Recommended Posts

  • Replies 212
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

How old was Joseph Smith Jr. when he "figured that out"? Joseph Smith was 24 years old when the Book of Mormon was first published. I don't think he even touched on the subject of a plurality of gods until March 20, 1839 (the early Nauvoo, Illinois period). So, I'm curious to know why you would mis-characterize JS as "a young farm boy" when clearly this is not the case.

I mean that the information was not available to Joseph Smith, and that he was basically uneducated for much of his life.

Meanwhile, scholars with big degrees have been studying the Bible and Ancient Near East for centuries, but only in the last few decades have they, as a group, begun to learn that Joseph was right on this one.

As for the question of plurality of gods and Isaiah 43:10, this is Yahweh (son of Elohim, who was given Israel as his kingdom to rule) telling us that he is the first and last ruler of Israel. Next door in Canaan, their god fell and was replaced by Baal.

Isaiah 43:

1 But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

....

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

14 ¶ Thus saith the Lord, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships

We have here Yahweh speaking to the people of Israel, and no one else. He references other nations that have competing gods that are falling. He even explains that he has overcome the gods of Babylon and the Chaldeans. He is stating that he is stronger than them all, while those gods have been known to fall (as mentioned above).

Context is extremely important in understanding the Bible. It is too easy to take a verse out of context, ignoring the real meaning of the scripture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sure; we will come to understanding in our days the true meaning behind this title: JESUS CHRIST. I am not referring too our elder brother, Jehovah [not to take away from Him is stand at our head]; the importunacy of this name may give us a greater understanding whom that all us look forward too in our eternal progression. I do believe it goes beyond this earth and our FATHER’s dominion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I marvel at how far some folks go in taking a verse out of context in an effort to obscure one of the most beautiful teachings to come out of the bible. And in this case it is compounded because it's an old "standard" anti-mormon charge rather than being original with the one who posted it.

Old Tex

I marveled how many in the church will appease the world or sensored what is truth. :mad:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I can expound. I think its more likely the man was blinded so the people could see God having victory over evil than to think the man was blinded because billions or how many years ago he sinned in a previous life.

Edit- By the way, I do believe in pre-existence, I just don't see any scriptural evidence for it.

I agree with you. The Bible does not teach the LDS concept. If a person wants to know about the preexistence, I'd point them to latter-day revelation rather than the Bible.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sure; we will come to understanding in our days the true meaning behind this title: JESUS CHRIST. I am not referring too our elder brother, Jehovah [not to take away from Him is stand at our head]; the importunacy of this name may give us a greater understanding whom that all us look forward too in our eternal progression. I do believe it goes beyond this earth and our FATHER’s dominion.

If I'm understanding you (and if so, I agree), you are referring to the concept that in baptism and Sacrament we "take upon" ourselves the name of Christ.

The name "Jesus" is short for Yehoshua/Joshua and means "God/YHWH saves". The name "Christ" is Greek "Khristos" for "Anointed one."

When Jesus makes us "kings and priests unto the God and his Father" (Rev 1:5-6), we will be anointed and become a savior (Jesus is Savior with a capital "S"). We can save others through preaching to them, take our ancestral dead to the temple for baptism, etc. And we are anointed to be "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ."

Hemi, is this what you were thinking?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I'm understanding you (and if so, I agree), you are referring to the concept that in baptism and Sacrament we "take upon" ourselves the name of Christ.

The name "Jesus" is short for Yehoshua/Joshua and means "God/YHWH saves". The name "Christ" is Greek "Khristos" for "Anointed one."

When Jesus makes us "kings and priests unto the God and his Father" (Rev 1:5-6), we will be anointed and become a savior (Jesus is Savior with a capital "S"). We can save others through preaching to them, take our ancestral dead to the temple for baptism, etc. And we are anointed to be "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ."

Hemi, is this what you were thinking?

Dang. I want to serve in a Bishopbric or Stake Presidency with you and Hemi. :wub:

HiJolly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the question of plurality of gods and Isaiah 43:10, this is Yahweh (son of Elohim, who was given Israel as his kingdom to rule) telling us that he is the first and last ruler of Israel. Next door in Canaan, their god fell and was replaced by Baal.

