the atonement of Christ brings mercy, and that mercy is able to overtake justice and bring the penitent soul to salvation.

My question is: How?! How can mercy make justice take a back seat?

So, if you would just do this for me: post your answer prior to reading others responses. Think of it as a thought experiment, or a test. I want to see everyones opinions without them being affected by others.

So how can Christ's atonement fulfill justice, and if justice isn't fulfilled, how does mercy overtake justice?

[Vort]

Mercy cannot rob justice, as the scriptures make clear. Rather, the merciful person withholds his just demands, and when a price must be paid for justice's sake, the merciful might pay that price.

[WANDERER]

The Beatitudes (the commandments of the NT):Mathew 5 on God's love

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?

It also has this verse:

16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Edited August 13, 2008 by WANDERER

[Connie]

My understanding is that it's not mercy that makes justice "take a backseat," it's the atonement. As in Alma 42:15, it's the atonement that "appeases the demands of justice" and "brings to pass the plan of mercy." Christ suffered for our sins, thus satisfying justice which says "someone has to pay" and bringing about mercy if we accept his sacrifice. But as in Alma 12:33-34, we have "claim on mercy" only through accepting Christ's atonement--repenting and following Christ. Alma 42:23, "mercy cometh BECAUSE of the atonement." Therefore, if we don't accept the atonement, then we get the full demands of justice.

[bytor2112]

An exerpt from Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

This sacred spot, like Eden where Adam dwelt, like Sinai from whence Jehovah gave his laws, like Calvary where the Son of God gave his life a ransom for many, this holy ground is where the Sinless Son of the Everlasting Father took upon himself the sins of all men on condition of repentance.

We do not know, we cannot tell, no mortal mind can conceive the full import of what Christ did in Gethsemane.

We know he sweat great gouts of blood from every pore as he drained the dregs of that bitter cup his Father had given him.

We know he suffered, both body and spirit, more than it is possible for man to suffer, except it be unto death.

We know that in some way, incomprehensible to us, his suffering satisfied the demands of justice, ransomed penitent souls from the pains and penalties of sin, and made mercy available to those who believe in his holy name.

[guitarwizard]

An exerpt from Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

We know that in some way, incomprehensible to us, his suffering satisfied the demands of justice, ransomed penitent souls from the pains and penalties of sin, and made mercy available to those who believe in his holy name.

So we cannot begin to understand how the atonement satisfied justice?

[Heavenguard]

In the OT times, justice demanded the sacrifices of animals in place of people for their sins. That alone was merciful, as people did not have to suffer the direct consequences of their actions. (Poor animals, though.) God's mercy meant that he sent Jesus, his Son, to be that sacrifice once and for all for all humanity.

Justice is still needed, God still demands righteousness from us. But we who cannot reach that are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, whose sacrifice is great enough for all. His mercy is his willingness to look upon Jesus and accept him in our place.That is why people who do not have Jesus are given the Justice side of things rather than Mercy, because they do not have Jesus to pay for their sins.

[bytor2112]

So we cannot begin to understand how the atonement satisfied justice?

I believe he is referring to the process by which the Saviors suffering satisfied the demands of justice. I don't understand how he did it, I just know that he did.....thankfully.

[bytor2112]

More from Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

Now, the atonement of Christ is the most basic and fundamental doctrine of the gospel, and it is the least understood of all our revealed truths.

Many of us have a superficial knowledge and rely upon the Lord and his goodness to see us through the trials and perils of life.

But if we are to have faith like Enoch and Elijah we must believe what they believed, know what they knew, and live as they lived.

May I invite you to join with me in gaining a sound and sure knowledge of the Atonement.

We must cast aside the philosophies of men and the wisdom of the wise and hearken to that Spirit which is given to us to guide us into all truth.

We must search the scriptures, accepting them as the mind and will and voice of the Lord and the very power of God unto salvation.

