Pre-life - Standing on the fence?

[HoosierGuy]

I know those of use with bodies here on earth stood on the side of Heavenly Father and Jesus in the pre-life. I know if we would have stood with Lucifer we would be here with no body but only an evil spirit.

There is something I'm confused on: in the pre-life were there some that did not take sides or stood on the fence, not on one side or the other?

Because I'm here on earth and have a body, does that mean with no doubt that I stood on the side of Heavenly Father?

Sometimes I think I stood on the fence line and that causes me to feel bad and say to myself - I have to do everything I can to show Father I stand on his side. Other times I know I stood with Father and Jesus. I know I try to stand with them now.

Because I was not born into an lds family but am a convert, does that mean I stood on the fence line? I was born into a caring and loving family tho.

Did everyone here with a body stand with Father and Jesus? Even the really bad people like dictators and murderers?

Thanks

[deseretgov]

I think that the people who stood on the fence are those with a wicked attitude. I think that Cain was the cut-off point. Cain probably agreed with Lucifer but went to the other side just because. I don't think where we were born in life indicates if we stood on the fence or not. I think it's our attitudes. Those who are more wicked(not sinful, but wicked) are those who probably stood on the fence.

[Wingnut]

Unfortunately, we don't know a whole lot about the pre-existence. This is a great discussion topic that you bring up, though. First I'd like to address this question:

Because I was not born into an lds family but am a convert, does that mean I stood on the fence line?

I don't think that really has anything to do with it. As an example: Does that mean that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and several other prophets were "fence-sitters" as well? You may respond that the Church wasn't restored yet when they were born, so it's not an accurate comparison. What about Elder Uchtdorf?

Okay, as for the rest of your inquiry, allow me to share with you the Doctrine of Wingnut. :) I like to think of the "war in heaven" as a high school football game.

• You have the players on the team (those who were super-valiant)
• You have the coach (Jesus Christ)
• You have the cheerleaders and the kids sitting in the first few rows on the 50-yard line (these are the cheerleaders and/or the people right behind the super-valiant front-liners)
• You have the people who sit on the top row of the stadium eating nachos and hot dogs, talking with each other, but not really paying attention (might this be some of us?)
• You have the rebels who are smoking pot under the bleachers (these might be the dictators and murderers you spoke of, but they still showed up)
• You have everyone in between (I suspect that this is the population of the world at large)
• You have the visiting team, and their lame-o fans on the other side of the field (Satan and the third part that fell away)

None of us really know which group we fell into. Our patriarchal blessings can often give us insight, though.

[deseretgov]

Our patriarchal blessings can often give us insight, though.

Very true.

[Traveler]

The scriptures tell us that a third part of heaven followed Lucifer. There is a little bit of misunderstanding of ancient terminology here. The ancients did not understand fractions. This third part does not mean 1/3 of heaven. What it tells us that that the pre-existence was divided into 3 parts and one part followed Satan.

So the question is – What are the other two parts? Alma chapter 13 tells us of another part of heaven. They were called the noble and great sons and daughters of G-d. Abraham chapter 3 also talks about the noble and great division. Alma chapter 13 tells us that everyone that is ordained to the Melchizedek on earth was pre-ordained in the pre-existence and was part of the noble and great sons. We also know that all that marry in the temple were also a part of the noble and great sons and daughters.

I know of nothing in the scriptures that names the other part or group. I call them the ones that did not follow Satan and did not seek a calling in the order of Melchizedek for this life.

Personally I do not think there were any “fence sitters”. All that come to earth and get a physical body chose to follow G-d. But as Alma says some exercised more faith.

It is also interesting to note that the children of men (under Noah) are divided into 3 parts as well as the resurrection divides us all into 3 parts or citizens of 3 Kingdoms.

The Traveler

[tubaloth]

The way I have heard the church always explain this, ends up coming from this scripture

Matt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Pretty much no room to sit on the fence.

[MrNirom]

No fence sitting.

But I have my own ideas as to the situations we are born into. Depending on what we desired to learn.. we would and could choose linage. There are many races.. many linages.. each having different challenges and ways of life to experience. The same goes for time periods. "The Plan" was very well thought out and we had our free agency in that plan.

[Guest tomk]

No. The Gospel is exactly the same for everyone.