Ugh. I must disagree with you vocally on this. No. The bible doesn't state God is just the God of Israel. Genesis is very specific in pointing out God as the creator and organizer of everything. That's the overarching theme for Genesis and Numbers (All those begats are not just random items. They draw the conclusion that we are all part of a massive family).

This sort of reasoning you're putting is just wrong and would -definitely- be pointed to by much of mainstream Christianity as heresy. Because it is. For those who know me, I have never... Ever... Used the word heresy. I have called people misled. I have disagreed with them. This is actual, full fledged, dyed in the wool heresy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ugh. I must disagree with you vocally on this. No. The bible doesn't state God is just the God of Israel. Genesis is very specific in pointing out God as the creator and organizer of everything. That's the overarching theme for Genesis and Numbers (All those begats are not just random items. They draw the conclusion that we are all part of a massive family).

This sort of reasoning you're putting is just wrong and would -definitely- be pointed to by much of mainstream Christianity as heresy. Because it is. For those who know me, I have never... Ever... Used the word heresy. I have called people misled. I have disagreed with them. This is actual, full fledged, dyed in the wool heresy.

It's an unusual but justified view of things, FT. Ram's been reading scholarly books again-- which often leads to heresy. Guess that's why I'm somewhat of a heretic, too. Well, that and a few revelations I had...

There's a lot in the scriptures we don't know about. Perhaps if you spoke Hebrew and could contextualize it from the time it was written, you'd be surprised at what is there.

(musing sort of to myself) It's interesting how our perspective on scripture changes, when we begin to be a prophet ourselves...

HiJolly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Bible actually supports the concept of a divine council led by El Elyon/Elohim, who IS the God of all the universe. Ancient tradition stated he had 70 divine sons, and he divided the earthly inheritance among all 70 (see the 70 families in the division after the Flood). Yahweh, as eldest and best son, was given the top prize of Israel.

Later, as many of the other divine beings lost their rule, Yahweh stepped up and became God of the earth. Later Jews updated the Torah to combine Elohim and Yahweh into one being, which started the concept of monotheism in Israel. It did not start with Moses, btw, but later on.

Isaiah 6 is an example of this divine council, with the seraphim as divine children of El, sitting at his throne. Isaiah is representative of Christ in accepting the call to be sent.

Job 1 tells us about Lucifer and other divine sons going into heaven to challenge Yahweh on his rule over Israel.

There are more examples, if you'd like. The reality is, the evidence of a divine council is strong, and that there were divisions and struggles in that divine council. We see it in Moses 4:1-4, as well. It is LDS and early Jewish belief.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is my belief that most of those other gods in other nations mentioned in the Bible are the different names and faces of Satan since those other gods led the people away from the belief in their Savior and righteous living.

We know that God would send different prophets in various countries to preach the Gospel which is intended for everyone. Christ's sacrifice is for everyone. However, this does not stop people from following other paths, including false ones, either by choice, lack of understanding/knowledge or because of the choices their parents made thus causing them to be taught and follow false traditions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I'm understanding you (and if so, I agree), you are referring to the concept that in baptism and Sacrament we "take upon" ourselves the name of Christ.

The name "Jesus" is short for Yehoshua/Joshua and means "God/YHWH saves". The name "Christ" is Greek "Khristos" for "Anointed one."

When Jesus makes us "kings and priests unto the God and his Father" (Rev 1:5-6), we will be anointed and become a savior (Jesus is Savior with a capital "S"). We can save others through preaching to them, take our ancestral dead to the temple for baptism, etc. And we are anointed to be "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ."

Hemi, is this what you were thinking?

I was looking at it as passing a title from a GOD or FATHER, to HIS first born son, acting in that role as a Savior for humanity. A given example, using the term’ President' for America as a title, it is given to the next elected official as he/she assumes the role. This only leaves me believe, there is a one who resides above our FATHER's dominion that may hold this as HIS true name that even evil fears most. If you notice, we do not cast out evil spirits in the name of Jehovah but in Jesus Christ.

I do expect it is the same, no matter what other earth in other galaxies, we will find the title - JESUS CHRIST - as their Savior.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[Couldn't these sons of God be angels of his that were sent to educate man and then later fell?

The title "Son of" or "Sons of" anciently designated a covenant. We see this among the LDS in our modern time - in D&D 84 in talking about the oath and covenant of the priesthood the name and title in the priesthood includes sons of Aaron and Moses; which means the covenant is inclusive on the covenants of Aaron and Moses.