As we read, ponder, and pray, there will come into our minds a view of the three gardens of God—the Garden of Eden, the Garden of Gethsemane, and the Garden of the Empty Tomb where Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

In Eden we will see all things created in a paradisiacal state—without death, without procreation, without probationary experiences.

We will come to know that such a creation, now unknown to man, was the only way to provide for the Fall.

We will then see Adam and Eve, the first man and the first woman, step down from their state of immortal and paradisiacal glory to become the first mortal flesh on earth.

Mortality, including as it does procreation and death, will enter the world. And because of transgression a probationary estate of trial and testing will begin.

Then in Gethsemane we will see the Son of God ransom man from the temporal and spiritual death that came to us because of the Fall.

And finally, before an empty tomb, we will come to know that Christ our Lord has burst the bands of death and stands forever triumphant over the grave.

Thus, Creation is father to the Fall; and by the Fall came mortality and death; and by Christ came immortality and eternal life.

If there had been no fall of Adam, by which cometh death, there could have been no atonement of Christ, by which cometh life.

And now, as pertaining to this perfect atonement, wrought by the shedding of the blood of God—I testify that it took place in Gethsemane and at Golgotha, and as pertaining to Jesus Christ, I testify that he is the Son of the Living God and was crucified for the sins of the world. He is our Lord, our God, and our King. This I know of myself independent of any other person.

I am one of his witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears.

But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way.

God grant that all of us may walk in the light as God our Father is in the light so that, according to the promises, the blood of Jesus Christ his Son will cleanse us from all sin.

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, amen.

[Connie]

So we cannot begin to understand how the atonement satisfied justice?

Christ suffered in place of us, what else is there to know?

[bytor2112]

In the OT times, justice demanded the sacrifices of animals in place of people for their sins. That alone was merciful, as people did not have to suffer the direct consequences of their actions. (Poor animals, though.) God's mercy meant that he sent Jesus, his Son, to be that sacrifice once and for all for all humanity.

Justice is still needed, God still demands righteousness from us. But we who cannot reach that are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, whose sacrifice is great enough for all. His mercy is his willingness to look upon Jesus and accept him in our place.That is why people who do not have Jesus are given the Justice side of things rather than Mercy, because they do not have Jesus to pay for their sins.

The sacrifice of the firstlings of their flocks in Old Testament times from Adam forward was done as a similitude of the sacrifice of the Savior.

From Moses Ch.5 verses 5-8

5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.

6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.

8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore

[NeuroTypical]

We read in Alma 42 (the last real chapter of Alma prior to the war IMO) that justice would have us damned forever due to our sins. But, the atonement of Christ brings mercy, and that mercy is able to overtake justice and bring the penitent soul to salvation.

My question is: How?! How can mercy make justice take a back seat?

This is a biggie for me, as several people I love are spending lives carrying scars and burdens placed on them by other people, and it is impossible to have perfect justice done here on earth.

Your answer is this: Justice WILL NOT take a back seat. Through Christ's atonement, a perfect blend of mercy and justice is possible. Now, I believe that, but I don't really know what it will look like or how it will work. I'm reasonably certain it has something to do with forgiveness as well. Sin cannot exist in God's presence. So, if both the offender and the victim are to live with God, one must pay the price, and the other must forgive. Because failure to forgive is also a sin.

post your answer prior to reading others responses. Think of it as a thought experiment, or a test.

Done.

LM

[HiJolly]

We read in Alma 42 (the last real chapter of Alma prior to the war IMO) that justice would have us damned forever due to our sins. But, the atonement of Christ brings mercy, and that mercy is able to overtake justice and bring the penitent soul to salvation.

Right.

My question is: How?! How can mercy make justice take a back seat?

"take a back seat" is not helpful imagry, BTW. God has many attributes. Justice is one of these. It is a limiting attribute, where it's opposite, Mercy, is a abundant, or bestowing attribute of God. Justice never ceases its demand of us. Never.