[MrNirom]

Here is a concept of what others think that happend. This is just FYI.

The Ancient/Ageless Wisdom presents similar concepts but with interesting differences. It goes like this:

In the beginning of creation there were 90 billion monads that were commanded by God to take bodies and evolve through a series of lives upon the earth. One third, or 30 billion refused. They preferred to remain in "pralayic peace" until the "seventh aeon."

In other words, this rebellious third wanted the others go do the hard work, and then when peaceful enlightened conditions were achieved on the earth they would come down and enjoy the fruits of the labor of others.

This did not harmonize with the Great Plan and instead of granting the will of the rebels it is written:

"But the seven great Lords called to the greater Chohans, and with the eternal Lhas of the third cosmic heaven entered into debate.

"The dictum then went forth. The laggards in the highest sphere heard it echo through the scheme. "Not till the seventh aeon, but at the fourteenth seventh will the chance again come round. The first shall be the last and time be lost for aeons."

"The obedient Sons of Mind connected with the Sons of Heart, and evolution spiraled on its way." (Treatise on Cosmic Fire, by Alice A. Bailey, Page 26)

So instead of not participating for seven aeons, these 30 billion souls were denied bodies for 14 times 7 or 98 aeons. This will be billions of years in our time.

[bytor2112]

Past Apostles and Prophets have spoken regarding the less valiant of the pre-existence. People born in different places and different times in not so favorable circumstances could be attributed to how valiant one was in the pre-existence and I am of the opinion that there were many who were fence sitters......lots of people who just don't care.

[Wingnut]

Past Apostles and Prophets have spoken regarding the less valiant of the pre-existence. People born in different places and different times in not so favorable circumstances could be attributed to how valiant one was in the pre-existence and I am of the opinion that there were many who were fence sitters......lots of people who just don't care.

I've often thought about many of the truly "evil" people in this world (the everyday murderers as well as the Hitlers and the Stalins and the Mussolinis, etc.). It is my own personal musing to wonder if there are people in this world who chose to follow Christ's plan solely because they recognized that getting a body and ending up in the Telestial Kingdom was still better than not getting a body and ending up with Satan. Not because they agreed with Christ's plan, but solely for the purpose of obtaining a body.

[bytor2112]

I think you nailed it Wingnut........I also think it is why there are so many in the world that just don't care about anything...but themselves. But how well does Heavenly Father know his children...hence Three degrees of glory. He obviously knew that some were leaving....never to return.

[jadams_4040]

I know those of use with bodies here on earth stood on the side of Heavenly Father and Jesus in the pre-life. I know if we would have stood with Lucifer we would be here with no body but only an evil spirit.

There is something I'm confused on: in the pre-life were there some that did not take sides or stood on the fence, not on one side or the other?

Because I'm here on earth and have a body, does that mean with no doubt that I stood on the side of Heavenly Father?

Sometimes I think I stood on the fence line and that causes me to feel bad and say to myself - I have to do everything I can to show Father I stand on his side. Other times I know I stood with Father and Jesus. I know I try to stand with them now.

Because I was not born into an lds family but am a convert, does that mean I stood on the fence line? I was born into a caring and loving family tho.

Did everyone here with a body stand with Father and Jesus? Even the really bad people like dictators and murderers?

Thanks

I dont think you stood on the fence at all; I think you have been very blessed with wonderfull understandings and opportunities. and besides that , i beleive there were none that stood on the fence, it was either one way or the other. we either accepted the plan, or denied to follow. there wasnt anything in between.

[Justice]

The scriptures tell us that a third part of heaven followed Lucifer. There is a little bit of misunderstanding of ancient terminology here. The ancients did not understand fractions. This third part does not mean 1/3 of heaven. What it tells us that that the pre-existence was divided into 3 parts and one part followed Satan.

Very interesting. I never considered that before. I'll have to ponder on that. It makes sense.

[jjrogers]

When I was on my mission, I taught a girl that was told in her gift of the holy ghost blessing that she had been promised in the pre mortal life that she would be able to have the gosple and that the sisters who made those promises had kept them. So I know that being a convert can mean that you were promised the gosple.