The title in the Old Testament concerning the sons of G-d is a most interesting consideration. They were under covenant with G-d. It is doubtful that they were spirit angles because such do not have power (breath of life) to “replenish” or have offspring.

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the reason why I didn't want to explain this, because people will get upset. I didn't mean anything bad with it. I think mormons have the right to believe how they wish. But for me this IS a big deal. I don't believe there can be other gods but God, and I don't want to learn to believe it. Just because many people tell me that it could be possible that humans could become gods, that doesn't make it the truth.

But the thing that I found most upsetting, was the fact that my missionaries denied this whole belief in multiple gods before I was baptised, even though I specifically asked them, and only told me after I had paid some of my yearly 10%.

I'm not anti-mormon. I'm still in contact with some church members, I don't courage people to leave the church.

A very large universe and being alone or being GOD, I am sure there are more than HIM, that includes HIS own FATHER or Creator. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok everyones here trying to convince me to believe that there can be multiple gods. Doesn't anyone find it even a little strange, that my missionaries denied this belief, and only after I had been baptised and paid some of my tiths told me the truth? Does this happen often? As some people refer to it "giving milk before meat".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct....even I did not know this until later on in my growth in the gospel. :)

Missionary ignorance....but it is not for them to teach anything that is not basis of missionary work. Also, I would not expect them to know it. My son is currently serving a mission and even he knows this but will not teach it. We need to learn the basics first before applying for the mysteries of heaven.

In making a simpler form of understanding: do you not have a mortal father? Does he not have a mortal father? Does your grandfather have a father? If the answer is yes, then GOD HIMSELF is not alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does this happen often? As some people refer to it "giving milk before meat".

Peter in the Recognitions said:

“The teaching of all doctrine, has a certain order, and there are some things which must be delivered first, others in the second place, and others in the third, and so all in their order; and if these things be delivered in their order, they become plain; but if they be brought forward out of order, they will seem to be spoken against reason.”

That is why he rebuked the youthful Clement for wanting “to know everything ahead of time.”

Clement of Alexandria said:

”The Mysteries of Faith are not to be disclosed indiscriminately to everyone, since not all are ready to receive the truth.”

[Nibley, Since Cumorah, The Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, vol. 7, pp. 96-97]

When Joseph Smith received revelation about the Church in these latter days.. he was NOT given a DATA DUMP into his brain so that he knew everything. Even Joseph was taught LINE UPON LINE... PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT... that took him years to gain.

You don't need to know EVERYTHING to join the Church.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok everyones here trying to convince me to believe that there can be multiple gods. Doesn't anyone find it even a little strange, that my missionaries denied this belief, and only after I had been baptised and paid some of my tiths told me the truth? Does this happen often? As some people refer to it "giving milk before meat".

Tyto:

You seem to have a problem with semantics. There is God, the Eternal Father to whom Jesus prayed and commanded us to pray to in his name. And there Jesus, The Son of God and who is also God Himself whom made the world and the things on it by commandment of the Father. If you did not know this is because you did not understand the scriptures. Jesus was The Word, and The Word was with God and the Word was God. It is in Genesis.

We worship God the Eternal Father in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ (who is also God).

You seem more interested in voicing your anger than trying to understand the doctrine as it appeared in the bible. We did not invented it. Most Christians today have not read the bible cover to cover and ignore but the most basic principles. When you tell them that a donkey spoke or a metal ax can float or that spirits can come and talk tot he living they are blown away.

Let us know what you would like to understand and we will be happy to point you in the direction of the sources. You can ask God Himself about the truths of the doctrine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Islander, yes, I am angry. You know why? Because I was lied to. I believe missionaries should be honest. I feel like I was tricked into being baptized.

I don't know what I believe in. Sometimes it seems like a good idea to just go back to LDS church and pretend nothing was ever wrong. But I can't live in a lie, pretend to believe something I don't. It would be great if I could just believe, but that's not who I am.

And for the record, I did ask God. I did feel like the church was true, I truly did. But I've learned that feelings can lead you wrong. Heart is deceitful. Ask the muslims, ask the jews, ask pagans. They ALL feel that their religion is true.