Yet Mercy can meet those demands, due to another attribute of Godliness, which brings atonement into the picture. That atonement through Christ mediates between all oppositional limitations and abundances, not just Justice and Mercy --- though these are certainly the principles we usually think of.

So how can Christ's atonement fulfill justice, and if justice isn't fulfilled, how does mercy overtake justice?

It is a mystery of heaven, and can only be revealed as any other mystery is revealed. AND, mercy doesn't so much overtake justice, as meets it. Only through the atonement of Christ.

HiJolly

Edited August 13, 2008 by HiJolly
eliminate stupid comment

[bytor2112]

The Atonement satisfied the demands of justice....on conditions of repentance. The Savior paid the price that all humankind may have life everlasting and opened the gaits that lead to Eternal life of which all humankind may obtain if we are faithful and make and keep sacred covenants. Edited August 13, 2008 by bytor2112

[Guest bren1975]

We read in Alma 42 (the last real chapter of Alma prior to the war IMO) that justice would have us damned forever due to our sins. But, the atonement of Christ brings mercy, and that mercy is able to overtake justice and bring the penitent soul to salvation.

My question is: How?! How can mercy make justice take a back seat?

So, if you would just do this for me: post your answer prior to reading others responses. Think of it as a thought experiment, or a test. I want to see everyones opinions without them being affected by others.

So how can Christ's atonement fulfill justice, and if justice isn't fulfilled, how does mercy overtake justice?

I just taught this lesson in Gospel Doctrine. Mercy doesn't overtake justice; it satisfies it. According to the Institute Manual, justice is:

"The unalterable decree of God that sin and righteousness bring their own consequences. Justice requires that there be a blessing for every obedience to the law, and a punishment for every violation."

Therefore, for every sin I commit, a price must be paid. If I repent, then Christ's atonement pays the price. If I don't, then I will have to pay it. Justice will be satisfied, either way.

We all are subject to justice--we have no choice. We DO have the choice to utilize mercy, through repentance.

BTW--I wrote this before reading the other responses, just as you asked.:)

[Bookmeister]

Alma discussed this in Alma 33, when he referred to the teachings of Zenos. In verse 13, for instance, judgments are turned away because of HF's Son. Otherwise, without the last and greatest sacrifice (Alma 34:13) of Jesus Christ, the need to continue "spilling blood" in atonement for transgressions would have to continue under the Law of Moses. In Alma 34:15 it reads "And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance."

As long as one has "faith unto repentance", then the quality of mercy satisfies the demands of justice. So, instead of each of us having to offer up our own blood to atone for our sins and transgressions, as would be demanded strictly by the requirements of justice, the sacrifice of Jesus bestows upon each of us the mercy which acts to overcome or otherwise fulfill the demands of justice...so long as we maintain our "faith unto repentance".

Or something like that.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Bookmeister
typos

[Moksha]

Jesus reassured us that if we are merciful we will receive mercy.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Moksha
long lines at Wal-Mart

[funkymonkey]

If I repent, then Christ's atonement pays the price. If I don't, then I will have to pay it.

I often times find myself not feeling worthy to use Christ's atonement, and try to "pay" for them myself... but I guess it doesn't really work that way!

[bytor2112]

I often times find myself not feeling worthy to use Christ's atonement, and try to "pay" for them myself... but I guess it doesn't really work that way!

That's what is so awesome about the Sacrament each Sunday, we renew......:)

[Misshalfway]

Mercy never overtakes justice.....mercy satisfies justice. If it did in fact overtake justice, then there would be no need for a great and last sacrifice.

[Guest bren1975]

I often times find myself not feeling worthy to use Christ's atonement, and try to "pay" for them myself... but I guess it doesn't really work that way!

That's right.:)

[Guest tomk]

We read in Alma 42 (the last real chapter of Alma prior to the war IMO) that justice would have us damned forever due to our sins. But, the atonement of Christ brings mercy, and that mercy is able to overtake justice and bring the penitent soul to salvation.