Second, I think that we have an equal ability when it come to being wicked or righteous. So when I think of evil dictators, I think about how righteous they could have been if they had chosen that. I don't think there were fence sitters. I think the fight was bad enough that everyone chose sides. I think everyone cared about the fight. I think satan would like us to think that we were fence sitters so that he make us feel down and depressed. I truly think it is actually an attack from satan.

[Maya]

Interesting one of 3 groups.....

IMHO

I think no one was on sitting fence, but some of us were a bit uncertain what to follow. We did make up our mind about beeing born here and holding on the Plan of JK and G. Some of us ... like I said were a bit uncertain, maybe even not really cared.

In my PB it says I chose to be here at this time, when the gospel is here at its full. I dont know, I am sorry but I cant help crying as I think of this. I am so sure I was with JK, I was not doubting. Ever since I learned about JK I felt wery strongly that he takes care of me and guides me and I want him to be my best friend. But I was not born in a good family. In fact I was not born in any family at all! However I was adopted to a good family, none of these has so far become LDS. So could it be that I was a doubter in pre-exictence? I dont by that consept that says, that the strongest spirits are born in LDS families. If it were so, so why the best spirits would be born almost only in USA especially earlier?

I believe there are many good strong spirits born in LDS families, maybe even some really good and tender ones, who NEED to be sheltered, who have been so good in pre-exictence, that G would hate to loose them. But I dont think G plays favorites. He palys on our devolepment. I believe, that even a profet could be born in a non member family IF that would help him ot develope those skills he needs to develope.

I believe strong good spirits are spread everywhere, spirits that are to help others there where they live to find LDS Church and I believe I am one of those spirits, that wanted to help gathering everyone under my Fathers wings. I also believe many such people are born in Africa, Asia,... everywhere and we who are so lucky to have the gospel in our families we have the responsibility to go find those men and women. To reach out our hand and help them home!

Adversary is truely everywhere. It wont sleep, it is only waiting for a moment, one small moment, that can lame us, that can destroy us or the person who is waiting for the truth. Adversary has many ways of doing his works. One of his favorites is to hit the person inderectly. Fex through gavernements, through laws, through "common sence" or "Common practice" even through those dearest to you, through loss. How many flames have been put down by a sudden loss, loss of a child, loss of a spouse, loss of....

For many years now I been feeling that my hands are tied behind my back. And there was nothing I could do about it. I could have left the sceen, but that had not helped much, the show had gone on without me. Or I could have moved ... USA.... that had not taken the past away. Ater 15 years, now I got one hand loose.

There is so much I should do. Someone says what I do is "good work", but I still feel it is not enough. I have NOT reached my goals. I am far back the scedule. Fear is my enemy, fear of past. Dont ever let that happen to you!

[Hemidakota]

Unfortunately, we don't know a whole lot about the pre-existence. This is a great discussion topic that you bring up, though. First I'd like to address this question:

I don't think that really has anything to do with it. As an example: Does that mean that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and several other prophets were "fence-sitters" as well? You may respond that the Church wasn't restored yet when they were born, so it's not an accurate comparison. What about Elder Uchtdorf?

Okay, as for the rest of your inquiry, allow me to share with you the Doctrine of Wingnut. :) I like to think of the "war in heaven" as a high school football game.

• You have the players on the team (those who were super-valiant)
• You have the coach (Jesus Christ)
• You have the cheerleaders and the kids sitting in the first few rows on the 50-yard line (these are the cheerleaders and/or the people right behind the super-valiant front-liners)
• You have the people who sit on the top row of the stadium eating nachos and hot dogs, talking with each other, but not really paying attention (might this be some of us?)
• You have the rebels who are smoking pot under the bleachers (these might be the dictators and murderers you spoke of, but they still showed up)
• You have everyone in between (I suspect that this is the population of the world at large)
• You have the visiting team, and their lame-o fans on the other side of the field (Satan and the third part that fell away)

None of us really know which group we fell into. Our patriarchal blessings can often give us insight, though.

There is truth to those who were fence sitters...something that requires a personal answer by prayer.

Yes! You can know what your previous position prior to this mortality. It is not from the PB either.

[Moksha]

There is something I'm confused on: in the pre-life were there some that did not take sides or stood on the fence, not on one side or the other?

Sounds like you may be familiar with my theory that coffee and tea plants grew too close to the fence. Not people though, that would be absurd.