Still, if you feel that LDS is the right religion for you, than go ahead. I believe in freedom of religion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"The Olive-Tree ridiculed the Fig-Tree because, while she was green all the year round, the Fig-Tree changed its leaves with the seasons. A shower of snow fell upon them, and, finding the Olive full of foliage, it settled upon its branches and broke them down with its weight, at once despoiling it of its beauty and killing the tree. But finding the Fig-Tree denuded of leaves, the snow fell through to the ground, and did not injure it at all."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sure; we will come to understanding in our days the true meaning behind this title: JESUS CHRIST. I am not referring too our elder brother, Jehovah [not to take away from Him is stand at our head]; the importunacy of this name may give us a greater understanding whom that all us look forward too in our eternal progression. I do believe it goes beyond this earth and our FATHER’s dominion.

Is that name not used by those who take on the Savior roll? Was not our Father in Heaven called the same?

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth• the Father• do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Islander, yes, I am angry. You know why? Because I was lied to. I believe missionaries should be honest. I feel like I was tricked into being baptized.

I don't know what I believe in. Sometimes it seems like a good idea to just go back to LDS church and pretend nothing was ever wrong. But I can't live in a lie, pretend to believe something I don't. It would be great if I could just believe, but that's not who I am.

And for the record, I did ask God. I did feel like the church was true, I truly did. But I've learned that feelings can lead you wrong. Heart is deceitful. Ask the muslims, ask the jews, ask pagans. They ALL feel that their religion is true.

Still, if you feel that LDS is the right religion for you, than go ahead. I believe in freedom of religion.

I am trying to understand where the misunderstanding occurred. We do not worship multiple Gods. As I stated previously, we worship God, The Father in the name of Jesus Christ, who is the Son and also God. The word "God" in the New Testament is NOT A NAME but an adjective. It describes "Him to whom we pray or invoke His name, Him whom we worship that is Almighty.The invoked One"

Tyto, there is God The Father, Jesus Christ, The Son and The Holy Ghost. And the Holy Ghost does not lie not can he deceive for he is a messenger from the presence of God. God does not deceive and cannot lie for He would stop being God. The revelation that the Church is true is not an imagination of your heart. A witness of God's truth by the Spirit is as real as daylight. If you want to deny that in favor of your own man-made concept of what God is and is not you are free to go ahead. Again, I hear your animosity but I do not see your desire to try to understand the doctrine.

If at the end, sadly, you decide your own ideas are more accurate and relevant than God's own word and Church you can retract your membership from the Church. You can ask for your name to be taken out of the records and your tithing returned. It will be done within one month.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was looking at it as passing a title from a GOD or FATHER, to HIS first born son, acting in that role as a Savior for humanity. A given example, using the term’ President' for America as a title, it is given to the next elected official as he/she assumes the role. This only leaves me believe, there is a one who resides above our FATHER's dominion that may hold this as HIS true name that even evil fears most. If you notice, we do not cast out evil spirits in the name of Jehovah but in Jesus Christ.

I do expect it is the same, no matter what other earth in other galaxies, we will find the title - JESUS CHRIST - as their Savior.

From grace to grace.. and from exaltation to exaltation.. we'll find our way while working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Like [all] Gods have done before us. The titles God and Christ are easier looked at as priesthood offices IMO.

The thing about circles.. is that they do not have beginnings nor ends. We're in for a long trip I think.

Ok everyones here trying to convince me to believe that there can be multiple gods. Doesn't anyone find it even a little strange, that my missionaries denied this belief, and only after I had been baptised and paid some of my tiths told me the truth? Does this happen often? As some people refer to it "giving milk before meat".

In all honesty.. I had to bring it up to my missionaries. I have no problem with henotheism personally.. never have. It's in my signature.. but consider this quote 'Even when we believe the Scriptures are "without error," it's a risk to think our understanding is without error.'

What does it change? In the scheme of things it's an elegant concept and is the very essence of our existence IMHO.

Edited by bmy-
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is that name not used by those who take on the Savior roll? Was not our Father in Heaven called the same?

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth• the Father• do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Correct. It is honorary title of something that is far greater than we can imagine. I know it sounds hearsay but well worth our mortal trials in wearing out our bodies, and not forgetting, giving up our sins to be with the FATHER and HIS Son, Celestial glory. ^_^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share