My question is: How?! How can mercy make justice take a back seat?

So, if you would just do this for me: post your answer prior to reading others responses. Think of it as a thought experiment, or a test. I want to see everyones opinions without them being affected by others.

So how can Christ's atonement fulfill justice, and if justice isn't fulfilled, how does mercy overtake justice?

Christ offers NEW TERMS.

He paid the price that Justice would require of us.

He then turns around and offers us NEW TERMS we can abide by (since perfect performance is not possible)

If we abide by HIS NEW TERMS -- we can have Hope. Hope of a glorious resurrection. Hope of our exaltation.

But we must STAY CLOSE to Him and OBEY HIM. We are "safe" only if we are in His arms. We must be careful...not everyone who claims Christ is being truthful. He alone knows our hearts and minds and if we are really seeking Him. We might deceive others by our outward appearance, but we cannot fool Him.

[bytor2112]

Christ offers NEW TERMS.

He paid the price that Justice would require of us.

He then turns around and offers us NEW TERMS we can abide by (since perfect performance is not possible)

If we abide by HIS NEW TERMS -- we can have Hope. Hope of a glorious resurrection. Hope of our exaltation.

But we must STAY CLOSE to Him and OBEY HIM. We are "safe" only if we are in His arms. We must be careful...not everyone who claims Christ is being truthful. He alone knows our hearts and minds and if we are really seeking Him. We might deceive others by our outward appearance, but we cannot fool Him.

Are we always seeking Christ? That is an interesting question. I am not sure that I could honestly answer yes. I try to live the Gospel as I understand it....but I fall short in alot of ways. Will the Savior view my efforts as sufficient or as feeble attempts? Am I really a different and better person today than I was three and a half years ago when I started this spiritual journey......yes I think so. But, what about weaknesses? What about the seemingly small temptations that I sometimes give in to... all to frequently. How will the Savior view that, will he still embrace me and plead for me before the Father? Was my Stake President right when he said that the Lord had accepted my repentance? Have I truely had a "might change of heart?" Or do the chinks in my armour suggest otherwise?

I often worry about these questions and more. I have ebbs and flows and peaks in valleys in my passion for the Gospel. Sometimes I am on fire and so resolute and sometimes I am a bit complacent......not commiting major trangressions mind you, but just not as sure footed on the climb. When I watch conference I am usually affected in a couple of different ways......the first is the thought that I am doomed, I am never going to be like these guys and then finally the realization that I don't have to be and then I resolve to try harder, to be better, to love more, to pray more, to be a better friend, to resist and defeat the last of the sins and temptations that I seem to cling to....most of which are in the theater of the mind. In the end, will the Savior see the fight I have fought, the momentus struggles and battles I have waged, the efforts filled with victories and defeats as a measure of how hard I have tried to come unto him and recieve of his love and mercy? I have faith that it is so.........I think this is how we grow and it must be this way.

[Hemidakota]

We read in Alma 42 (the last real chapter of Alma prior to the war IMO) that justice would have us damned forever due to our sins. But, the atonement of Christ brings mercy, and that mercy is able to overtake justice and bring the penitent soul to salvation.

My question is: How?! How can mercy make justice take a back seat?

So, if you would just do this for me: post your answer prior to reading others responses. Think of it as a thought experiment, or a test. I want to see everyones opinions without them being affected by others.

So how can Christ's atonement fulfill justice, and if justice isn't fulfilled, how does mercy overtake justice?

You need to ask yourself, what reference to the term 'justice' is Alma referring too. Who are these justice embodied members of the universe?

[bytor2112]

He then turns around and offers us NEW TERMS we can abide by (since perfect performance is not possible)

Since the Savior grew from grace to grace and had to work out his salvation and was sinless....why is mankind so unable to remain sinless also?