Got a kick out of that super-valiant players and the cheerleaders behind them idea:

Lean to the left

Lean to the right

Stand up

Sit down

Fight, Fight, Fight

Yea Super-Valiants!!!

:)

[NateHowe]

If we had remained on the fence, we would not have come here. The sides in that war in Heaven became so far apart, so completely opposite, that we had to consciously choose one or the other. So it may soon become in our society.

[Traveler]

Past Apostles and Prophets have spoken regarding the less valiant of the pre-existence. People born in different places and different times in not so favorable circumstances could be attributed to how valiant one was in the pre-existence and I am of the opinion that there were many who were fence sitters......lots of people who just don't care.

Some consider the circumstances into which Jesus was borne (including a society of child abusers) was not very favorable. Let us not use the standards of the world to understand such things.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

If we had remained on the fence, we would not have come here. The sides in that war in Heaven became so far apart, so completely opposite, that we had to consciously choose one or the other. So it may soon become in our society.

Was there a conversion during the second council of heaven? :)

Still, a fence sitter is not a true devoted follower of Christ but one who has to make that decision on whether to choose Lucifer or Jehovah in coming to mortality.

[skalenfehl]

Without having read all the responses, I don't believe there were fence sitters. Remember what Christ said about luke warm people in the Bible? I do believe that there were those who were very valiant and those who were barely active in their decision to follow Christ and come to the earth. There were no fence sitters.

[Wingnut]

Without having read all the responses, I don't believe there were fence sitters. Remember what Christ said about luke warm people in the Bible?

Respectfully, I disagree. He didn't say there were no lukewarm people, but rather that He didn't like them. Revelation 3

I do believe that there were those who were very valiant and those who were barely active in their decision to follow Christ and come to the earth. There were no fence sitters.

Can you explain the difference you see between "those who were barely active in their decision to follow Christ" and "fence sitters" please? I would consider the "barely active" (i.e., non-committal) one to be fence sitters. I'm interested in how you view them differently.

[Maedoc]

Respectfully, I disagree. He didn't say there were no lukewarm people, but rather that He didn't like them. Revelation 3

Can you explain the difference you see between "those who were barely active in their decision to follow Christ" and "fence sitters" please? I would consider the "barely active" (i.e., non-committal) one to be fence sitters. I'm interested in how you view them differently.

With just the fact that the people are on the earth now, we know that they made some sort of conscious effort to follow Christ. Even if they weren't extremely valiant in this conviction, I would say that removes them from fence sitter status. In my mind, a fence sitter doesn't make a decision at all. Those in the spirit world either chose to follow Heavenly Father's plan or not- no fence involved.

[a-train]

As members of the Church, we are engaged in a mighty conflict. We are at war. We have enlisted in the cause of Christ to fight against Lucifer and all that is lustful and carnal and evil in the world. We have sworn to fight alongside our friends and against our enemies, and we must not be confused in distinguishing friends from foes. As another of our ancient fellow apostles wrote: “Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” (James 4:4.)

The great war that rages on every side and which unfortunately is resulting in many casualties, some fatal, is no new thing. There was war even in heaven, when the forces of evil sought to destroy the agency of man, and when Lucifer sought to lead us away from the path of progression and advancement established by an all-wise Father.

That war is continuing on earth, and the devil is still wroth with the Church and goes forth “to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (Rev. 12:17.)

And it is now as it has always been. The Saints can only overcome him and his forces “by the blood of the Lamb, … by the word of their testimony,” and if they love “not their lives unto the death.” (Rev. 12:11.)

Now there neither are nor can be any neutrals in this war. Every member of the Church is on one side or the other. - Bruce R. McConkie Ensign 1974

Although one-third of the spirits became devils, the remaining two-thirds were not all equally valiant, there being every degree of devotion to Christ and the Father among them. The most diligent were chosen to be rulers in the kingdom (Abraham 3: 22-23). The nature of the conflict, however, is such that there could be no neutrals, then or now. - Bible Dictionary War In Heaven

On December 25, 1869, Brigham Young was asked if “Negroes” were neutral in the War in Heaven, and he declared:

“No, the Negroes were not neutral in Heaven. All took sides.” (The Church and the Negro, p.83)

-a-train